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Another stinker by Kershaw
craig44
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Another terrible playoff performance by Kershaw. Career WS ERA 5.49, career playoff ERA 4.28. As his stuff is rapidly deteriorating, I don't expect any of this to improve. I dont believe he threw a four seamer faster than 91 last night. He would be crazy to opt out of his contract after the year.
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The satellite TV I was watching last night went out expectedly, but after watching the highlights this morning, I must say that I enjoyed Kershaw’s performance.
Another terrible Kershaw playoff performance. I don't understand why his manager keeps starting him in Game 1s. His best playoff performance ever was a Game 2 start this year. He doesn't deserve to be the game 1 starter in the playoffs, we have enough of a playoff sample size to all see that. I think you just have to accept that Kershaw just doesn't rise to the occasion like one of the best left handed pitchers ever should and not let him pitch game 1s.
With his back injuries his stuff has suffered. I think he is going to become progressively worse as the years go by since I don't see him regaining his velocity. Not sure he can have a second act as a finesse pitcher in his early and mid 30s.
After his NLDS game 2 start I was hoping this would be the year he finally put together a playoff performance to match his regular season performances but sadly it didn't happen.
Robb
I agree. with his "stuff" is rapidly deteriorating. Fastball sat in the 88-91 range. It leaves very little room for error. when his command is not spot on, it will be a very rough night for him, especially against a tough lineup like the red sox.
This does not bode well for his second act. At 30, he should be prime, but I think we will see a massive rise in Whip, BAA and era from clayton from here on out.
He is not a playoff game one starter.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Sounds like Red Sox fans were on Kershaw all night and his pitching coach felt the need to complain about it.
https://weei.radio.com/blogs/alex-reimer/rick-honeycutt-complains-about-fenway-park-crowd-taunting-clayton-kershaw
Eric
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sounds like a delicate little snowflake. i can remember fondly being at Fenway and hearing the Darrrrryl chants at Strawberry. He was funny though and played it up.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
My only worry is we could possibly have Another Stinker By Price thread tomorrow morning. You could literally switch out their names and it would tell the same story. He was great closing out the Astros for his first career playoff win as a starter but hopefully he keeps it going. He's also admitted that he doesn't like pitching in the cold and tonight its gonna be very cold in Boston.
Eric
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yes, Price could go either way. I am hoping he has some new confidence. but, he is a snowflake as well
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
There are lots of snowflakes in California, and I don’t mean the natural ones that are in the mountains.
Eh. Kershaw wasn't great last night but, much like the "bad" game in the NLCS, he got a lot of "help" from his defense to make things worse. Dropping popups, not turning double plays, etc.
But, yeah, his stuff last night was definitely not top-shelf.
So much overall terrible play in that game - dropped popups, not running hard, 55-foot pitches, guys swinging at 55-foot pitches, guys swinging at stuff over their heads, you name it.
well, 3 more home runs given up last night in the world series. At this point in his career, and with the lack of stuff, should anyone give him a long term contract if he decides to opt out? If this is what he has at 30, what will he be working with in 3 years? 5 years?
It really is amazing that both he and Koufax at around age 30 have both been so impacted by injury. Arthritis with sandy and Kershaw's back. really too bad. I am not saying Clayton is finished, but we have most likely seen the last of
Cy Young winning Kershaw
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
As a Dodger fan it's tough to watch but Kershaw has just never figured out postseason pitching and now he is really a #2/#3 type guy. No way he opts out as he would be trading two years at $65m for maybe 5 years at $100m? Maybe!? As a Dodger fan I wouldn't sign him long term with his rapid rate of deterioration the last couple years. I don't see him reclaiming his old dominating self. I want to compare him to a guy, like Greg Maddux, who kept pitching effectively until he was about 100 but I don't see it with Kershaw. Bummer for sure. Extra hard to watch a game with him giving up the home run and knowing you got Ryan "Gas Can" Madson in the pen or maybe Kenley "Give up a Home Run Every Time and doesn't Even Seem to Care" Jansen. Long 5 games. Glad it's over.
It makes me wonder if it really is the postseason pressure that affects Kershaw or is it more the fact that in the post season pitchers are facing the best teams? I wonder if anyone has done a statistical analysis on how Kershaw has fared when facing the top say, 20% of teams during the regular season?
In another baseball forum I follow, which is more statistically oriented, I remember an old thread a guy started which analyzed Lefty Groves career against the top teams. As I recall, Mack would skip Grove for most of their Yankee series during the late 20's-30's and this greatly affected Groves ERA as he was not facing "murderers row" many times per year. While Grove was an all time great, there is an asterisk there as he sat most times against the yankees. I wonder if Kershaw has a similar story, feasting on the poor teams and not getting starts against the upper tier teams.
I am not sure about this, I was just reminded of the Grove situation.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Why was he left in so long last night? It almost looked like the Dodgers threw in the towel and threw Kershaw under the bus!
Exactly what I told my wife and daughter as we watched. It was like Dave Roberts was saying "ok, you got on me for pulling Hill too soon so let's see what Kershaw can do...." Or he was saying "Kershaw doesn't have it but my bullpen SUCKS."
Roberts has over-managed the last 2 World Series. I like him, but he's thinking too much.
Not true. Grove had 2nd most starts and appearances versus Yankees of any opponent.
sorry, it is true. for the years 1929-1931 here are groves IP totals vs. the various AL teams
Boston..............140.2
Cleveland..........140.1
Detroit...............138.2
Washington......125.2
Chicago..............124.1
St. Louis.............104.1
New York Yankees......72
In 1930, here are the innings pitched for the top three starters for the A's vs the Yankees
Earnshaw.......32.2
Walberg..........54
Grove.............16.2
Grove was feasting on the poor teams and sitting often against murderers row.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I dont know if this is turning into a Lefty Grove discussion, but if you look into his history, he was a selfish player and a terrible teammate. He on a few occasions actually left the team for weeks on end if he didnt get his way. He was an original Prima Donna. he wanted to start when and against whom he wanted to. some of his appearances were in mop up duty as a reliever so he could add wins to his total. Mack did this throughout the early 30's to placate his sulky pitcher and help him get the league lead for season wins.
some more stats. in 1928, grove was 1-6 against the NYY with a 5.44 ERA and a WHIP of 1.409. is it any wonder he did not want to face Ruth and company? He sulked and got his way for the next number of years.
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Interesting.
Kind of like Willie McCovey not playing vs Sandy Koufax(and other lefties for half of his career), making his rate stats appear better than his contributed value was.
yes, I wonder how often this has happened throughout baseball history and hasn't been noticed? I'm sure there are other examples.
a last point on Grove. His rate stats are also elevated because he also never had to face the second best offensive team of the era, the team he pitched on, the Phila A's.
I read as well that Mantle's career OPS+ was elevated by 3 points because he never had to face the Yankees. Pretty interesting stuff.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
you know what they say about lefties , they never do anything right
Well, he obviously made up for it in other years
well, not so much. really only after the the Yankees offensive machine of the twenties early thirties.
here are Groves ERA and Whips against the Yankees (When he actually faced them) during the 20's-mid 30's
1927 5.18......1.600
1928 5.44......1.409
1929 2.70......1.140
1930 4.86.......1.740
1931 4.15.......1.477
1932 5.27........1.463
1933 4.41........1.500
1934 15.00.......3.500
these were almost all years where his ERA was under three.
this is the reason Grove threw baby fits and didnt want to face the Yankees. He was known to walk out on his team for up to 2 weeks at a time if he didnt get his way. he picked it up against the yankees after Ruth retired and the murderers row era was over. He was a horrible teammate and selfish player who also was known to vulture wins as a reliever. you will notice a number of relief appearances he made.
He also did not have to face the second best hitting team of his era, the team he played for the Phila A's
by the way, his lifetime era against the Yankees was his worst against any opposing team 3.85
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I find it telling that Kershaw and the Dodgers have extended his deadline for opting out a few days. If he was confident in his ability to pitch as a cy young contender and thus be able to command a long term contract at similar or more money than he is earning now, he would opt out. as it appears they are at a stalemate, he is seemingly not confident that he can return to be that player again.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I imagine they are trying to work out an extension that cuts his salary on a yearly basis but extends well past 2 years. Kershaw's deterioration has been sad to watch. He was my favorite pitcher for years but the back injury has really taken a toll.
Robb
objection overruled hearsay
All this crap happened 90 some odd years ago , can you at least trash someone that played while you were alive?
Kershaw gave the Dodgers all he had for years, he got hurt and should not be persecuted by everybody for it.
EVERY top pitcher in that era piled up wins as a reliever. Grove had 32. Dizzy Dean, in far less time, had 12. Waite Hoyt had 40. Dazzy Vance had 13. Carl Hubbell had 20. Guys were expected to do it. What's Grove supposed to do, say "Nah, that's alright Connie, I don't want to help the team win today"?
Not trashing, being pragmatic. Is there a moratorium on being able to honestly discuss a player before they turn into a hero to be praised and honored? people don't have much of a problem discussing other old timey ballplayers and their poor traits like Adrian Anson and Cobb. Or are we only allowed to discuss players who were active during our lifetime? that we saw on TV? Only allowed to discuss players we witnessed in person? How much longer are we allowed to discuss PED use? The last I knew, this was a sports talk discussion forum.
By the way, not hearsay, Check out TSN's of the time and read Jim Kaplan's book on Grove to start. You will come across the term "Grovian" It meant to throw a tantrum.
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sure but all you seem to do is blow into town once a month to throw someone under the bus , and back over them a dozen times.
Even the sports writers of the day knew what was going on with Grove. They knew he was mopping up wins just to lead the league. Here are the top three MVP vote getters for pitchers in 1930 and the numbers that would have counted most then:
Ted Lyons 22-15 3.78 7th place team
Wes Farrell 25-13 3.31 4th place team
Lefty Grove 28-5 2.54 1st place team led league in both wins and era
in TSN MVP race: Lyons 30 votes, Farrell 29 votes and Grove with 9 votes
In the AP race: Lyons 26 votes, Farrell 25 votes and Grove with 8 votes
The writers of the time knew what was going on. Mack and the sports writers knew that if Lefty didnt lead the league or come close in wins, he would sulk or even leave the team. Can you imagine what the modern press would do to this guy?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Here is another example of Groves temperament when things didnt go his way. This story was reported by the Boston Globe:
"Mr. Grove staged one of his typical tempermental outbursts that are fast ceasing even to be slightly funny, He divided his time between tossing up his sandlot-ish balloon ball and his medium fast ball through the slot for the Crackers to take batting practice. Even the numerous local rooters didn't appreciate Mr. Grove's humor and sat in stunned silence throughout the Grovian burlesque. While little has been about the matter, it was such ructions by Mr. Grove on occasions last year that helped considerably to undermine the morale of the Yawkey forces. And the same club has been hampered enough by events beyond its control already this season not to care for any handicaps manufactured under their own steam."
This during a spring training game that Herb Pennock was managing and not all his infield starters were in the lineup. Pennock became so angry at Groves actions the he almost attacked him. Grove ended up stalking off the field.
Grove was also known to refuse to pitch at the start of the year until the weather warmed. This is confirmed when viewing his career splits. He started less than half the games in March/April than any other month of his career.
whether this all happened 90 years ago or yesterday, I think it is pertinent to an honest contextual discussion of a player.
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pertinent to Kershaw? ahh no
Seems the conversation has turned. Happens sometimes
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You started the thread then derailed it to talk about some guy that would be about 177 years old now
the thread "craiged" that's actually the technical term for what happened to it
Well, this is how you usually act when you loose an argument. To be expected.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I didn't lose any arguement because there wasn't one . I agree with the premise of the thread .
Kershaw is on the last few laps , everyone agrees .
However there is no reason to drag some totally unrelated guy through the mud who is long dead though , poor old Lefty Grove never did you any harm.
Give the guy a break. He's down to $31 M a year.
Can barely afford a chalupa at Taco Bell.