Confederate Cent copper block die trial auction results
Zoins
Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
Census
This is a thread for Confederate Cent copper block die trials by August Conrad Frank. Here's a running list of serial numbers encountered and pictured in this thread.
- 4
- 5
- 9
- 17
- 33
- 48
- 51
- 52
- 71
Original Post
This is the first auction result I've seen for a Confederate Cent copper block die trial by August Conrad Frank. All the others I've seen to date have been offered at fixed prices. It's number 33 and ended up selling for US $359.00 with 33 bids by 16 bidders.
Any way to tell if these were done with the original Robert Lovett, Jr. dies or the transfer dies Robert Bashlow had made. Seems to make sense if August made the transfer dies and struck these along with the restrikes for him.
4
Comments
I love those, but the fixed price ones I've seen are horrendously expensive.
I have no specific evidence but I am certain they were done with the Bashlow dies.
Me too. Transfer dies.
Looks like Harold Levi & George Corell call these paperweights in their book “The Lovett Cent, a Confederate Story”:
The following is the description from Yesterday's Change which sold #52 for $499.00. Might be interesting to create a list of these.
https://shop.yesterdayschange.com/products/1861-1961-confederate-cent-die-impressions-bashlow-copper-bar-restrike-paperweight
Seems like a pretty fair price.
I had one of those awhile back:
http://www.kittlecoins.com/1861CSAbar.htm
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Wow, those are nice !!!
I've never seen these before. I likie.
Very interesting items....Cheers, RickO
Nice photo of #48 @illini420!
Here's the reverse:
They might as well be Chinese.
They are all cool but I like the one illini420 had best. I'm not crazy about the spots on the first one posted.
I was watching that listing. The buyer got a good deal.
I bet I tossed one thinking it was junk.
Are you saying the Chinese are copying Americans?
Here's a photo of John White Haseltine that I just ran across:
http://www.icollector.com/Original-Photograph-of-Capt-John-W-Haseltine_i26241954
The one Illini420 had was pretty cool.
Last year at Long Beach there was a dealer with one that didn’t have the reverse markings. He didn’t believe his was an original bashlow die trial. Possible some more recent copies have been made.
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Looking at them as artifacts of the Civil War, I agree. Looking at them as novelties and as part of the history of our hobby, I disagree.
I take it you’re also not a big fan of Daniel Carr?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I like them. They're part of the Confederate cent story as a whole, and an interesting piece of it's history. Having been made with the copy dies from the Confederate cent original dies, they are "special." There are some fakes out there (I ran into one at a Long Beach show a few years ago.) The ones with the Augustus C. Frank on the "reverse" are all genuine that I've seen. The fake has a weaker and "fuzzy" strike, and also only had "numbers" on the reverse, and no Augustus C. Frank stamp.
They are pre-Hobby Protection Act (1973) so they are perfectly legal. I have no problem with them.
A small bit of history: I spoke with Bashlow just before he left on the trip to Europe where he was killed in a hotel fire. At that time some Elder dies that I knew Bashlow had owned were up for sale, and I asked him about the sale. He said that Frank had "stolen" (his word) the dies that Bashlow had left with him for safekeeping, and that he was going to sue to recover them when he got back from his trip, which of course never happened.
I later heard from a well-informed source that Bashlow had left the dies with Frank as collateral for certain minting fees that Bashlow never paid (pre-death), and that Frank sold the dies to recover its fees.
TD
Thanks for the info on the fakes @SullivanNumismatics. Here's one on Heritage:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/miscellaneous-medals-and-tokens/impressions-of-restrike-confederate-cent-dies-in-copper-block/a/1144-4978.s
I had followed these before and remember you offering #51 on eBay in the past with these photos:
Here is #4 from ArgoCoins with their copy of #9 from The Lovett Cent book:
https://argocoins.com/product/1861-confederate-cent-die-impression-vintage-bashlow-copper-bar-restrike/
Interesting. Along with other information, this means:
Does anyone have a copy of that book? I'd love to see the write-up and pics for the fake ingots.
Unmarked Imitations, such as the item shown, are disreputable if legal fantasies. Counterfeits are illegal under all circumstances. Their makers/sellers are simply crooks and belong in prison.
Unmarked? Seems like they are marked to me with a stamp and number on the back.
Counterfeit? This is a bar of copper that weighs over a pound. No one would ever confuse these for a legit coin.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
That's one heck of an overweight planchet!
Not sure on what happened with the Confederate cent transfer dies. I assume that Bashlow disposed of them himself while the selling was good. He did all right in the 1960's, I spoke with him about Thomas Elder and other non-Confederate dies in 1979, long after his glory days were over.
“What are you in for?”
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I just bought this one (#71). I figured that even if it has no numismatic value, I can always use it for hand-to-hand combat.
We have #51 for sale
https://m.coinhelp.com/catalog/item/178527/10335503.htm
When had these been made?
Gustie Frank was most active as a die-sinker prior to the 1920's.
Number 5 is now available for $950.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Confederate-Cent-1961-Bashlow-Restrike-Copper-Ingot-Die-Trials-50-Struck/372735358327
Great bar and info!
Here's a short excerpt with parties of note:
Also great to know the transfer dies are in the Smithsonian too:
I'd be curious to know when the fake bars started to appear and how they were encountered. Does anyone have info on that?
number 17 is on ebay now (not mine)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bashlow-Restrike-1861-1Cent-Confederate-States-of-America-ingot/113633964950
Still available for $1,789.00:
Very neat but over priced for what it is in my opinion.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Imagine if it was a block of silver?
It's not a true restrike like the Scott restrike of the CSA half dollar since they used transfer dies to make this rather than the actual dies. Neat but overpriced.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If only one had the transfer hubs, which would be true restrikes
It's pretty amazing what the "restrike" cents sell for now.
1800$ For a copy of a copy of a fantasy issue made by a conartist. People let their imagination run wild and their wallet is the one who pays the price for the stupidity.
These are fictitious souvenirs made by a coin dealer a generation after another coin dealer made fictitious souvenirs to fill the gap in the market for Confederate coinage (that was never made save for 4 half dollars). Calling them period tokens is even slightly misleading considering the originals date a decade after the war.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I just got #17.
17 & #71 are my new pair of brass knuckles.
Anyone have any idea why my block is different? My block does not have the Aug. C. Frank stamp on the bottom, and also on the bottom mine has a three digit number, 029. Also, just look at the force used in the strikes in mine - it's a full one eighth of an inch deep. This block weighs 1lb 7.4oz, and measures 3" x 1.5" and 1" high.
A trinket made by a dealer in the 20th cen off a copy off a trinket made by a dealer in the 19th cen
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Die trial?
There are some counterfeit blocks but I don’t have the diagnostics. I’ll try to find it.
There’s a big market for trinkets.
you speak the truth. I don't actually have a problem with the confederate tribute tokens. I have a problem with the people who confuse imagination as fact and mostly the people who capitalize on it for profit. I honestly wonder how many collectors think there is a legitimate or tangible connection back to the confederacy of the originals let along the later copies of copies. I don't know but seeing the prices of the originals, the lore created is clearly a big factor. My objections are simply trying to be the voice reminding all that the whole linage of the Confederate cent is bogus. Someone has too
That said there are plenty of hobby facts that are light on reality or evidence but this one is just crazy to me. Much of my objection to D Carrs stuff is not so much his product but the risk of truth losing out to a better story thorough the fog of time.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
It's really for the buyer to educate themselves. Even if they don't, it doesn't appear they will hurt financially.
Think of the Continental Dollars. They are now known to be European medals but that hasn't stopped very high prices and demand for them.
I don't think you need to worry about that. Not only does Dan provide very good records, a lot of his pieces are slabbed by ANACS, ICG and now PCGS. Given all the TPG activity, I'm pretty confident there will be good documentation. The only way all that documentation would be lost is another Dark Ages where collectible coins have no value.
@Zoins
The Continental dollars is a very good comparison BTW. I would note one difference that we basically know the CSA cents were made by a token/medal maker in the north for a coin dealer who sold them all to profit where we know very little about the CDs. The Continental dollars were probably made in Europe as a commemorative. Which is basically the same, something made completely away from where it purports to be made for intentions to sell the people for nostalgia.
I think we agree on most of the info we just view the correlation and relevance a bit different. My biggest grip is with the auction houses and dealers who walk the thin line between propagating the BS and educating the consumers although I agree with you the responsibility ultimately lies with the consumer even if many are idiots
As for Carr, you would be surprised the fickle memory of society though time. Who was the biggest pop star in 1911? Who came in 4th and failed to make the Olympics in fencing at the 1975 qualifiers in Spain ? Your great great great grandfather’s middle name? Being able to dig it up gets harder as society cares less. Once his site goes dark and we are all worm food and the hobby takes a dive due to Digital everything, who knows what info they hold on too. Many movies made by Hollywood have no known copies left, only random posters and there are still people alive who saw those movies in the theaters. Many of those posters will disappear too one day.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set