@Hemispherical said:
Sorry, OT. What is a “Lonesome John” coin?
I could google but thought it is better posted here for all to gain insight.
"Lonesome" John Devine was a prominent error dealer back in the day.
I think this coin might be a real "sandwich strike" error because it has the characteristics of uniface strikes, but I also agree with Fred that the chance of two planchets being basically in the same position on both sides is somewhat troublesome. If it were me I wouldn't buy it because I think someone would have the ability to create this exact look outside the mint. It just takes high pressure and a couple of easily obtained blank planchets.
When I first looked, just looking at the obverse by itself, my thought was "cool, double strike, 2nd off center and a mid/late counterbrockage." Then I saw the reverse, where I was expecting just a normal second strike off-center.
My thought is that it is probably (only in the sense of more likely than not) genuine. There are some unexplained marks on the reverse side. (In my view, the 2nd strike obverse is the same as the first strike obverse). So maybe a late stage brockage. And we can see a sequence making this coin in the mint. An unlikely one, but we are talking about something that could well be a one-in-a-billion or so happening.
Normal blank (no 1) struck, sticks/attaches to reverse die. Second blank (no 2) then is struck, attached to obverse die, becoming a die cap with a normal obverse, and brockage (of the obverse) reverse. Coin no 1 is now a reverse die cap, with a normal reverse, and an expanded obverse strike. Eventually, not necessarily next, coin no 3 (shown) falls partway between the two capped dies, and when struck gets a 2nd off-center strike, with a counterbrockage obverse and a brockage reverse.
But like I mentioned, I'm not really fully convinced.
Great thread... Really interesting to try and determine whether mint or PMD...I am leaning to authentic - not because I am skilled at this, but because the discussion - IMO - is leaning that way. Cheers, RickO
In the "old days" we could take a coin such as this to the Mint Lab and they would explain how it happened. In several cases, they determined that it was impossible w/o the "aid of man." Those went out as No Decision. If a collector would have sent one of these in to be checked w/o going through the "back door" with us, the pieces would have been confiscated! There was only one time when a SS Agent came to our office and asked for a particular coin
(C/F 1914-D 1c) to be surrendered. It was.
@ErrorsOnCoins said:
I know but do you. Look at the coin and figure it out. Will the TYPG's label it as such?
I think that the strength of the Y of LIBERTY and the back of the hair, and the corresponding parts of the Memorial, condemn it.
Imagine blank disk A and blank disk B positioned above and below the left side of this normally struck cent. Unless Blank Disk C is placed between the left sides of the two blank disks to hold up Blank Disk A and keep it level, the left side of Blank Disk A will drop down and rest on Blank Disk B. This tilting will cause the right side of Blank Disk A to swing up, away from the coin in general and the Y of LIBERTY in particular.
When the force is applied to squish everything together, the angle of Blank Disk A will result in less pressure on the Y of LIBERTY and the back of the hair, and on the corresponding arc on the reverse. they are crushed somewhat, but not nearly as forcefully as the far left edge of the coin.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Great point about the "Y" Tom. I totally missed that aspect. You cannot crush out a previous design (back of the coat) and leave a strong "Y" where the crush was!" That said, it is like that and either the Mint or the "alternate" Mint figured out how to do it! ??????????
Looking at the photos some more,
I don't like the thin 'line' appearance
where the original coin's design comes
up against the 'over struck' area -
What I mean is the curved area between
the two 'strikes', coming down from gOd,
and behind his head, and down to the shoulder
doesn't look right, if another planchet was laying
on top (and/or bottom) of this coin.
Same thing on the reverse - the area just to the
left of "E" in One, and going up, is too sharp - not the same
as seen in other normal uniface 2nd strikes on
either side.
Just another thought.......
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
@scubafuel said:
Agreed, it has a very convincing look as coming from a high pressure strike. Personally, I think someone found it when it was brand new and put it aside because it looked cool, allowing it to tone. Neat error
I hesitated to mention this, but it has the look of a “Lonesome John” coin. I’m sure Fred knows more about him, I just know that he was an error coin dealer in the 70s and 80s, and I’ve seen many coins in his 2x2 flips with similar toning.
Sean Reynolds
I had the pleasure of visiting John numerous times at his shop in Newbury Park back in the early 70's. The "Lonesome John" toning you're referring to was a result of his own concoction that he used to clean coins. It did not take long for copper to turn a funky, off color. Never found out what the 'magic elixer' was as I was a young teen. What can add to this post in a positive way is that John was one of the most generous people you would have had the opportunity to meet.
I had the pleasure of visiting John numerous times at his shop in Newbury Park back in the early 70's. The "Lonesome John" toning you're referring to was a result of his own concoction that he used to clean coins. It did not take long for copper to turn a funky, off color. Never found out what the 'magic elixer' was as I was a young teen. What can add to this post in a positive way is that John was one of the most generous people you would have had the opportunity to meet.
It looks like what sometimes occurs with MS70 on a RB (mostly brown) cent
I had the pleasure of visiting John numerous times at his shop in Newbury Park back in the early 70's. The "Lonesome John" toning you're referring to was a result of his own concoction that he used to clean coins. It did not take long for copper to turn a funky, off color. Never found out what the 'magic elixer' was as I was a young teen. What can add to this post in a positive way is that John was one of the most generous people you would have had the opportunity to meet.
It looks like what sometimes occurs with MS70 on a RB (mostly brown) cent
Was MS70 available back in the early 70's? The product he used only took a few minutes to remove gunk and grime from uncirculated cents. I never saw it used on silver or any Lincoln that was below AU or under. The diffused rainbow effect was evident on some coins years later.
I will be curious to see what Mike says, but I still do not like it.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Did Mike ask to view it in hand, or did he make his declaration from the photos? I've had Mike review a few errors for me over the years, in my experience he rarely makes a 100% declaration without examining the coin in person (lots of 98% assurances that were confirmed, though, he really knows his stuff).
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I respect Mike's opinion, but combined with my question
about both the top and bottom planchets laying exactly
opposite each other over the struck 1980 Cent, and his
'pretty confident', I would probably rather be safe, and
not certify it for PCGS.
Not saying it's not genuine, but I'd like to be 100% confident.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Comments
"Lonesome" John Devine was a prominent error dealer back in the day.
I think this coin might be a real "sandwich strike" error because it has the characteristics of uniface strikes, but I also agree with Fred that the chance of two planchets being basically in the same position on both sides is somewhat troublesome. If it were me I wouldn't buy it because I think someone would have the ability to create this exact look outside the mint. It just takes high pressure and a couple of easily obtained blank planchets.
When I first looked, just looking at the obverse by itself, my thought was "cool, double strike, 2nd off center and a mid/late counterbrockage." Then I saw the reverse, where I was expecting just a normal second strike off-center.
My thought is that it is probably (only in the sense of more likely than not) genuine. There are some unexplained marks on the reverse side. (In my view, the 2nd strike obverse is the same as the first strike obverse). So maybe a late stage brockage. And we can see a sequence making this coin in the mint. An unlikely one, but we are talking about something that could well be a one-in-a-billion or so happening.
Normal blank (no 1) struck, sticks/attaches to reverse die. Second blank (no 2) then is struck, attached to obverse die, becoming a die cap with a normal obverse, and brockage (of the obverse) reverse. Coin no 1 is now a reverse die cap, with a normal reverse, and an expanded obverse strike. Eventually, not necessarily next, coin no 3 (shown) falls partway between the two capped dies, and when struck gets a 2nd off-center strike, with a counterbrockage obverse and a brockage reverse.
But like I mentioned, I'm not really fully convinced.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
Easy... As when Andre The Giant was a teenager working at MC Donald's they had to take him off the cash register for pinching the change too hard
Great thread... Really interesting to try and determine whether mint or PMD...I am leaning to authentic - not because I am skilled at this, but because the discussion - IMO - is leaning that way. Cheers, RickO
In the "old days" we could take a coin such as this to the Mint Lab and they would explain how it happened. In several cases, they determined that it was impossible w/o the "aid of man." Those went out as No Decision. If a collector would have sent one of these in to be checked w/o going through the "back door" with us, the pieces would have been confiscated! There was only one time when a SS Agent
came to our office and asked for a particular coin
(C/F 1914-D 1c) to be surrendered. It was.
I think that the strength of the Y of LIBERTY and the back of the hair, and the corresponding parts of the Memorial, condemn it.
Imagine blank disk A and blank disk B positioned above and below the left side of this normally struck cent. Unless Blank Disk C is placed between the left sides of the two blank disks to hold up Blank Disk A and keep it level, the left side of Blank Disk A will drop down and rest on Blank Disk B. This tilting will cause the right side of Blank Disk A to swing up, away from the coin in general and the Y of LIBERTY in particular.
When the force is applied to squish everything together, the angle of Blank Disk A will result in less pressure on the Y of LIBERTY and the back of the hair, and on the corresponding arc on the reverse. they are crushed somewhat, but not nearly as forcefully as the far left edge of the coin.
TD
Great point about the "Y" Tom. I totally missed that aspect. You cannot crush out a previous design (back of the coat) and leave a strong "Y" where the crush was!" That said, it is like that and either the Mint or the "alternate" Mint figured out how to do it! ??????????
Looking at the photos some more,
I don't like the thin 'line' appearance
where the original coin's design comes
up against the 'over struck' area -
What I mean is the curved area between
the two 'strikes', coming down from gOd,
and behind his head, and down to the shoulder
doesn't look right, if another planchet was laying
on top (and/or bottom) of this coin.
Same thing on the reverse - the area just to the
left of "E" in One, and going up, is too sharp - not the same
as seen in other normal uniface 2nd strikes on
either side.
Just another thought.......
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
I had the pleasure of visiting John numerous times at his shop in Newbury Park back in the early 70's. The "Lonesome John" toning you're referring to was a result of his own concoction that he used to clean coins. It did not take long for copper to turn a funky, off color. Never found out what the 'magic elixer' was as I was a young teen. What can add to this post in a positive way is that John was one of the most generous people you would have had the opportunity to meet.
I really like the Rainbow "Sandwich Strike" ...... so pretty!
It looks like what sometimes occurs with MS70 on a RB (mostly brown) cent
Was MS70 available back in the early 70's? The product he used only took a few minutes to remove gunk and grime from uncirculated cents. I never saw it used on silver or any Lincoln that was below AU or under. The diffused rainbow effect was evident on some coins years later.
did I miss the post stating what you call this ErrorsOnCoins?
if you need a name, how about 'Plum Reflection'
Update ......
It is a small world.
While I was out gold mining last week, Mike Diamond contacted me about using one of my photos for an upcoming Coinworld article. I agreed to let him use my photo with the caption © CTF Error Coins.
So since he contacted me, I thought well I will ask him about this coin. I sent him photos and a link to this thread.
Mike does, in fact, believe that this is a real sandwich strike. His words "pretty confident this is a genuine sandwich strike"
So Fred, it this something you could or would certify? I am sure you have Mikes phone number
I will be curious to see what Mike says, but I still do not like it.
It's a stunning ERROR .... let us know what the verdict is will you?
As far as certification anyway, it is not up to me.
I think it IS because I said it IS
JUST because IT IS BEAUTIFUL!!!!
Is it on consignment? Fred said he saw it on eBay, but I could not find it ... any links?
I own it. Sorry as I do not do links to my purchases.
Fred saw it at auction as did Mike as did I.
I bid strong for eye appeal.
Did Mike ask to view it in hand, or did he make his declaration from the photos? I've had Mike review a few errors for me over the years, in my experience he rarely makes a 100% declaration without examining the coin in person (lots of 98% assurances that were confirmed, though, he really knows his stuff).
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Mike did not use 100% nor did he ask to see the coin in hand.
He did see the coin before I showed him my photos.
His exact words are "pretty confident"
I respect Mike's opinion, but combined with my question
about both the top and bottom planchets laying exactly
opposite each other over the struck 1980 Cent, and his
'pretty confident', I would probably rather be safe, and
not certify it for PCGS.
Not saying it's not genuine, but I'd like to be 100% confident.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Thank you for your answer Fred, as that was what I was expecting.