The 1933-S Czech Walking Liberty Half - Any Update?

BuffaloIronTail

Has anything new come up about this coin since the original post? Has anyone tried to authenticate it? Is it really worth it for me to bring this up again?

From the original post, I know how everyone stands on this. I'd still like to know if there has been any new updates or authentication work done.

Pete

Paradisefound

I missed the initial thread. What is the title? I would like to read more details .....

Walkerfan

I haven't heard a thing. It's a big risk imho. Hope the buyer is all right.

mkman123

I too wonder what happened. Read the thread and just wonder if its sitting in a European collectors raw collection or ?

RogerB

Was and remains a counterfeit.

jedm

@Paradisefound said:
I missed the initial thread. What is the title? I would like to read more details .....

raw 1933-s half just sold for $10k in Czech auction

Search it just as I copied... enjoy the speculation!
The thumb being there is what "strikes" me as odd.

Namvet69

Had this coin previously been identified as a fake but allowed to be listed for sale? Inquiring minds want to know. Peace Roy

BuffaloIronTail

@Paradisefound said:
I missed the initial thread. What is the title? I would like to read more details .....

The thing that bothers a lot of peeps is the amazing strike with the flat right arm. It makes no numismatic sense.

It's a good read, PF.

Pete

CaptHenway

@RogerB said:
Was and remains a counterfeit.

I am unaware that this was ever established either way.

Smudge

The right arm looks like it is in a cast.

wooglout

@Paradisefound said:
I missed the initial thread. What is the title? I would like to read more details .....

Here it is: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/995161/raw-1933-s-half-just-sold-for-10k-in-czech-auction/p1

Edit: I will also add the direct auction link: https://katzauction.com/lots/view/1-PGPWA/united-states-12-dollar-1933-s

AND the largest image I could find of the coin:

koynekwest

@BuffaloIronTail said:

@Paradisefound said:
I missed the initial thread. What is the title? I would like to read more details .....

The thing that bothers a lot of peeps is the amazing strike with the flat right arm. It makes no numismatic sense.

It's a good read, PF.

Pete

Looks more to me that she's wearing a compression sleeve.

I've never seen a Walker struck that well, obverse and reverse, not even a proof. If the coin is real it should be worth a small fortune.

AUandAG

I do agree that it's a fake.

bob

Soldi

Looks so real and struck so full and meaty including that right arm in the plaster cast . PLASTER CAST

Raybo

As fake as a fake can be.

thefinn

Maybe her right arm was in a cast, and we never new it because every other piece issued is too weakly struck.

ms70

Wait a minute.....

If ANOTHER example is found, would that coin be considered a Czech mate?

CaptHenway

@ms70 said:
Wait a minute.....

If ANOTHER example is found, would that coin be considered a Czech mate?

And if an assortment of them were to be found it would be a Czech mix!

dcarr

I wonder if the image was "photo-shopped" on the outstretched arm to hide bag marks on it ?

Counterfeits don't normally have sharper and fuller details than the original.
For the amount of work that it would take to do this, if it is actually counterfeit (which I doubt), then I would expect to there to be a few more of these out there.

Gazes

I think the fact that it has not shown up yet in a slab speaks volumes

jmlanzaf

@Gazes said:
I think the fact that it has not shown up yet in a slab speaks volumes

What percentage of Czech coin sales get submitted to US TPGS?

OGDan

@jmlanzaf said:

@Gazes said:
I think the fact that it has not shown up yet in a slab speaks volumes

What percentage of Czech coin sales get submitted to US TPGS?

I don’t know, but I did buy a foreign coin from this same firm and it came back in an NGC holder unexpectedly. When I asked, they said it was such a beautiful coin that they decided to submit it for me prior to shipping.

If I had purchased this coin I would have asked them to submit for authenticity prior to shipping, and I’m guessing they would have agreed. They seem to be good people.

jmlanzaf

@OriginalDan said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Gazes said:
I think the fact that it has not shown up yet in a slab speaks volumes

What percentage of Czech coin sales get submitted to US TPGS?

I don’t know, but I did buy a foreign coin from this same firm and it came back in an NGC holder unexpectedly. When I asked, they said it was such a beautiful coin that they decided to submit it for me prior to shipping.

If I had purchased this coin I would have asked them to submit for authenticity prior to shipping, and I’m guessing they would have agreed. They seem to be good people.

I don't know either. BUT, I would also suggest that slabbing is not nearly as universal as a bunch of people who hang out on a TPGS message board think. LOL. While a slabbed coin would be evidence, lack of a slabbed coin is evidence of nothing other than lack of slabbing.

7Jaguars

I have gotten many incredible coins from European auctions that slabbed accordingly, so really don't jump to that conclusion - including some fairly scarce US gold.

jmlanzaf

@7Jaguars said:
I have gotten many incredible coins from European auctions that slabbed accordingly, so really don't jump to that conclusion - including some fairly scarce US gold.

jump to which conclusion?

Gazes

@jmlanzaf said:

@Gazes said:
I think the fact that it has not shown up yet in a slab speaks volumes

What percentage of Czech coin sales get submitted to US TPGS?

given the price and that it is a US coin, I would expect it to get in a slab IF possible

OGDan

As we have discussed over on the darkside forum, the Europeans are not so fond of slabs.

jmlanzaf

@Gazes said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Gazes said:
I think the fact that it has not shown up yet in a slab speaks volumes

What percentage of Czech coin sales get submitted to US TPGS?

given the price and that it is a US coin, I would expect it to get in a slab IF possible

But your expectation is evidence of nothing but your bias in favor of slabs. Not everyone feels the same way. Not everyone would prefer PCGS and NGC. Absence of evidence isn't evidence.

Gazes

@jmlanzaf said:

@Gazes said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Gazes said:
I think the fact that it has not shown up yet in a slab speaks volumes

What percentage of Czech coin sales get submitted to US TPGS?

given the price and that it is a US coin, I would expect it to get in a slab IF possible

But your expectation is evidence of nothing but your bias in favor of slabs. Not everyone feels the same way. Not everyone would prefer PCGS and NGC. Absence of evidence isn't evidence.

you are right---i have a bias for slabs for high priced coins that have some red flags.

koynekwest

@Soldi said:
Looks so real and struck so full and meaty including that right arm in the plaster cast . PLASTER CAST

Gawd-c'mon man-I'm sure as hell not gonna get into a silly argument over whether it's a cast or a compression sleeve. To you it looks like a cast; to me it looks like a sleeve. I don't think either of us is right or wrong.

7Jaguars

That excellent unslabbed original coins can be found with frequency from European sources.

Topdollarpaid

Looks real to me

koynekwest

I'd LOVE to see it declared genuine. It would be one of the most amazing coins I've ever seen if that is the case. But, alas, I fear it's not genuine. It actually would be worth something for that amazing detail to me even if it is fake (not anything even close 10 grand, tho.)

Aotearoa

@jmlanzaf said:
Absence of evidence isn't evidence.

So... lack of footprints in the freshly fallen snow is not evidence that no one walked that way since the snow fell?

jmlanzaf

@Aotearoa said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Absence of evidence isn't evidence.

So... lack of footprints in the freshly fallen snow is not evidence that no one walked that way since the snow fell?

This is silly and has no connection to the issue here.

Lack of footprints in snow IS evidence that no one walked there. But that is not a lack of evidence, that IS evidence.
Lack of a submission would be evidence that no one submitted. But lack of a slabbed coin is NOT evidence that the coin failed to slab. In fact, lack of a slabbed coin is NOT evidence that the coin wasn't submitted. You don't have "lack of footprints in the freshly fallen snow". You have no snow and no footprints and no one looking.

davewesen

lighting angles and pictures can make a coin show more details than usually seen, similar to great southern on ebay - here is a pic with flat arm and well defined stars

jesbroken

The coin is struck so well it appears fake, but I believe it to be real. Just another opinion.
Jim

Gazes

@jmlanzaf said:

@Aotearoa said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Absence of evidence isn't evidence.

So... lack of footprints in the freshly fallen snow is not evidence that no one walked that way since the snow fell?

This is silly and has no connection to the issue here.

Lack of footprints in snow IS evidence that no one walked there. But that is not a lack of evidence, that IS evidence.
Lack of a submission would be evidence that no one submitted. But lack of a slabbed coin is NOT evidence that the coin failed to slab. In fact, lack of a slabbed coin is NOT evidence that the coin wasn't submitted. You don't have "lack of footprints in the freshly fallen snow". You have no snow and no footprints and no one looking.

do you think this coin would be worth significantly more money if it were in a PCGS or NGC slab?

CaptHenway

I still maintain that neither its authenticity nor its falseness have been proven, but since so many people on here have seen fit to condemn it without proof then yes, the coin would be worth more money in a PCGS or NGC or ANACS slab than it would be raw.

jmlanzaf

@Gazes said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Aotearoa said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Absence of evidence isn't evidence.

So... lack of footprints in the freshly fallen snow is not evidence that no one walked that way since the snow fell?

This is silly and has no connection to the issue here.

Lack of footprints in snow IS evidence that no one walked there. But that is not a lack of evidence, that IS evidence.
Lack of a submission would be evidence that no one submitted. But lack of a slabbed coin is NOT evidence that the coin failed to slab. In fact, lack of a slabbed coin is NOT evidence that the coin wasn't submitted. You don't have "lack of footprints in the freshly fallen snow". You have no snow and no footprints and no one looking.

do you think this coin would be worth significantly more money if it were in a PCGS or NGC slab?

Worth more? Indirectly. It would be accepted by more people who would then be more than willing to bid it up. But that is the infantilization created by TPGS.

Let me ask you a different question. If you saw it in person and thought it a unique specimen strike in SP65 or SP66 and then later saw it in a PCGS slab graded SP65, would you pay more for a coin that to you has not changed a bit from what you determined it to be on personal viewing? The answer is probably "yes" but it probably should be "no"

Gazes

@jmlanzaf said:

@Gazes said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Aotearoa said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Absence of evidence isn't evidence.

So... lack of footprints in the freshly fallen snow is not evidence that no one walked that way since the snow fell?

This is silly and has no connection to the issue here.

Lack of footprints in snow IS evidence that no one walked there. But that is not a lack of evidence, that IS evidence.
Lack of a submission would be evidence that no one submitted. But lack of a slabbed coin is NOT evidence that the coin failed to slab. In fact, lack of a slabbed coin is NOT evidence that the coin wasn't submitted. You don't have "lack of footprints in the freshly fallen snow". You have no snow and no footprints and no one looking.

do you think this coin would be worth significantly more money if it were in a PCGS or NGC slab?

Worth more? Indirectly. It would be accepted by more people who would then be more than willing to bid it up. But that is the infantilization created by TPGS.

Let me ask you a different question. If you saw it in person and thought it a unique specimen strike in SP65 or SP66 and then later saw it in a PCGS slab graded SP65, would you pay more for a coin that to you has not changed a bit from what you determined it to be on personal viewing? The answer is probably "yes" but it probably should be "no"

if I am paying 5 figures for a coin, having pcgs authenticate the coin would absolutely increase what i would pay for the peace of mind. Further, when it came time to sell, it would be easier to sell if in a tpg slab. People usually act rationale when it comes to money, so if a coin would be worth more in a TPG slab, it usually ends up in one.

btw, I have no opinion on this coin but the fact that the coin is raw is a factor in my own decision making.

Gazes

was the recent $5 1854-S worth more when it was put in a slab? of course it's the same coin but now you have a major company and experts put their name behind its authenticity and grade.

jmlanzaf

@Gazes said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Gazes said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Aotearoa said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Absence of evidence isn't evidence.

So... lack of footprints in the freshly fallen snow is not evidence that no one walked that way since the snow

if I am paying 5 figures for a coin, having pcgs authenticate the coin would absolutely increase what i would pay for the peace of mind. Further, when it came time to sell, it would be easier to sell if in a tpg slab. People usually act rationale when it comes to money, so if a coin would be worth more in a TPG slab, it usually ends up in one.

btw, I have no opinion on this coin but the fact that the coin is raw is a factor in my own decision making.

As it would be for me. I would NOT bid on that coin sight unseen. But that's normally what I use TPGS for: sight unseen purchases. I won't readily buy anything over $100 raw. I will bid up to $1000 on a coin in a slab without spending more than 20 seconds looking at the pictures even.

If that coin had come through Heritage or Stacks, I would be suspect by the lack of a slab as they routinely submit just about everything over a certain $ value. I would not be as suspicious of even a lower tier U.S. auction house who may not routinely submit, much less a Czech auction house.

Of course, I still wouldn't bid sight unseen.

privaterarecoincollector

I think the coin can only be an original and not a fake, it has more details than all others. Look at the bust of standing liberty. I guess a professional US dealer bought it and we will see it slabbed soon, maybe as SP 55 or SP 65. Or proof.

jmlanzaf

@Gazes said:
was the recent $5 1854-S worth more when it was put in a slab? of course it's the same coin but now you have a major company and experts put their name behind its authenticity and grade.

"worth more" is the wrong term. Sell for more, maybe. But that is because of bidders who don't trust their own eyes or bidders who don't see the coin in hand.

The $5 1854-S was not wroth more in the slab BUT people would bid more because they trusted its authenticity whereas they did not before.

We are in agreement on this.

BUT this is not globally true. It's probably not even true of ancient coins sold in the U.S. I don't know how prevalent it is in Eastern Europe or even who the trusted 3rd party opinions might be.

Gazes

I agree that in Europe collectors do not seem to understand the US "requirement" of slabbing coins.

Aotearoa

@jmlanzaf said:

@Aotearoa said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Absence of evidence isn't evidence.

So... lack of footprints in the freshly fallen snow is not evidence that no one walked that way since the snow fell?

This is silly and has no connection to the issue here.

Lack of footprints in snow IS evidence that no one walked there. But that is not a lack of evidence, that IS evidence.
Lack of a submission would be evidence that no one submitted. But lack of a slabbed coin is NOT evidence that the coin failed to slab. In fact, lack of a slabbed coin is NOT evidence that the coin wasn't submitted. You don't have "lack of footprints in the freshly fallen snow". You have no snow and no footprints and no one looking.

Sheesh. Find a sense of humour somewhere!

jmlanzaf

@Aotearoa said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Aotearoa said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Absence of evidence isn't evidence.

So... lack of footprints in the freshly fallen snow is not evidence that no one walked that way since the snow fell?

This is silly and has no connection to the issue here.

Lack of footprints in snow IS evidence that no one walked there. But that is not a lack of evidence, that IS evidence.
Lack of a submission would be evidence that no one submitted. But lack of a slabbed coin is NOT evidence that the coin failed to slab. In fact, lack of a slabbed coin is NOT evidence that the coin wasn't submitted. You don't have "lack of footprints in the freshly fallen snow". You have no snow and no footprints and no one looking.

Sheesh. Find a sense of humour somewhere!

Wasn't clear that you were kidding. My apologies.

koynekwest

After seeing the overlays and other details in the other thread concerning the coin I'm not so sure about my assessment above. If it IS real, I'd say it's a REALLY exceptional coin-something very special.

batumi

@BuffaloIronTail said:

@Paradisefound said:
I missed the initial thread. What is the title? I would like to read more details .....

The thing that bothers a lot of peeps is the amazing strike with the flat right arm. It makes no numismatic sense.

It's a good read, PF.

Pete

The strike iooks like a silver American Eagle-but that arm. That flat arm would be my biggest concern. I lean toward it being a fake.

batumi

@jmlanzaf said:

@Gazes said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Gazes said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Aotearoa said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Absence of evidence isn't evidence.

So... lack of footprints in the freshly fallen snow is not evidence that no one walked that way since the snow

if I am paying 5 figures for a coin, having pcgs authenticate the coin would absolutely increase what i would pay for the peace of mind. Further, when it came time to sell, it would be easier to sell if in a tpg slab. People usually act rationale when it comes to money, so if a coin would be worth more in a TPG slab, it usually ends up in one.

btw, I have no opinion on this coin but the fact that the coin is raw is a factor in my own decision making.

As it would be for me. I would NOT bid on that coin sight unseen. But that's normally what I use TPGS for: sight unseen purchases. I won't readily buy anything over $100 raw. I will bid up to $1000 on a coin in a slab without spending more than 20 seconds looking at the pictures even.

If that coin had come through Heritage or Stacks, I would be suspect by the lack of a slab as they routinely submit just about everything over a certain $ value. I would not be as suspicious of even a lower tier U.S. auction house who may not routinely submit, much less a Czech auction house.

Of course, I still wouldn't bid sight unseen.

The only way I would bid on any high dollar coin sight unseen would be to have a trusted dealer that did see it give me their opinion. And yes, I would gladly pay for their expertise if I was trulyinterested in the coin. JMO