Post on behalf of realeswatcher re: fake Mexican coin in PCGS slab

WorldCoinsDmitry

Our buddy realeswatcher from CCF asked me to share his latest sleuthing find here, as he has not registered.

To quote from the original thread: " the stylized detail isn't even close to exact - nor are the surfaces"

https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/232964403056/?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true#itemTitle

With a little digging I found this coin's sister. With these bigger photos we can clearly see what realeswatcher saw in the first coin. Also, with the second example we see a wire rim, which says modern edge.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/-/232862545597?item=232862545597/&nordt=true&orig_cvip=true#itemTitle

It would appear that our hosts have a small mistake to rectify. Thoughts?

EDIT: After hearing from realeswatcher, the second piece I posted is actually the same coin prior to grading. The small ebay pictures didn't look like it, but it's visible with the enlarged cert photos.

However... r.w. provided several examples from the past, which are even better proof. Crude details aside, note the die crack going from the lion's tail puff to the rim and a bump above 1/4 on all.

And just for good measure a genuine coin as well.

Namvet69

Shouldn't our host have a way to post these fakes so that every search query brings up the fake so the whole world knows it's a counterfeit. Do we know if the slab is also a fake? Peace Roy

WorldCoinsDmitry

@Namvet69 said:
Shouldn't our host have a way to post these fakes so that every search query brings up the fake so the whole world knows it's a counterfeit. Do we know if the slab is also a fake? Peace Roy

Sure they do, but until they publicly recognize a type to be fake it's on us to do the research and report the findings

Slab appears genuine, cert checks out and photos match the coin (actually bigger and clearer photos as well) https://www.pcgs.com/cert/36045032

WorldCoinsDmitry

I'm editing the OP with some interesting new info!

Namvet69

Okay thanks WCD. Have a good day. Peace Roy

TwoKopeiki

Nice research!

WorldCoinsDmitry

@TwoKopeiki said:
Nice research!

I'll let him know you said that

OldEastside

Great Thread, so I take it that fakes have a small sombrero on the Lion rather than a crown

Steve

Zoins

Here's the cert with Gold Shield scan:

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/36045032

nealeffendi

@Namvet69 said:
Shouldn't our host have a way to post these fakes so that every search query brings up the fake so the whole world knows it's a counterfeit. Do we know if the slab is also a fake? Peace Roy

Does PCGS want their screw ups of slabbing fakes aired? My experience (as I own several counterfeits in genuine PCGS slabs) is that they will take severe actions to prevent such slabbed fakes becoming known (they pull the cert numbers and leave no clue as to why they were pulled). Then they pull the cert numbers of genuine coins you own with the threat/carrot stick of saying the genuine coin cert numbers will remain invalid until you hand over the slabs with the fakes.

Namvet69

Is that a euphamism for the carrot and a stick method of behavior modification? Peace Roy

nealeffendi

Yes it sort of is Roy (though it is less of a behavior modification method than them going heavy handed to dictate to collectors to submit to their demands or else). They also refuse to honour the 8 free submissions that they advertise is included with PCGS membership that I paid for. So now as a dark hobby I enjoy collecting the cert numbers and images of the hundreds of fakes (and many more misidentified coins) that the "experts" have graded and have them in addition to my small collection of slabbed fakes and a larger collection slabbed misidentified coins. Obviously I avoid buying the slabbed fakes but the slabbed misidentified coins are often gems (like rare varieties and proofs slabbed as common circulation coins and they often sell for 1 to 50% of their true value).

Insider2

@nealeffendi said:
Yes it sort of is Roy (though it is less of a behavior modification method than them going heavy handed to dictate to collectors to submit to their demands or else). They also refuse to honour the 8 free submissions that they advertise is included with PCGS membership that I paid for. So now as a dark hobby I enjoy collecting the cert numbers and images of the hundreds of fakes (and many more misidentified coins) that the "experts" have graded and have them in addition to my small collection of slabbed fakes and a larger collection slabbed misidentified coins. Obviously I avoid buying the slabbed fakes but the slabbed misidentified coins are often gems (like rare varieties and proofs slabbed as common circulation coins and they often sell for 1 to 50% of their true value)

I'm one of the members who gave the OP a "like." I liked the information provided in the post.

It is a fact that there are counterfeits and misattributed coins in TPGS slabs. Once, I personally called out one of you
"ex-perts" who did a post such as this. Now he is a consultant for at least two of the major grading services and his coins are being put in holders that are labeled as counterfeits. IMO, he is a very classy numismatist.

Alerting the public and TPGS to newly discovered fakes is a great help. It's too bad that only an image of the fake was posted with no mention of the TPGS. Meanwhile, the TPGS mistake could be corrected. I personally consider folks who wave around label errors, and TPGS errors as...never mind.

As to this: "Obviously I avoid buying the slabbed fakes but the slabbed misidentified coins are often gems (like rare varieties and proofs slabbed as common circulation coins and they often sell for 1 to 50% of their true value)."

LOL, big deal. It is called "Cherrypicking" and it has been going on before you or I were born! Those pieces are going to be worth a lot more than your "slabbed counterfeit collection."

nealeffendi

Of course it is called "Cherrypicking", and I do it to raw coins as well. But one of the often touted reasons to pay to get your coins slabbed is to get coins properly attributed and to have them in a form your family can sell for full value when you cark it. So you can't trust the attribution, you can't trust the grading (if you could there wouldn't be an industry built on crackouts or on getting green beans on slabs) and you certainly can't buy slabs sight unseen.
Also before they decided to get nasty i was one of those who let PCGS know of many fakes in slabs and lent PCGS a number of raw fakes struck from the same dies as fakes that had been graded.
My slabbed counterfeit collection isn't large and I don't go and intentionally purchase such fakes but keep them as a teaching aid for a very select group (basically a handful of other experts).
There are however some counterfeits that are worth a large premium to the genuine coin and sell for 10 times the value of the genuine coin (Manders florins and 1928 Swatow shillings are such highly valued fakes)