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Unusual 1925 buffalo nickel, what say you????
BUFFNIXX
Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭✭✭
Any comments on this 1925 buffalo nickel?????
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
4
Comments
fake
ain't no way that date is on a real coin
BHNC #203
Why would anyone do this? Playing with one learning to fake a better one?
Looks like a strike doubled GENUINE coin with damage in the hair and date + a die chip in the braid. Are you bothered by the "9.".
The upper loop in the 9 in the date curves sharply to the left while all the ones on any other 1925 nickels I have looked at have the 9 standing tall, more or less straight up.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Agree. Genuine, damaged date.
yes I am bothered by the 9 in the date.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
The unevenness in the "FIVE CENTS" and "E PLURIBUS UNUM" on the reverse look questionable too.
If the OP can get a major TPGS to call it counterfeit, I'll pay $45 (submission fee + a little profit) for it!
Usually these coins come with a slight doubling on the date. This specimen shows a flatness on the 9 which usually comes from wear. As far as the reverse goes, I see no immediate problem.
The obverse has been affected by strike doubling. The inside feather has been attenuated by abraiding, which would make this a mid to late die specimen. Reworking of the die does not automatically mean there was any problem, it looks like normal maintenance.
In my opinion, it is a genuine coin that should grade XF-45.
Pete
I will be sending if off for certification.
Will report back here when I get the results.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Another marker for this coin is that the “exerge” or the ground upon which the bison stands does not touch the rims to the right and left. The exergue should merge with the rims on both sides. In fact on the right side the bison’s rearmost leg seems to be floating in the air! Not good! But interesting. Compare photo below to the one above.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
I hope it turns out to be a fake and you sell it to me! Look, the Henning nickels circulated. The Micro "O" Morgans circulated.
The only thing I see odd on your coin is the "9" (damaged, worn) and the "O" in "of."
Compare these two photos of the Denomination and Date area from a genuine PCGS slabbed coin:
I still have to say it's genuine.
Pete
Thank, thank you for this photo. I have been trying since 2009 to get someone interested in these counterfeit buffalo nickels. They were counterfeited by two brothers, George and Louis Ehlers and a third party Leo Gallie in an abandoned farmhouse in Monroe of Chester County, New York. If interested read the attached news articles. I contacted both the treasury department and the secret service under freedom of information act and got the run around when they told me any information regarding a counterfeit ring mentioned in all the newpaper articles would have been turned over to the U.S. Mint. I wrote them and was told I would have to go to the US Mint archives, but was not told where or how to go there. I went to the Baltimore show in 2009 and tried to speak with Mr. Bowers but could not arrange to speak with him. I spoke to many dealers and no one had heard of it. I even spoke with several gentlemen at the Whitman Books table and none had ever heard of the incident. I contacted Mr. Lange through the NGC forum and he stated there was nothing to it. I have quite a few pieces of information associated with the counterfeit ring, yet cannot find where any of the men were sentenced. Quite confusing. Below is a copy of the contact with Mr. Lange. I finally gave up as I could not travel to NY to research this. Amazing when nickels in the 300,000 range where spread over several states, the letter was as follows:
Thank you for your time, Mr. Bowers.
I am trying to write an article regarding the 1935 Buffalo Nickel
Counterfeiting bust that occurred in March 1935 in Goshen, NY.
During this bust, which occurred accidentally while searching for
a still in the woods north of Goshen, three presses where found in
operation, according to the article, 4600 counterfeit nickels and
many thousands of blanks where on site. Three men were arrested,
two brothers-Leo and George Ehlers and a third man, Leo Gailie. It
states that they had been in operation for longer than one year and
passing the coins across 5 states via a vending machine operation
wherein they sold the buffalo nickels(1925, 1927 and 1929) for 2 1/2
cents to the vending machine operators. The Oswego Palladium Times
said that a Secret Service Agent making the arrest,
Allen C. Straight said that the coins were "nearly perfect imitation
of the buffalo coin". I could go on, but my effort in disturbing you
is for a different reason. It took me nearly three weeks of digging
to find out any of this information. Why is that? There is hardly
any information available regarding this counterfeiting scheme. I
have written the Secret Service, with no answer, the Treasury
department, again with no answer. I have recently attended the
Baltimore Coin Show, where on Thurs and Fri I attempted to speak
with you but were unable to be available when you were. I spoke with
several gentlemen with Whitman Books who knew nothing about this
issue and while were intrigued by the story, unfortunately could not
shed any light on it. When I contacted D W Lange via NGC's forum to
which I belong, he stated that newpaper were notoriously unreliable,
the Secret Service even worse and that he did not feel this was a
true account of a minor infraction. Again, according to the news
account there were $200,000 to $250,000 worth of nickels passed over
a five state area. Mr. Lange says they were pitiful examples of
counterfeiting and easily distinguishable from a real coin. Yet,
when later I asked if he had ever held one in his hand and viewed it,
he did not answer. I would just like to find out why nothing is
available regarding this issue. No record of court proceedings,
sentencing nor accounting of the disposition of the coins or presses.
Thank you again for your time, I hope I have not wasted it.
Jim Bowling
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Sorry I left the attachments off.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Quite interesting to see that 1925 was one of the years involved in the counterfeiting. One would think that examples would have been found of their work and thus-sly inspected to find the faults.
Very strange, indeed. I now wonder what metal they were made of.
Thanks for the neat article Jesbroken. It puts me in doubt about the coin.
Pete
BUFFNIX: You make a good point with the exurge. I can see your concerns. This is starting to get interesting.
Pete
With the new information provided, due to irregularities in the design, I've changed my opinion - the OP's coin is POSSIBLY a contemporary counterfeit!
And just a note about the "workings" of a typical TPGS...
I personally (along with other authenticators I have worked with) have changed my mind back-and-forth (not genuine, genuine, not genuine, genuine) dozens of times in the past due to direct examination of comparison pieces, discussion with other authenticators, additional research, etc. However, once a coin leaves the TPGS, that is the consensus opinion of the company. On many occasions, over the decades at several different TPGS, my opinion was different from that of the company and my fellow authenticators.
PS Therefore, I reserve the right to change my mind again.
I don't care how many times you change your mind! Just let us know when you do.
Pete
Don't worry about that! I enjoy arguing with my peers. Sometimes they change my opinion; sometimes I change theirs: and sometimes we 'll just strongly disagree and it can get very heated. :
No truer statement about this could be made.
Pete
I wonder who made the 1916-S counterfeit nickels? This is a somewhat common date/Mint for counterfeits. All are missing the designer's initial and the overall appearance of the bison is quite different from the real deal (the second reverse shown is the genuine coin.)
I think the 1925 shown is counterfeit.
Now this is an interesting subject....According to the news articles, there are literally thousands of counterfeit Buffs out there... Indeed, many of us collectors may own one....Cheers, RickO
I had initially featured the following 1927 buffalo in another thread -- notice on the reverse how the “exergue”, the ground upon which the bison stands, does not touch the rims as it does on genuine coins. I got this coin from eBay a few months ago too.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Coin above is a 1927 no “F” 3 and one half legged buffalo! Too bad it is not real! Also the leftmost rear like is kind of sliced in half towards the bottom. On the right a large unnatural separation from the leg and the rim.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Everything about the op’s Nickel looks fake to me. Even the lettering looks weird. Not sure if it’s just me but I even find the bag marks, or, hits suspicious . Lots of V looking marks on the buffalo.
Cool thread
Ever heard of a polished die?
And here is a different counterfeit 1935 nickel. This and the companion 1936, made by the same counterfeiter, were at first thought to be genuine "two legged" coins that were listed in the Spadone guide in the early sixties. I have seen several of each date but the one pictured is by far the highest grade I've seen-much better than the typical good-VG example. The obverse is missing much of the detail of a genuine coin-it could be called a two feather, broken nose, no "F", and no neck variety.
If it's counterfeit I'll pay you $100 - and I'm happy to have a bidding war with @insider2 on this piece if it turns out to be a counterfeit. The '9' in the date and the 'O' in OF make me think this 'could' be a counterfeit; the strike doubling is also telling.
That being said, the OPs piece does not resemble the characteristics described of the 'Goshen Mint' (or Monroe Mint - as @jesbroken mentioned). That said, the 1927 transfer die counterfeit, shown above, is most likely related to the Goshen/Monroe mint, but there is very little way to prove this based on the research I've uncovered.
Thanks for sharing.
This one is a very obvious counterfeit. The OP's is not.
Thanks for the additional post. This is another crude fake.
I've gone back and forth on the OP's coin. ITo a TPGS authenticator, if "10" is a perfect and undetectable fake and "1" is junk. IMO, the OP's coin is an 8-9 while the others here are 2-3's. It should be interesting to see if any genuine high grade 27's exist with this reverse abnormality. I'll guarantee I could fool a bunch of professionals with the OP's nickel and I have not reached the 100% bad opinion yet. The overwhelming evidence so far has me in the 97% bad range. Right now, if this came into a TPGS I worked for we would hold it for study. If the owner said no thanks, it would go out as No Decision. The worse thing an authenticator can do is call a genuine coin Fake.
Interesting stuff. Reminded me of a load of counterfeit nickels dumped in cooper river I'd read about so I looked it up again. Google "Henning Nickels" if you want a good read.
I think Tom's (BUFFNIXX) first coin is a definite fake. EPU looks totally wrong, as does it's positioning relative to the bison.
Off by a factor of 10 there. The ratio between 1925 and today is 14:1. So that nickel would be about $0.70 today.
This fake 1916-s is now on eBay. Notice how the gound/exergue on this one does not quite touch the rims.
same flaw in reverse die seen on the 1925 nickel above though not as markedly on this 1916s but it is there.
(Koynequest first mentioned this one above, but this piece is one of the nicest I have ever seen.)
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Cool thread!
Does anyone have a complete or near complete list of counterfeit buffalo nickels or know where one can be obtained?
I also have a 1928s which I will post here later.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Link? They don't look like the same die. Where is the flaw?
I have assembled a limited list of die struck varieties - all of which appear to be transfer dies:
1916-S - obverse die crack at 9 o'clock
1927 - obverse dots in field below feathers
1930 - 40-degree counterclockwise die rotation
1935 - 2 legs
1936 - 2 feathers, 2 legs
(If the OPs 1925 is counterfeit I will add that to my list)
I would love to see your 1928-S!
I will make photos of the 28s and post them herein.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
+1
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
The Chinees are making junky granular crap. The OP's coin is really nice.
Does anybody have a 1925 with the exact same mis-shapen date, which would prove that the coin is a counterfeit and not just random post-mint damage?
Ditto the mis-shapen O in OF. A counterfeiter would probably have used a reverse die with different dated obverses, a la Henning.
Here's a date comparison from the OP coin and a genuine 1925 Buff:
Look at the ribbon near the date. It's different.
Counterfiet.
Pete
@jesbroken did you take a doubletake at the secret service agent’s name “Allen C. Straight”!
Given the irregularities, how do we think this was made:
1) Transfer die with some design alterations?
2) Hand-made die?
3) Other?
I would think transfer die.
This thread is really what it's all about. Great thanks to the OP for bringing this up in a post. We (especially me) learned a whole lot.
Thanks also for the contributory posts.
Pete
The hypothetical damage to the date could very easily have damaged the ribbon as well. Still not enough evidence to condemn the coin. Until a duplicate is found it should be considered as probably genuine, damaged.