For discussion, some cross-over results.

keetskeets Posts: 19,818 ✭✭✭✭✭

I remember being at the F.U.N. Show, probably in 2003, and HRH undertook a question-answer session after the feast. What stood out to me most was his strong suggestion that collectors should use the cross-over service instead of crack/submit which seemed to be all the rage back then as markets were heating up. Above everything else he stressed the fact that in-holder submission protected the submitter against a myriad of bad results. Over the years I have taken that to heart and since then have only cracked/submitted 3-4 coins.

When PCGS first started to encapsulate SC$'s I was slow to the party, I thought it was only prudent to wait to see how they graded them and how accurately they were able to attribute the medals. After a period of a couple years I tried a few cross-overs, then some raw medals and over time I have gained confidence in their ability. Most recently I have sent some cross-over submissions to the Factory, this latest one comprised of 10 NGC encapsulated medals. I believe if we are careful in our purchases and even more careful in screening what we submit for cross-over that we can tilt the odds in our favor and be successful. This submission bears that out.

Al H.

Here are my results followed by the NGC grade and my request:

Line Items Cert # PCGS # Description Grade Country
1 1 36067407 642044 1870 SC$1 HK-15 Brass Pilgrim Jubilee Memorial MS63 USA --- MS63/same.
2 1 36067408 642696 1904 SC$1 HK-301 La. Purchase Expo Copper, BN MS64BN USA --- MS64BN/same
3 1 36067409 644063 1939 SC$1 HK-490 Gilt-Copper Golden Gate Int'l Expo MS62 USA --- MS62/any MS grade.
4 1 36067410 686192 (1939-40) SC$1 HK-494a Brass-Plated Aluminum North Carolina Dollar DNC USA --- MS66/same.
5 1 36067411 642879 1958 SC$1 HK-517 Gilt-Bronze Minnesota Statehood Cent. MS65 USA --- MS65/same.
6 1 36067412 643045 1886 SC$1 HK-601a Bronze, Type-I Albany Bicentennial, BN MS66BN USA --- MS66/any MS-PR grade.
7 1 36067413 643571 1897 SC$1 HK-833 Bickford Dollar Aluminum w/Brass Center MS66 USA --- MS66/same.
8 1 36067414 643574 (1897) SC$1 HK-836 Bickford Dollar Aluminum w/Brass MS65 USA --- MS65/same.
9 1 36067415 643641 (c.1890s) SC$1 HK-866 White Metal, Elder Confederation Dollar MS63 USA --- MS63PL/MS63.
10 1 36067416 643740 1945 SC$1 HK-910 Brass WWII Victory Medal MS63 USA --- MS63/any MS.

The choice of "same" is self-explanatory. Lines 3-6-10 crossed at the same grade even though I chose "any" because I wasn't certain how some aspects of the medals would be viewed(areas of discoloration and weak luster). The only medal that had been tried previously was Line 6 which DNC'd about eight months ago.

Line 1--- HK-15 Brass Pilgrim Jubilee Memorial(R-5). This medal is 37mm in diameter, slightly smaller than a standard dollar, and struck in Brass which tends to be harder to locate in problem free MS grades. Most medals offered for the type are silver plated copper. It was struck in 1870 to commemorate the 250th anniversary of the Landing of the Pilgrims in 1620. The celebration was held on December 21, 1870 in Plymouth, Mass. and included a speech by U.S. Senator C. Winthrop and some 900 guests attended a dinner which was followed by Ball.

Line 2 --- HK-301 La. Purchase Expo Copper(R-6). Slightly smaller at 36mm in diameter this one is a nice chocolate brown example of a difficult medal to find. I have another but it shows signs of an old cleaning, It can be found easily in silver and bronze and has a pleasant design.

Line 3 --- HK-490 Gilt-Copper Golden Gate Int'l Expo(R-8). This is a small medal at 12mm and the design was struck in about eight different alloy composition. Jeff Shevlin has a good book out about these medals. All the varieties were struck in limited numbers by a local jeweler and poor sales resulted in most of them being melted. Survivors are hard to find. I bought this one about two years ago from a store customer.

Line 4 --- (1939-40) SC$1 HK-494a Brass-Plated Aluminum North Carolina Dollar. This one is puzzling to me; it was wrongly designated on the NGC insert and despite two calls to customer service PCGS still seems to have not corrected that error. It is actually HK-294 Brass South Carolina Inter-State and West Indian Exposition from 1901-1902, listed as an R-5. Since PCGS has wrongly attributed it I can only assume they also wrongly assessed its condition, hence, the DNC.

Line 5 --- HK-517 Gilt-Bronze Minnesota Statehood Cent(R-5). I really like this modern design from 1958, originally intended sort of as a pattern or trial piece which was distributed "Uniface" and later issued as trade/advertising tokens by various merchants. They can be found easily in their various incarnations though some are scarce in better condition.

Line 6 --- HK-601a Bronze, Type-I Albany Bicentennial(R-6). Not much information is given by Hibler-Kappen about this medal aside from the fact that it was struck in 1886. I traveled to Albany this past summer and was impressed with our short stay: spectacular architecture, clean and uncrowded downtown area and a safe feeling which had us walking to dinner in the evening and strolling around after dark. One thing I learned prior to our trip is that Albany has the oldest continuous charter in the US. Not surprisingly since the area was settled by the Dutch, I believe their sister-city is Amsterdam. I think I could live there.

Lines 7 and 8 --- HK-833 Bickford Dollar Aluminum w/Brass Center(R-6)/HK-836 Bickford Dollar Aluminum w/Brass Center(R-5). Bickford Dollars are some of the more interesting medals in the catalogue and issues which really caught my attention early on. They were designed by Dana Bickford who invented an automatic knitting machine and subsequently traveled overseas in Europe to market his invention. He encountered trouble converting the various currencies and when he returned to America he went so far as to contact Mint officials in hopes of having a coin issued to solve his dilemma. A pattern was struck in the 1870's but the coin never cam to fruition.

These medals were struck in the late 1890's, eight different issues with slight design changes and different inner/outer ring combinations. The HK-833 is rare unholed and HK-836/837 with US Grant both seem more scarce than listed. At 28mm they are slightly smaller than a half-dollar.

Line 9 --- HK-866 White Metal, Elder Confederation Dollar(R-7). This medal was previously graded MS63PL by NGC and it has mirrors that offset the devices nicely. The obverse design comes from Continental Currency $40 bills and the reverse is self-explanatory, stating what was issued. There are a few different issue dates that are muled with several obverses. Origin is difficult to know for certain. Some say they were issued by Thomas Elder around the time of WWI and some say they were issued by Pro. Montroville Dickeson between 1860-1876. Whoeever and whenever, they comprise a group of interesting and lovely medals. The diameter is 39mm and this one was struck in White Metal(tin), one of several planchet types used by Dickeson and Elder.

Line 10 --- HK-910 Brass WWII Victory Medal(R-7). This is a relatively common medal, listed as an R-1 with a loop attached, many members probably own one with a ribbon still attached to the loop. We have a few in our store but finding one without the loop can be a daunting task. I bought this on eBay around 2002-3 as an XF45 and expected to see evidence of the loop being removed, but there was none. My hope was to have it in a prong holder where the rim is visible and I also asked PCGS to no "Unlooped" on the insert. The size is 36mm and what looks like rub on Liberty is actually discoloration from resting obverse down for a long time. The symbolism on this medal is really great and the reverse message is very clear.

image

Comments

  • DDODDO Posts: 18 ✭✭

    Welcome back @keets

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 16,535 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018 9:49PM

    Glad to have you back Al!

    Great so-called dollars and descriptions as always. You have a great eye. Love the Pilgrim.

  • TiborTibor Posts: 901 ✭✭✭

    @DDO said:
    Welcome back @keets

    1+

  • MANOFCOINSMANOFCOINS Posts: 10,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice well done

  • SwampboySwampboy Posts: 10,850 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Outstanding submission.
    Ya done good.
    Beautiful medals!

  • 1Mike11Mike1 Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭✭✭

    All are nice. I especially like the white metal and medal ones. I personally have had better luck with crack outs than crossovers, but I can imagine you are using the services much more often than me.

    "If you truly love rare coins then you might feel like I do...which is...F the doctors!" homerunhall

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  • StoogeStooge Posts: 4,107 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice Medals @keets
    Thanks for showing and the wonderful descriptions. Very entertaining.


    Later, Paul.
  • dpooledpoole Posts: 4,966 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Fascinating medals and stories, Keets!




    "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is you never know if they are true"--Abe Lincoln



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  • DCWDCW Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Love this one!

    Line 9 --- HK-866 White Metal, Elder Confederation Dollar(R-7). This medal was previously graded MS63PL by NGC and it has mirrors that offset the devices nicely. The obverse design comes from Continental Currency $40 bills and the reverse is self-explanatory, stating what was issued. There are a few different issue dates that are muled with several obverses. Origin is difficult to know for certain. Some say they were issued by Thomas Elder around the time of WWI and some say they were issued by Pro. Montroville Dickeson between 1860-1876. Whoeever and whenever, they comprise a group of interesting and lovely medals. The diameter is 39mm and this one was struck in White Metal(tin), one of several planchet types used by Dickeson and Elder.

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 39,718 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Superb post. Glad to see ya. Called your shop yesterday. You had a well deserved day off, I suspect. And the moderator closed my thread asking about you : ) a week or so ago.

  • CameonutCameonut Posts: 5,765 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I love all 10 pieces - you have always demonstrated a keen eye for these SC$'s. I am amazed at some of the issues you have acquired. I look for these at show but never seem to find anything but common pieces, maybe I am looking in the wrong place.

    I have a submission in across the street (free grading voucher) 11 pieces I accumulated over the years. We will see how they come back - most will go up for sale and I figured they would sell better in a holder.

    And welcome back Al - great post.

    “In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. - Thomas Jefferson

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  • spacehaydukespacehayduke Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great SCDs!


    Successful transactions with - Boosibri, lkeigwin, TomB, CRO, EagleEye, ianrussell (@GC), ThePennyLady, Broadstruck, coinsarefun, Type2, jom, ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief, Driggs, Barndog, EXOJUNKIE, WDP, tdiaz1979, ldhair

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  • jedmjedm Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for sharing. Great pics! Welcome back, I missed ya.

  • rickoricko Posts: 61,577 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very informative post... great detail and pictures. I really like the WWII Victory medal... Cheers, RickO

  • ElKevvoElKevvo Posts: 3,229 ✭✭✭

    Nice! Thanks for posting those beautiful pieces.

    K

    ANA LM and C4 Member
  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 2,231 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Quality post. Thank you for all the info you shared.

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • divecchiadivecchia Posts: 5,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Line 2 --- HK-301 La. Purchase Expo Copper(R-6). Slightly smaller at 36mm in diameter this one is a nice chocolate brown example of a difficult medal to find. I have another but it shows signs of an old cleaning, It can be found easily in silver and bronze and has a pleasant design.

    This one is my favorite. I really love the way the USA is represented on the reverse of the medal.

    Thanks for sharing.

    Donato

    Hobbyist & Collector (not an investor).
    Nolan Ryan Master Set ---- Nolan Ryan Topps Master Set
  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 6,874 ✭✭✭✭✭

    At least we know where you were for 2 months. You were writing the above post! Well written at that!

  • coinhackcoinhack Posts: 733 ✭✭✭

    Great informative post. Nice SCD's. Glad to see that you are back.

  • keetskeets Posts: 19,818 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Grading timeline for everyone who has been posting about "fast" turnaround times:
    Picked up/Delivered to PCGS --- 6:53AM, 9/20.
    Entered into the system --- 9/25, switched by PCGS from Regular to World.
    Grades posted --- 11/2, Day 29.
    TrueViews posted --- 11/7, Day 32.
    Order still in Limbo, no e-mails, phone calls or notifications from PCGS Customer Service.
    I contacted PCGS, after I mailed the package and before it arrived, to assure they were aware of the Line-4 discrepancy and was told they attached a note to the order. I called again when the grades showed at my "Account" page and was assured that, yes, they were aware of the Line-4 discrepancy.

    image
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 5,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    welcome back

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 16,535 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2018 10:58AM

    @keets Thanks for the info. How do the times compare with your previous submissions?

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 16,922 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So you just casually stroll back in with a post about SCD's! Where the heck have you been since August 28th!!!!!! :D B)

    Welcome back and the SCD's are very neat! ;)


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  • SoldiSoldi Posts: 325 ✭✭✭

    Yes, indeed on the WWII service medal. I found one years ago with a metal detector in Newark, NJ Branch Brook park.
    Bivouacked three times, by the way.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 16,535 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Soldi said:
    Yes, indeed on the WWII service medal. I found one years ago with a metal detector in Newark, NJ Branch Brook park.
    Bivouacked three times, by the way.

    Bivouacked 3 times? That's some pretty serious metal detecting!

  • SoldiSoldi Posts: 325 ✭✭✭

    The park was bivouacked three times. The Civil War, WW I and ???????????????????????????????

    That's right the 1967 RIOTS another fine showing of the american not getting their way in the city.

    I didn't live in NJ at the time. I was in Albany, NY where I was born and raised.

  • SoldiSoldi Posts: 325 ✭✭✭

    Next to my WWII medal that is a "full metal jacket" bullet that was fired and hit god knows what.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 16,535 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2018 12:18PM

    @Soldi said:
    The park was bivouacked three times. The Civil War, WW I and ???????????????????????????????

    That's right the 1967 RIOTS another fine showing of the american not getting their way in the city.

    I didn't live in NJ at the time. I was in Albany, NY where I was born and raised.

    Ah, I was thinking of the mountain climbing version if bivouacking, like camping in a bivy sack without tents.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bivouac_shelter

    A bivouac shelter is any of a variety of improvised camp site or shelter that is usually of a temporary nature, used especially by soldiers, persons engaged in scouting and mountain climbing.

  • abcde12345abcde12345 Posts: 1,385 ✭✭✭✭

    Keets sabatical is over! His forced retirement from this forum, over!
    Welcome back. It is a happy, finger snapping day!

  • Hi Keets, Welcome back and thanks for answering my question before I even had a chance to ask it. Now,




    I will send this one in as is. But, do you see a chance at an upgrade? Other than the best type of slab.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's a long time, but an NGC dealer showed me some coins he dropped off at a summer show and got back two weeks ago, they were tougher to grade but that is a long time.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 16,535 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2018 2:55PM

    @logger7 said:
    That's a long time, but an NGC dealer showed me some coins he dropped off at a summer show and got back two weeks ago, they were tougher to grade but that is a long time.

    Dropped off at NGC?

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think he said summer Baltimore; but one was a Colonial, a Barr Cent.

  • RayboRaybo Posts: 4,163 ✭✭✭✭

    Keets is back in a small way as usual. :D

    Why the long absence Keets?

  • KkathylKkathyl Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Love your SC. I still have one in a fatty. Holder. Another raw.

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