The impact of the Hansen collection on Numismatics
Gazes
Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have noticed some consequences that relate to the Hansen collection that I thought I would post. Some may be obvious, others not. Some you may disagree with me. Just my opinion. In no way should my observations be interpreted as negative towards the Hansen collection. I am a fan of the collection and wish him best of luck. Anytime someone takes on such a massive "project" and spends this much money---it will have an impact regardless of what anyone's opinion is about the collection. Whenever the Hansen collection is mentioned, there are usually a few posts that essentially say "I don't care". Everyone is free to care or not but this is a coin message board and it seems relevant to me to discuss one of the great collections being built. Obviously there are other incredible collections being built but Hansen's is somewhat unique---it is very public, it touches on every series of U.S. numismatics and it has been done at breakneck speed (relatively speaking). Its uniqueness has caused a variety of different impacts on the market:
1) Some collectors have sold coins or collections that they may have kept---I think for sure some collectors who had coins that Hansen may want or need sold coins earlier than they expected in fear of missing out maximizing their value. My hunch is most of these collectors took the money and are looking at other areas of numismatics to collect. This may be one of the biggest impacts of the collection on individual collectors of top coins.
2) Prices have increased on top 2 or 3 pop coins. I can't necessarily prove this but my own experience in the area of coins I collect is that I have seen top 2 or 3 type population coins go for money that not only broke a record but smashed it. On many occasions that coin has ended up in the Hansen collection. I know there are more than a handful of coins I would have won but for Hansen beating me (no sour grapes here---they were great coins and I think he will do well with them). Without a date, throwing Hansen into the mix on any coin seems to have increased the price for that coin.
3) Depending on how long Hansen's collection remains intact, many top pop coins will be off the market for as long as he wants. His constant upgrades in series across the board has given him many of the top pop coins. If someone wants those type of coins, they will have to look at the next grade down unless he decides to sell. This impact may in the end be the greatest.
4) Increased interest in Eliasberg's collection----hard to avoid looking back at what Eliasberg did as Hansen tries to replicate it and/or surpass it.
5) It seems that this collection has made coin collecting a bit more of a spectator sport. We have an epic thread on this board following every move (I love that thread) with comments on coins purchased and holes still needing to be filled. Maybe there have been similar situations but I can't think of them.
I have some other thoughts but will leave it at this for now.
Comments
My feeling is that Hansen is one level, and I'm on another one, far below him. The great thing about Hansen is that I don't think that he is keeping his duplicates. That's wonderful because it gives others a chance to enjoy his cast-offs. I am enjoying one now. So far as I’m concerned, Hansen is not hurting me so why should I have anything negative to say about him? Perhaps his collection will be the makings of a very good book.
The only collectors, or more accurately hoarders, who get on my nerves are the jerks who try to corner the market. Those people are like the pig who lies in the trough to keep the others from getting anything. In the end everybody loses because a lot of food ends up on the ground, and the trough pig has to eat his own filth.
The people who try to corner markets often fail to do so and usually end up paying some inflated prices. Others are denied the opportunity to enjoy the items. At the same time, the hoarder has hard time getting his or her money out intact because the market is only able to absorb some much material at a time for a price. In the end, those who try to corner the market often end up losing money or going to more trouble than it was worth.
I know/knew a few guys like that. I understand if they want a dupe or two for trading purposes, but I for one will not buy an problematic coin because he or she has all the good ones. I can find another coin to enjoy and another person to associate with.
I'm in a whole different collecting world, so Hanson really has no impact on me. If he ever decides to do the varieties I would have an impact on him however as I have many top pop Dime varieties.
JMHO as a novice observer in this part of collecting world
If you have the mean then it's your prerogative to burn it however it pleases you
so I don't see it as bad nor good.
The big fish plays amongst the bigs but the sharks are always there where ever you look; at lesser and various levels the same concept applies.
I accepted the fact that it is a way of live as well as out of my league so I enjoy following his progress even more
Cheers
*edited for grammar
When someone collects at the level of Hansen, the one thing that could most impact collectors would be a decision on his part to do other than sell the coins back to collectors when he is done. If he is inclined to bequeath it to an institution, some may never be available again. In stamps, a collection left to the NYC public library has been pilfered and mishandled and unavailable for ages.
Yep, I sure don't ride in the floats in parades that big.
What surprises me somewhat is the publicity he allows (and I assume encourages) covering his every move.
I'm sure it's as reported that he is a committed collector but I always wonder at the ability to continue interest at such fast pace.
I'd love to have a few of the coins he's garnered.
It's actually a bit remarkable that he has come out of the gate so fast.
I like the fact that he's bringing more attention to collecting. People can see and talk about his progress.
A while back there was a post saying that all the great collectors were gone. It's nice to have a new collection to talk about.
Im still not sure who this Hanson fellow is but from what I hear he’s not collecting what I am so I doubt he has any impact on “my” numismatics.
I think that it extremely impressive what Mr. Hansen has done to date. Can you imagine what would happen to the prices of better coins if a handful of extremely wealthy people decided to collect coins, especially 18th and 19th century material? There is a ton of money out there!
It’s interesting to imagine how much more of an impact on the market DLH would have had if he had tried to build the collection one coin at a time, rather than buying so much of it as already completed registry sets.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
High-end collections always benefit the numismatic world. It is great that Mr. Hansen is sharing the formation of his collection via the Registry and social media - we don't have to wait 30 years for an auction catalog to come out.
Ditto the National Coin Collection under some misguided curators (coin cleaners).
As far as impact, I think he has had an impact on the prices of many coins.
It’s a thin market and it cuts both ways. Can you imagine what would happen if a few of the current whales exited?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I think his quest is a net positive for the hobby. It draws interest from the public (perhaps once it hits the news) and average collector alike. It’s what hobbyist dreams are made of to be in his position.
Plus having serious competition for the rich whales provides extra drama for the peanut gallery and the hobby media.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
When the second part of the Eliasberg collection hit the market, it pulled the hobby out of the doldrums. I was accumulating DMPL Morgans at the time and even ultrararities were available and buyable. Not so easy in the wake of those sales. There was a renaissance of collecting interest broadly (except perhaps commems) across the market.
There was a different environment then though. Third party grading and sight unseen sales were reaching an apex in respectability. The Internet was reaching most people finally, along with online markets (notably eBay). Ordinary collectors were participating in major auctions. They were not technically excluded prior to then, but more often they bought via dealer representation, and catalogues were costly - not all free on demand and not online.
All that is different now. We also have an environment of speculation, where collectors are eyeing profitable exits. There are serious registry collectors, in competition with Hansen as well. So there is an array of matket dynamics potentially affected in varying degrees.
I'd say Hansen has probably increased the Price Guide estimates for a few higher end coins or scarce dates...but the Guide figures were probably too low to start with...I haven't really seen any examples of him overpaying by some obscene amount...
To steal from @Catbert, I think his goal is a net positive for the hobby.
I am a big fan of the collection and the guy doing it, but his sets have knocked two of my sets down in the registries. One was previously #1 and one was #2.
Knowing I can’t possibly compete, it took a bit of the wind out of my sails when it came to potential upgrades. I haven’t touched either of those sets for many months now.
All in all, it’s not a bad thing as collecting for registry bragging rights is pretty hollow. I’m focusing in other areas and still having plenty of fun.
It’s fun to watch from here.
He's a great collector with a great story of real estate investing; very solid rational investing strategy; the more strong investors/collectors we get in the hobby with top notch tastes the better.
it was good meeting Hanson at the ANA. He spent time talking about his quest and is very proud of what he has done so far. He was quite humble IMHO. He took the time to show me his Seated Dollar on display that he acquired from TDN. In that vain, he is great for coins and I wish we had several more collecting at the top.
On the other hand, I feel that he will be owning the PCGS registry sets and that will take away from the PCGS registry sets knowing you can't be in first place.
Well the only down side of his collecting is that there is an elevated price sometimes when a coin comes around because those who are trying to sell want the big fish to bite. Thats why it is good he has DLRC or others doing some of the buying for him. However since I started a registry set, I knew I would never be on top and I was more about getting "my" set accomplished than worrying about some one else. And he (Hansen) should do the same.
WS
I have been enjoying watching his progress. It has helped keep me engaged with the hobby as well.
The inability to get the #1 ranked Registry Set is an interesting effect. Does that mean collectors will generally try for the #2 spot or stop trying?
Look him up on the internet. When it first became public what he was doing, that's what I did. I planned to write him a letter offering to give him a class on surface alterations, types of surface friction and luster loss, etc. as all slabs are not created equal - even at the MS-66 to MS-69 level. Then I saw who was helping him.
I disagree about the Registry Sets. There is always a best in most things. We all can't be a Hall of Fame Football player. Those with even a #5 set should be very proud!
America is about winning and #1 has always had a special meaning. Not everyone tries to compete for the best, but now the best may be unobtainable for many.
Last year, Hanson was the HOF inductee for Complete U.S. Coin Collections, but there were 5 Specialized Area Sets and 4 Individual Sets. imagine if all 10 here Hansen sets?
In regards to #3, I did the whole registry thing with my nickels. A lot of my 'top pop' coins went from say, 1/0, now to 1/4 or some crazy stuff (e.g. my 1867 PR65DC). Take a look at my link in my sig, and in the notes of a bunch of my coins I noted the pop when I bought it, and then I update it once in a while. I stopped the whole top pop thing because in the end I'm gonna get killed paying outrageous prices, only to have the pop change so dramatically in a spawn of a few years.
As for absolute rarities, that's a whole other story.
What I do think it happening is some major crackouts and/or resubmissions to try to get 'top pop' coins to sell. I've noticed a spike in population reports.
My Type Set & My Complete Proof Nickel Set!
@Zoins said: "America is about winning and #1 has always had a special meaning."
LOL. What country do you live in?? While this was true in the past including my generation, it is no longer exclusively true. I'll give you a PARTICIPATION RIBBON for your post.
That may be true for grade school, but it's certainly not true for professional sports.
How about a participation mention in the PCGS HOF Press Release?
LOL and appreciate the post. I won't take away your ribbon BUT that is a very selective group. The folks I'm commenting on (the apples) outnumber the professionals (the weasel-out oranges) you picked at least 20K to one! Like it or not, generations of citizens have been taught that being the best is not the "end-all" to be strived for. Thus, most have been dumbed down to a much lower level than they could have achieved in a VERY PUBLIC attempt to make us all FEEL "equal" that has been going on for decades. I'm sorry that you don't see it. I should hope you are not relying on the biased information that is being fed to all of us.
PS: Color me EXTREMELY IGNORANT! I have absolutely no idea what this is: "How about a participation mention in the PCGS HOF Press Release?"
I talked with several collectors that would be doing the pcgs registry sets and they decided not to do the sets, because they won't settle for #2. It hard to compete against Hansen when all the dealers offer him the finest coins first before others. I guess life is not fair but this will take away from the registry sets. The registry sets were one of the best marketing ideas for coins in a long time. Clearly, collectors sent in coins looking for upgrades to add to the registry sets. if you can't be number 1 then resubmissions will be lighter. just my thinking.
Yes, I agree with you. a couple of comments,
1- the purposes of the registry sets were to share and compete in a friendly environment. This will no longer be the case as you are only going to be #2 not #1, so why bother.
2- Originally the idea of the registry sets were to get more coins in pcgs holders and get more coins regraded. If you have a 64 and it gets regraded to a 65 but that doesn't get you in first place then why resubmit for regarding.
It sure seems like you're fond of ribbons. Been handing out a lot lately? I don't have any so there aren't any to take away.
Since you seem to know so much about ribbons, I'm surprised you don't know PCGS doesn't have them! Show me PCGS handing out a Hall of Fame award to everyone with a Registry Set and you might convince me
You can start here:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/awards/
I suspect over 90% of PCGS registry set holders are not trying to be number 1. For me, I set my goals and work to achieve them.
interesting. when I posted my OP I was hoping to hear about the impact of the Hansen collection---never thought about this.
I do think there are certain sets that a top 5 would be amazing and turn heads .
There are other series where a top 5 would not get much attention
@EastonCollection said: "I talked with several collectors that would be doing the pcgs registry sets and they decided not to do the sets, because they won't settle for #2. It hard to compete against Hansen when all the dealers offer him the finest coins first before others. I guess life is not fair but this will take away from the registry sets. The registry sets were one of the best marketing ideas for coins in a long time. Clearly, collectors sent in coins looking for upgrades to add to the registry sets. if you can't be number 1 then resubmissions will be lighter. just my thinking."
Perhaps You can get PCGS to change the rules. That's a very common thing in this country today. One I forgot completely in my post above. For those who cannot pass the strength test for the job, change the requirements!
LOL, decades ago, I was one of the beneficiaries of this crap - ever hear of "Grading on the Curve!." Then they got rid of letter grades for a few semesters and had only "Pass/Fail." Thank goodness that was trashed after a short period.
So before leaving the Registry Set Program, why don't a bunch of you folks lobby PCGS. Request that Mr. Hansen's sets be ignored so you can have bragging rights again. IMO, your set should stand on its own, Hansen or no Hansen.
@Zoins said: "Insider2, it sure seems like you're fond of ribbons. Been handing out a lot lately? I don't have any so there aren't any to take away.
LOL, PM me with your address and I'll lay a few YARDS on you. One of the neatest things I ever saw at a coin show was a case cover made out of decades of ribbons from the shows he and his wife had attended. I get two at every major show I get to attend.
@Zoins said: Since you seem to know so much about ribbons, I'm surprised you don't know PCGS doesn't have them! Show me PCGS handing out a Hall of Fame award to everyone with a Registry Set and you might convince me.
While I know a lot about ribbons, especially making different bows for Christmas, I am completely ignorant of virtually everything related to the Registry Sets. Seems like a great business move.
Again, thanks for your replies to me and your participation. I think I'll keep your ribbon for myself as I don't think you would appreciate it.
He appears willing to sit back and not bid on the really great coins and just grab the ones that seem to be bargains.
Not how I would do it
Wasn't the bargain approach used by Kevin Lipton and John Albanese for the Dexter 1804 Dollar?
Yup - but they’re dealers looking for a profit ....not a collector trying to do something historic.
I have no idea why he let you buy the 13, but how how can you possibly think that he's come this far this fast only buying "bargains"?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I specifically said bargains on the ‘really great coins’ ...ie: ultra rarities.
He bought the 54-S but only because it fell into JA’s lap at a relatively low price (much the same as my 1804...but we have different goals). He bought the worst 1804$1...at a low price because nobody really wanted to chase it. Finest known 1913? Not a peep
If I was doing his set with his budget, that would have been a Statue of Liberty coin...just sayin.
you missed my point. I am not suggesting that folks will stop collecting nor stop building great sets. What I am saying is many more folks that are building great sets will not list their sets on the registry. I brought this up because several collectors that were thinking about listing their sets on the registry but decided against doing so. Not because they don't have a fantastic set but they felt there was no point in listing them. Why be second or third (or 32nd) for the world to know when they tell only those they want to share their sets with.
I can’t relate to competitive coin collecting.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Yap .... agreed 100%
Do not stop having fun just because you happened to be in someone else's shadow