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Does anyone here collect orders and decorations?
MrEureka
Posts: 23,942 ✭✭✭✭✭
If so, I have a few stupid questions.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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No, but I'd really like to get an HSU, Hero of the Soviet Union.
No, but at a recent book sale, I just bought someone's library of British decorations for like $20. So now I have the info.
We deal in them, what questions do you have?
all around collector of many fine things
Yup, I collected various decorations from 1969-1972 when I had my a## in the grass in Nam. Of course use the Google and the world is your oyster. I read auction catalogues and it is a great source for history and provenance on decorations and awards. Europeans loved them some military medals. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall
I've purchased some orders and medals that (I think) were awarded in early 19th century Latin America, to complement the coins I collect from that period in history, and I'd like to buy more. My problem is that when I see items in upcoming auctions, it's rarely clear when the piece was created and awarded. Sometimes it will be said when the order was initially instituted, but it's not clear if the actual piece was created at that time or much later. Other times, there is no indication at all regarding the age of the piece.
So the stupid question is, more or less, how do you nail down the age of these pieces?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Thinking of running for public office in the USA?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Is there a particular auction house that specializes in medals from that region of the world? You know el excellente or el jefe loves him some medals. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall
Get in your time machine. Go back to the USSR in the summer and fall of 1941 and survive 10 missions flying a Sturmovik. It will be yours.
At this point in the war the expected survival rate for Sturmovik's fell as low as 1.8 missions.
Which auction house features military and regal medals of the Americas? Their catalogues usually provide rich historical details on each medal in an auction. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall
At that point in the war it was only pure luck that a pilot would survive even a couple of missions. IL-2's were just being introduced into the VVS and pilots were not very familiar with them. Most pilot losses were in Yak-1, MiG-3 and I-15 and I-16 as they were fighter planes and much more common.
That is why the HSU is so precious, it wasn't handed out like candy like the socialist labour awards etc. It was something like winning the lottery of living, and later on acquired flying skills and of course a lot of luck.
They turn up on occasion in coin auctions, history auctions, military auctions, etc.
The only companies that specialize in them tend to cover the the whole world. Here's one sale that's coming up later this month. It just doesn't have all of the information I need, and (as a true novice) I don't know if the information even exists.
https://coins-la-galerie-numismatique.com
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Fantastic book, not too expensive, 519 pages, by the same Token Publishing that publishes the annual 'Coin Yearbook'. Exclusively British, of course:
I don't collect these, but I like looking at them at auctions. Generally, the medals and lower class orders that are made in large runs, often by the state mints, should be easier to date. If there's not a reference work, then you can compare auction records to at least get an idea of early, middle, late types, etc. The higher class orders are usually commissioned works made by jewelers, so dating those involves comparing hallmarks and maker's marks with other known examples of the jeweler, or examining the style of work.
So, to answer your question, you often can't nail down the age exactly.
For what it's worth, my sense is that this field is as sharky as coins, where deceptive counterfeits, repaired pieces, Frankensteins, and replaced gems are common. Everything should be viewed with a skeptical eye. Even expert dealers make big mistakes. For example, a few years ago, there was a controversial argument between a sophisticated winning bidder and one of the coin auction houses in NYC when it turned out an expensive order wasn't really made of diamonds.
Same. And the Order of Lenin, since unfortunately my parents had to sell my grandfather's before immigrating.
8 Reales Madness Collection
I would imagine that USSR immigration and customs wouldn't have even let them leave with the Order of Lenin. I know the law applied to collectables etc that were over 50 years old or of significant cultural value. Later on when the USSR dissolved a lot of stuff left the country because the economy was so bad that people were selling a lot of stuff.
The last living HSU recipient from WWII died just last year, King Michael of Romania. The last award was given in 1990 to Lydia Litvyak, a female ace from WWII who perished in Krasny Luch now in Ukraine.
I understand at lot of Russian collectables ended up in Turkey for sale after 1991
King Michael of Romania was also the last living national leader from WWII. When Romania switched sides in 1944 he didn't make the mistake made by Victor Emanuel III in Italy. He immediately declared war on Germany. The delay in Italy's declaration of war put many of their soldiers in great danger. In Greece some Italian units resisted the Germans before the declaration of war by Italy and were executed when captured by the Germans.
King Michael was the last living adult leader of WWII, King Simeon of Bulgaria was 6-7 years old(became king in 1944 when his father died in Berlin- may have been killed by the Nazis) when the war ended. In the 1990s after the communist government in Bulgaria collapsed he was briefly prime minister. Now I believe he is about 80 years old.
Andy, I don’t know what you are looking for but La Galerie Numismatique are very good. They usually have a table at the ANA, which they did in Philly. I have sold to them in person and in their auctions, as well a bought from them over the years when we were in the orders and decorations business. EMedals.com in Canada also is huge with a large web site.
Emedals has a a lot of US medals on their site
The only pieces I have are a World War I participation medal by James Frazer and the participation medals for each service for World War II. My interest in the World War II pieces came from a World War II youth information card and half dollar that was issued by the mint.
I see many south american pieces listed at emedals.com. Check current and past sales. Very interesting. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall
Here is an interesting sidebar on medals. Back in the early 1970’s at Rarcoa we dealt in orders and decorations, including US medals. We had virtually everything in stock including MOH from all three branch’s (unissued). We were getting a lot of medals offered to us at the time. When one man came in with a big group of Navy medals including MOH and Navy Crosses, I asked him where he got them. His reply was he was like the QM onboard a ship that after the Vietnam Nam war was being decommissioned and the ORDERS from DC said to Deep Six all medals in inventory to save paper work of returning them. Ships carried full compliments of medals for field awards. Many of that ships medal went in his duffel bag rather than overboard. It happened a lot back then. After a friendly visit from FBI agents we stopped selling US medals, even though only the MOH were in question. We donated a complete set of US medals to the ANA museum. And dumped the rest. We did get many people coming in with letters from their service branch’s tellling them they had no replacement medals for lost ones, but they should go buy them from a dealer.
cool story, thanks