Planchet adjustment marks on a Morgan.
Coinstartled
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Rather pronounced on a coin of this era.
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Coinstartled
Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
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Yeah, those are roller marks that weren't struck out, not adjustment marks. They were made when the strip was drawn before the blanks were punched.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Even more interesting under magnification. Marks run as high as the U in plur
https://coins.ha.com/itm/errors/1901-s-1-morgan-dollar-planchet-adjustment-marks-obverse-pcgs-genuine-unc-details/a/131836-21786.s?
Roller marks as noted.
Weight adjustments in that era were made to the edge, not face of blanks.
Now -- Explain why these "roller marks" would be visible on relief that got the greatest pressure and deformation, and not on the adjacent field....?
Coin says Pin Adjustment, not planchet.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Pln = "Planchet"
I know this to be true for gold coins as I've seen the evidence.. Never considered the silver coins. I shall start looking.
The relief DOES NOT get the greatest pressure. Think about it as I'm going to bed. Hint: The relief is made by depressions in the die face. Consider flat strikes. Where is the most pressure?
@Insider 2: Thanks, I get it now. My bad.
When I read "Planchet Adjustment" or "Adjustment Marks", I think specifically of the peri-colonial period where files were used to adjust the weight of the planchet, especially on gold coins. I'm not familiar with that specific practice carrying through to the late 19th century. Can you further illuminate?
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
In a conversation about a dozen year ago with JP Martin, he described these 'lines' on 01-S (and perhaps 02-S through 04-S, I forget) Morgan dollars being caused by burrs along the edge of the rolling press outlet. During blank manufacturing process the bar stock is rolled to the appropriate thickness. There is an opening where the rolled bar stock exits and burrs along that opening put fine lines (gouges) onto the bar stock. These lines remain after the blanks are punched and the planchets are formed. When the coins are struck, they look like fine scratches or adjustment marks, since the lines are incuse on the struck coin.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I have seen some very faint examples of these marks on Morgans, but this is the most extreme one. The magnified picture is very interesting. Cheers, RickO
Would this impaired blank have been intentionally placed in the collar damage side up with the marks horizontal as opposed to vertical?
Wonder as well if having been placed impairment down, the added strike pressure would have obliterated the evidence.
Seems that on Early dollars, the adjustments appear in a similar horizontal and obverse fashion.
San Francisco appeared to produce the highest quality of the early Morgans, was this still true in the nineteen hundreds?
Planchets were dumped into a hopper at random and entered the feeding tube at random, so no.
RE: "The relief DOES NOT get the greatest pressure. Think about it as I'm going to bed. Hint: The relief is made by depressions in the die face. Consider flat strikes. Where is the most pressure?"
Can you explain a little more for new collectors?
PS: Adjustment of blanks and planchets is described at length in From Mine to Mint.
So these marks could have been vertical? It would be interesting to see an example.
No, blanks are not put into the press by hand under normal circumstances.
Adjustment marks that are not struck out are found in ALL directions.
You wrote the EXCELLENT book that I keep close. So I'll let you think it out first and explain it.
Please provide an image or two.
RE: "You wrote the EXCELLENT book that I keep close. So I'll let you think it out first and explain it."
The phenomenon is explained in the book mentioned. It would be nice to read other explanations - maybe different language would help readers understand better. Surely someone "in the trade" would be better able to communicate this subtle circumstance.
I'll give it a shot later - after I look at your book.
@Coinstartled, It will take me time to find them. But I will. Please PM me as a reminder. Until then, you might look on the internet at 1794 and 1795 $ or 18th Century French Ecu.
shocked that PCGS got it wrong. SHOCKED!
We call them "planchet flaws" or "roller marks."
I'll need to see what they are called in Roger's book.
Edit: ok...here in a good example on a half dime.
I have that book. Unfortunately, it is in the queue right now. So many books, so little time. I think it is #3 in that queue.
The direction is generally consistent but in many cases they must turn the coin several degrees. These marks are found on coins from all over the world. On many, the adjustment marks are actually in an "X" pattern! I'll get some images but REMIND me in a PM
@Barndog said: "I have that book. Unfortunately, it is in the queue right now. So many books, so little time. I think it is #3 in that queue."
If you are what many call a "serious numismatist" you'll bump it up. I read several books at a time and with Rogers, I jumped around rather than reading it straight through.
That is ok, Insider. I will be off grid for a spell.
Others may be interested. You can bookmark the thread as I just did.
Roller marks! That's what JP called them ... thanks.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
The marks are neither "adjustment marks" nor "planchet flaws." Otherwise, some common descriptive name is OK....I forget what I used in the book. (Use the CD included with the book as an index.)
DISAGREE!
Let's keep this simple. ANY IMPERFECTION to a planchet IS A FLAW. Therefore, the words "planchet flaw" covers lots of things. Numismatists have given many of them specific names such as clip, roller mark, and adjustment mark, In some cases, we may not know the exact cause of an imperfection yet "planchet flaw" covers all the bases.
I never got a CD.
Looks like the bookseller may be making an additional sale to someone. Hope you got a cut.
Thanks! Great example. Note that they go in two perpendicular directions as an "X."
Starting on the right, 4 to 11, 5 to 10, and 6 to 2.
Until 1904, yes. The 1921-S Morgans, on the other hand, are some of worst of the entire series, and finding a nice, sharply struck one with frosty luster is extremely difficult.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
@Coinstartled asked: "Would this impaired blank have been intentionally placed in the collar damage side up with the marks horizontal as opposed to vertical?
@messydesk replied: "Until 1904, yes."
I think this is misleading and not what you intended to imply. AFAIK, the blanks were gravity fed. I may be mistaken and look forward to being corrected.