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How can we grow the numismatics TPG market?

ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited September 20, 2018 7:28PM in U.S. Coin Forum

This was by @RogerB in another thread and says "numismatics is a very small, self limited market". Do you agree or disagree? What could be done to grow the market for PCGS and other TPGs?

The fundamental CLCT business model depends on regular supply and quantity growth of items to "authenticate and grade." But, numismatics is a very small, self limited market; hence, growth is limited by forces CLCT (and NGC, ANACS) cannot control or significantly influence. Without significant change to the business, revenue will decline and then assume a level profile. That is, the company can be profitable but cannot increase in size.

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Comments

  • RegulatedRegulated Posts: 2,983 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I know your question was about growing the market for the TPGs, but I think we'd all be better off if we spent more time thinking about the health of the hobby, and less time trying to save a business model that has run its course.

    David McCarthy - Kagin's - IG: X_COINNERD_X

    What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2018 8:59PM

    @Regulated said:
    I know your question was about growing the market for the TPGs, but I think we'd all be better off if we spent more time thinking about the health of the hobby, and less time trying to save a business model that has run its course.

    My experience getting into coins was simple and, I'm guessing, fairly common. When I was a kid, my parents and grandparents would give me coins. That, along with a handful of trips to the B&M, was all it took to get me hooked.

  • ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 8,588 ✭✭✭✭✭

    IMHO The pool is not growing other than steady supply of modern ..... so what else to grade and regrade in order to cultivate steady bottom line? :/

  • RegulatedRegulated Posts: 2,983 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe grading alone isn't the future for the TPGs.

    David McCarthy - Kagin's - IG: X_COINNERD_X

    What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Slabs are bulky, which causes a lot of people to collect far fewer coins.

    They’re also ridiculously expensive for cheap coins.

    Collections look better and are more fun to handle in albums than in slabs.

    If the TPGs want us to collect more slabs, they need to address these issues. I do think they’re very solvable problems.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 8,588 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2018 10:35PM

    I am with you ..... locally there is no YN interest where I am and perhaps there is where the opportunity is.
    Please let me know if I can help in anyway .... across the PO B)

    @Regulated said:
    I know your question was about growing the market for the TPGs, but I think we'd all be better off if we spent more time thinking about the health of the hobby, and less time trying to save a business model that has run its course.

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BryceM said:
    I’m here to have fun (hobby). Growing anyone’s business isn’t really my concern.

    The TPGs certainly affect us and our hobby. Whatever they do next can help us or hurt us.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:
    Slabs are bulky, which causes a lot of people to collect far fewer coins.
    [...]
    Collections look better and are more fun to handle in albums than in slabs.

    I like slabs but mostly for Box of 20 type collections where each coin stands out.

    For date/mm sets, I like the Capital Plastics type holders. Not sure if TPGs can come up with a holder similar to these.

    They’re also ridiculously expensive for cheap coins.

    Sometimes, you just want a coin to be protected and photographed. Would offering a cheaper holder without a guarantee satisfy this?

    If the TPGs want us to collect more slabs, they need to address these issues. I do think they’re very solvable problems.

    Hopefully their product teams are looking at this thread.

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Teach Kids to Collect Raw, Well.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2018 11:02PM

    There are some good ideas in the "Suggestions" thread, though it got somewhat bombed with Tony Orlando jokes.
    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1005727/complaints-suggestions-and-questions-for-joe-orlando#latest

    For the main purposes of slabs - independent grading and authentication - the job is pretty much finished.
    Most of the high value US coins are in PCGS slabs.
    It is a great format for buying and selling when the grade and authentication matter.

    I agree with @RogerB that revenue growth should not be expected.
    It is very much limited by the size of the collector base, which has been declining for awhile.
    So it is essentially a declining industry.
    To stay alive with lower revenues, they have to cut costs, which is what they are doing.

    There are several potential new variations on services that have been mentioned, and several seem worth doing.
    But they should not be expected to provide revenue growth.

  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,722 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:

    @BryceM said:
    I’m here to have fun (hobby). Growing anyone’s business isn’t really my concern.

    The TPGs certainly affect us and our hobby. Whatever they do next can help us or hurt us.

    I don’t disagree in the slightest. I’m glad they exist. Without their services I’d never be where I am in the hobby. Still, it’s not my job to grow their market. Down markets have plenty of advantages that many can’t appreciate. Dealers view this quite differently than collectors for obvious reasons.

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When I think about collectibles other than coins my only thought is: If I owned that how could I sell it quickly for cash.

    Increasingly, my thoughts regarding coins and other numismatic material are also moving in that direction. The need for third party grading and authentication and then "stickers" to be able to realize a decent price for an item is, in my mind, a negative.

    Widespread counterfeiting has made third party authentication a necessity. The lust for big economic returns has made third party grading and stickering popular among those who view coins more as investments than items of historical interest a necessity as well.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • au58au58 Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭

    I have an idea.
    What if a TPG started stickering CAC stickered coins?

  • jafo50jafo50 Posts: 330 ✭✭✭

    @au58 said:
    I have an idea.
    What if a TPG started stickering CAC stickered coins?

    Then we would have what is known in baby talk as "cac cac"

    Successful BST transactions with lordmarcovan, Moldnut, erwindoc

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is one of the most silly questions/comments posed here in recent times.

    I am a consumer of third-party grading and authentication.

    I owe the TPGs nothing besides the occasional fee, paid directly or indirectly.

    I choose the service most likely to meet my need(s). I prefer PCGS by a long shot.

    However, you think I should do unpaid work - in addition to my fee and the ancillary costs - to help them?

    Tsk, tsk.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2018 7:53AM

    @BillDugan1959 said:
    This is one of the most silly questions/comments posed here in recent times.

    I am a consumer of third-party grading and authentication.

    I owe the TPGs nothing besides the occasional fee, paid directly or indirectly.

    I choose the service most likely to meet my need(s). I prefer PCGS by a long shot.

    However, you think I should do unpaid work - in addition to my fee and the ancillary costs - to help them?

    Tsk, tsk.

    There may be a misunderstanding here.

    The idea is not to get you to do unpaid work or about what you owe a TPG but what other services they could provide to earn more of your business.

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Title of your thread is "How can we grow the numismatics TPG market?

    You further wrote "What could be done to grow the market for PCGS and the other TPGs?".

    When Donn Pearlman does publicity and marketing, he gets paid. You want us to do product marketing and development tasks for free, it seems.

    I'll pass.

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,642 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jafo50 said:

    @au58 said:
    I have an idea.
    What if a TPG started stickering CAC stickered coins?

    Then we would have what is known in baby talk as "cac cac"

    Or eventually this:

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2018 8:13AM

    @BillDugan1959 said:
    Title of your thread is "How can we grow the numismatics TPG market?

    You further wrote "What could be done to grow the market for PCGS and the other TPGs?".

    When Donn Pearlman does publicity and marketing, he gets paid. You want us to do product marketing and development tasks for free, it seems.

    I'll pass.

    The term "market" is different from "marketing". The market refers to the population of potential customers of a company or services, not people doing work for that company, product marketing, development, or otherwise.

    Here's a definition that came up in Google:

    http://www.netmba.com/marketing/market/definition/

    Market Definition

    In marketing, the term market refers to the group of consumers or organizations that is interested in the product, has the resources to purchase the product, and is permitted by law and other regulations to acquire the product.

  • thefinnthefinn Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Baley said:
    Teach Kids to Collect Raw, Well.

    I had a young man working at a LCS ask me how to learn to grade. I took him over to their 4/$1 foreign box and told him to learn to grade there. Grading is grading. Look at luster, wear, strike, and compare different pieces against one another. There was nothing posted on a 2x2 or flip, so he had to do the work. Then ask someone else what they thought. You have to look at a lot of coins, of all types. Grading ability cannot be over emphasized.

    thefinn
  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Regulated said:

    ......

    Give them a Fugio Cent in VF - it doesn't have to be graded. Tell them about how the government in 1787 didn't have enough money to start a mint, ......

    My guess is that they'll just say, "Haw! The GOVERNMENT can't run out of money!" :'(

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said: "What could be done to grow the market for PCGS and other TPGs?"

    Slab counterfeits for educational purposes.

  • ElmhurstElmhurst Posts: 768 ✭✭✭

    Mr. Hall and his partner are now free to set up another TPG.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I suspect the eventual implementation of a 100 point grading system might spur a wave of regrades....That would be a major change....It has been discussed, however, I doubt it will become reality. Cheers, RickO

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Elmhurst said:
    Mr. Hall and his partner are now free to set up another TPG.

    Hey, if this were a movie, he would do exactly that and the coin division of CU would go under and Mr. Orlando would get canned. Anyway, I can tell you don't have any idea of the cost, trouble, etc. it would take not to mention a profitable market share.

  • ElmhurstElmhurst Posts: 768 ✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @Elmhurst said:
    Mr. Hall and his partner are now free to set up another TPG.

    Hey, if this were a movie, he would do exactly that and the coin division of CU would go under and Mr. Orlando would get canned. Anyway, I can tell you don't have any idea of the cost, trouble, etc. it would take not to mention a profitable market share.

    I think they could do it if set up as a boutique outfit ($10,000+ items only), or just start adding their own stickers to PCGS holders.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yikes! just what we need - another "sticker" company. Brings back memories.

    In 1988 I had self-destruct stickers made with an image of a tiny microscope and "IAN" (Institute for Applied Numismatics) around the border. For a dollar a coin + return postage I would examine your already graded coin and put my sticker on any slab (from any TPGS) with a circulated coin that was 100% original or any MS graded coin that was actually Uncirculated (no trace of wear). LOL. Never happened as I was hired as a grader.

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