Counterstamp on a Morgan 1884-P

Jcld

Hi there, as I was going through some of my dollars, I noticed this one with a stamp N.S & Cc. Any ideas of what this is or why?

JBK

Probably "Co" rather than cc.

I don't have a Brunk book to see if it is listed.

Nice find.

It is called a counterstamp or countermark.

yosclimber

As @afford noted above:
R-Mav-127 N.S. & Co. (Nathan Snellenburg Phil. Dept. Store) C/S on 1889 Morgan $

Brunk counterstamp listings online; this one is listed under S:
http://www.exonumia.com/art/cmd.htm

ricko

Interesting find....there are collectors of counter stamps, so there may some added value...Had you not noticed this in your collection before? Seem fairly prominent and hard to miss...Cheers, RickO

Jcld

@ricko said:
Interesting find....there are collectors of counter stamps, so there may some added value...Had you not noticed this in your collection before? Seem fairly prominent and hard to miss...Cheers, RickO

Well . . . . . . . . Short story, I missed it, long story it was in a pile of coins that was mostly not dollars.

Jcld

Thank you for the info, so this Philadelphia store counter stamped Morgan Dollars? I can't find any info as to why, was it a promotional thing?

JBK

@Jcld said:
Thank you for the info, so this Philadelphia store counter stamped Morgan Dollars? I can't find any info as to why, was it a promotional thing?

That is asking for WAY too much!

Occasionally a specific purpose is know, but generally just being able to attribute a counterstamp is considered a great achievement.

In the case of yours, the store presumably used the punch to mark certain goods they were selling, and someone there decided to use it on some silver dollars.

Incidentally, the fact that your counterstamp is "common" enough to be recognized and attributed in the Brunk book actually enhances its marketability. A "one off", unknown counterstamp will generally sell for less than an attributed one.

JBK

@afford said:

@JBK said:

@Jcld said:
Thank you for the info, so this Philadelphia store counter stamped Morgan Dollars? I can't find any info as to why, was it a promotional thing?

That is asking for WAY too much!

Occasionally a specific purpose is know, but generally just being able to attribute a counterstamp is considered a great achievement.

In the case of yours, the store presumably used the punch to mark certain goods they were selling, and someone there decided to use it on some silver dollars.

Incidentally, the fact that your counterstamp is "common" enough to be recognized and attributed in the Brunk book actually enhances its marketability. A "one off", unknown counterstamp will generally sell for less than an attributed one.

I disagree with you last statement. First Brunk means zero to me, those depicted in his book were either from his collection or of others he was aware of. Bruno collected anything and everything, does a counterstamped coin that he wasn't aware of lessen its historical significance or even its value? Of course not. He just made an accounting of ones he found and then researched them, we can research them too and it doesn't lessen their value/importance. In fact I love finding what he missed. And if I found a c/s example that is found in his book and there are numerous examples known or currently out there then their commonness speaks volumes i.e. it s an easy one to locate and the value should decrease.
I realize I am not the norm in my thinking, but thats ok.

I am basing my approach on two things: 1) I had the impression that attributed counterstamps tend to end up in Brunk, or at least are highlighted there, and attributed is preferable to unattributed, and 2) major TPGs such as PCGS will only slab Brunk (and maybe Rulau?) listed coins, or at least that is the way it used to be,

I love all c/stamps and have many that are not in Brunk, some of which I know the origin of. There are many that are being attributed all the time which is great, and hopefully they will end up in a book, but until they do I don't think the knowledge will get very far.

I had mentioned "marketability", not desirability or historical value. I do not consider all of those to necessarily be the same...

Value of counterstamps is, in my experience, often counterintuitive. Some that are fairly common are also valuable or at least have a reliable worth. The 1840s "VOTE THE LAND FREE" on large cents comes to mind. If only a single example was known and it was not attributed, I think it would sell, but only as a curiosity and a mystery. But, since they are attributed and common enough to be available and popular, they are in high demand and easily fetch a couple hundred dollars or more.

The same goes for the 19th century "DR. G. G. WILKINS" counterstamps. They are attributed and published and have a great backstory, so they are popular and have a steady value, despite being rather common.

Just my opinion, but I am happy to hear other perspectives in case I am missing something, which is highly likely since this is such a niche area of collecting.

I don't even own a Brunk, although I will buy the next edition as I will reportedly be mentioned in it.

JBK

@afford said:
Good discussion.
The fact that PCGS attributes what is in Brunk only is silly, as if no other c/s deserve mention or recognition.

That's for sure.

So I do my own attributions, a great deal of time and fun but when I do end up attributing them and they aren't in Brunk I believe I have scored.

Just be sure to share the information (maybe you already do). That to me is the true value of Brunk - it is a repository of knowledge, but it is far from complete.

And, I did learn long ago that we can all be Brunks. I do have a lot of respect for what he has done, but there are other sources of this type of knowledge as well. As you have proven, there are other sources of attributions as well. Furthermore, Brunk has his own preferences that weigh on how some stuff is reported - some worthy counterstamps get stuck in the "back of the book" while others that are a lot less interesting (generic "sterling", "cast steel", etc.) get more prominent mention.

asheland

Cool counterstamp!

Jcld

This is awesome I had no idea Brunks was even a thing until now. I don't think it is "asking too much" to at least be curious about why the dollar and apparently several others were counter stamped.

JBK

@Jcld said:
This is awesome I had no idea Brunks was even a thing until now. I don't think it is "asking too much" to at least be curious about why the dollar and apparently several others were counter stamped.

I think you might be missing my point. To even know who did this over a hundred years after the fact is a huge accomplishment in itself. To know exactly WHY they did it is almost always an impossibility. Too wonder about it is fine, but to expect an answer is usually not reasonable unless you have a time machine and can go back and ask the issuer.

A few counterstamps (especially commemorative ones) are well documented at the time of issuance, but most are not. It is almost a miracle that certain counterstamps can be attributed at all. The exact reason for their existence, other that "advertising", is just speculation.