Options
Thoughts on a Central American Republic 8 Reales
oldlinecoins
Posts: 183 ✭✭✭
23.71 grams
38.25mm
So obviously, this is way underweight but quality looks really good though so I'm wondering what people think of this. Could it be a contemporary counterfeit or one other idea I had was is it possible this was struck over a lighter weight coin?
I know there are some very knowledgeable Latin American coin experts on this board so I figured I'd throw this coin out there
Gracias for looking
1
Comments
Very interesting piece, are you able to get a density/ specific gravity test done on it? looks like a CC to me
Highly enthusiastic about world coins, contemporary circulating counterfeits and unusual stuff
I vote it's a very desirous contemporary C/F based on the edge and date numerals. I like the way you magnified the surface as most authentication I do on suspicious coins is done at that level. Unfortunately, the image is not sharp when blown up.
Two weeks ago, I showed three contemporary counterfeits and one more modern fake that had all passed as genuine to an ATS. IMO, the more info shared between the TPGS's the better! Missing them is understandable if you just looked at the coin for a few seconds. Many C/F pieces produced in the 19th Century circulated as genuine back then and were detected/published in the early 20th Century only to be forgotten in more modern times. It often takes a specialist to weed out these fakes just by the incorrect design details for the various mints. These contemporary fakes are very desirable and go for a lot of money when they are slabbed as genuine. Sometimes you can tell when two or more collectors are fighting/overpaying for a Spanish Colonial Era coin that it is possibly one of the contemporary fakes published long ago by Riddell.
The Sol from Peru also looked perfectly genuine to the eye but it was obviously a counterfeit under the scope. This one was attracted to a magnet but it definitely was not a crude copy. I'll bet 100% of us including me would buy it in a lot that we just scanned with our eyes.
I'm not attacking any TPGS as they are our second line of defense against C/F's. Authenticators cannot know everything about everything and learn from experts in the field.
PS Google "Counterfeits by Riddell" for some interesting reading and more fakes.
Have you done a specific gravity on it yet? There are some things that do say it isn't real, but was done a century or more ago. I have to agree with the contemporary counterfeit theory, and yes, they are very desirable. Swamper Bob is probably the guy that needs to see it.
I've seen the specific gravity tests talked about a lot over the years but I've never actually done one. I think I will do one for this though
Thanks for the help so far, guys
It's more a matter of curiosity as to the composition, rather than to determine if it's a CC or not. That latter part is visually obvious
Edit: Also, I'm jealous
Highly enthusiastic about world coins, contemporary circulating counterfeits and unusual stuff
I want it too!
My small scale only can handle 100 grams so I had a hard time keeping the weight of everything under that limit. But I did a rough test just now and what I came up with was 8.8
That's around copper or nickel. Makes it even better to have!
That fits with an early form of copper-nickel as is often seen with CC's. Outstanding. Hopefully I don't have to fist-fight insider over it if it goes to auction.
Highly enthusiastic about world coins, contemporary circulating counterfeits and unusual stuff
lol I'm pretty much exclusively a seller so I will be selling it at some point. Since it's not like I can get it graded I would usually just sell something like this on eBay. I don't really have an idea of what it's worth so I might just list it for auction.
After I posted this thread here I posted the same thread on CCF. I'm going to wait for a little while to see some replies on there before I decide what to do with it. Should I update this thread if/when I decide to list it on eBay or is it that against the rules/frowned upon?
All the peeps on CCF have gone ghost, I'm Numismat on that forum and we've interacted plenty of times. I think this would be a great candidate for a true eBay auction, especially with the good photos you have. I'll certainly keep an eye out for it
Edit: I see realeswatcher responded. Glad to see that, was afraid he went ghost as well.
Highly enthusiastic about world coins, contemporary circulating counterfeits and unusual stuff
How would you go about proving that it's a contemporary counterfeit and not a 20th century production made for collectors? Sure, sometimes it's just obvious, but not always.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I own a counterfeit sol (1933) in an NGC holder. I submitted it before I was aware it was a counterfeit and it straight graded. Looks die struck and you can't tell that any of the details are off. Only way I noticed it was when a magnet stuck to the coin through the holder...still own it too.
Tough question. I've wondered about what will happen once they start counterfeiting contemporary counterfeits.
Highly enthusiastic about world coins, contemporary circulating counterfeits and unusual stuff
Looks like a die struck imitation on a lesser alloy planchet. Usually these would be Sheffield plated to give appearance of silver. The edge is neat - can you Mark on the picture of the coin where the overlaps in edge design occur? I'll bet this was edged with a single die.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Bob Gurney has remarked that a lab grade XRF scan can reveal contaminants that would only be present due to modern refining techniques. Conversely, before the late 1800s silver could not be refined more than 99% -- the remaining 1%, but typically more, would contain a signature mix that could be matched to particular silver mining regions. Bob Gurney often cites the appearance of trace amounts of gold in the silver from the mines of Mexico.
Good thread! Indeed it looks like a cast counterfeit, albeit a decent one!
My YouTube Channel
My biggest concern is that all of this flies out the window when melted genuine coins are being used for planchets. I see this becoming less science and more art, which is actually very scary.
Highly enthusiastic about world coins, contemporary circulating counterfeits and unusual stuff
Why do you think it's cast? The consensus otherwise seems to be die struck. Not saying you're wrong, just genuinely curious
I think you'd be better able to tell from the pictures where an overlap is. I'm not too familiar with the details of edge overlapping.
But looking at the coin in hand, there doesn't seem to be any obvious spots of what I would call an overlap.
The middle two edge photos appear to show an overlap, possibly the last photo as well. It's hard to tell exactly since the edge design is so crude.
Highly enthusiastic about world coins, contemporary circulating counterfeits and unusual stuff
There is one strange thing about the coin that nobody has commented on yet. On the obverse, the coin extends beyond the dentils but before the rim starts in the area past REPUBLICA. I thought I had seen somewhere before that on die struck coins the dentils had to end at the rim, otherwise it couldn't be die struck
The last picture before the edge pics is probably the best one to see this
Full dentils with space between the end and the rim are seen on some genuine coins, usually off center strikes. Partial dentils with some space between the rims are seen on design transfers. Home-made dies are a mix bag.
Highly enthusiastic about world coins, contemporary circulating counterfeits and unusual stuff
Okay, that makes sense because realeswatcher was able to pull photos of 2 other 1840 CAR CC 8 Reales he has seen and while one is very worn the other reverse die is almost definitely a match to mine.
Great info, thank you
IMHO, the coin is NOT CAST! Oops. imho, the coin Is not cast.
Cool. I appreciate your help in this thread
I was given permission to post these two other CAR 8R CC's also dated 1840. You can see many similarities but also some differences, especially on the obverse. The most telling similarities being a piece connecting between the lower right leg of the "R" [Reales] and the period after it. And the superscript "S" above the G in 20G being filled
Alright folks, the time has come to sell this coin. I am going to be putting it up for auction on my eBay site tomorrow evening. My ebay id is the same as my username here: oldlinecoins
$10 start, 7 days. It's unfortunate that this even needs to be said at all but I don't do hidden reserves or any type of thing like that when I sell. Once I decide to put up a coin for auction, I am okay with whatever it may sell for good or bad
Thank you to everybody for your help with this thread. I have learned a lot
A struck contemporary counterfeit will be from hand engraved dies, not copy dies, so there should be differences in the letter placement, etc. Has anyone bothered to compare this piece to other coins of the same date?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
OK, I've viewed enough images of real pieces to say that the OP coin is not a transfer dies copy. So the next question becomes, when was it made?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Feels as if you knew the answer...
I see a centering dot, so I believe it was made while the genuine version was in production or very close to it.
Edit: Perhaps a bit later actually. The latest I recall seeing a centering dot on a Latin American coin was 1880's.
Highly enthusiastic about world coins, contemporary circulating counterfeits and unusual stuff
The auction just ended a few minutes ago. I hope someone here was able to snag it lol
Old thread I just came back across while Googling something else. Have seen a few more of this type in the last few years (and again, there's variation in the dies). Most interestingly, though, it occurred to me that a specimen is shown in Riddell's 1845 "Monograph..."
