Well Fargo Double eEagles
JRH
Posts: 542
Question.....I see a lot of MS66 Wells Fargo double eagles that seem over graded or not struck well or do not have great luster. Is this my imagination or is there some valid reason for this. I'm trying to find a good type coin MS66 double eagle but don't feel confident with a Wells Fargo gold. Any information nation would be appreciated.
JRH
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Nothing against the coins or the grading company, but every time I see this label I think "re-established 2018." Like that's a good thing.
Wells Fargo Hoard ... the history:
In the early 1990, nearly 10.000 high quality 1908 No Motto came into the market and were called the Wells Fargo Hoard.
They were untouched since 1917 and were originally designated as a WWI debt payments.
The coins were housed in a Nevada Wells Fargo Bank.
This a very fine example I would really love to add to her lowly siblings
I understand the pedigree and know the label ties it back to the hoard. I do love the history of these double eagles and I'm glad they survived. Just saying the label reminds me of something else.
Finding a 1908 NM with booming luster as found on the equally "common" 1924, 1927 and 1928 is very tough. They generally do not come with the same flash and look much more dull.
In terms of grading, believe it or not they are actually quite rare with a cac sticker on them- having about 1/3rd of the stickered coins of the equally common 1924, 1927 and more similar to a 1928.
They tend to trade at a lower premium in ms65 stickered and up but rarity wise seem much better value
At the time the hoard was slabbed the general concencus was that they were all over graded by two points. Perhaps in the intervening years gradeflation has caught up?
Did Wells Fargo participate in the naming and release of the hoard?
The 1908 No Motto $20's typically come in low relief with a somewhat "frosted" surface, unlike the 1908 With Motto and later coins. The models for both sides were revised when "IN GOD WE TRUST" was added to the reverse, and apparently a conscious decision was made at the same time to make the fields smoother.
Some people do not like their general appearance, and I can remember back in the days before the "Wells Fargo" hoard came out when many dealers used to post on their type gold buy sheets that they did not want any 1908 No Motto coins at the posted offer, or else they would post offers for the 1908 NM coins at a slightly lower price. I believe that this discount is no longer in effect.
The "Wells Fargo" coins do generally come with a rich golden toning from their long storage which, in my opinion, enhances their general appearance. It is also my opinion that some people used this enhanced eye appeal to justify the overgrading by technical standards that the "Wells Fargo" coins received. As I said elsewhere the general opinion at the time was that the typical coin had received a two-point smooch. Since that time grading standards have deteriorated.
These are all of the Type-I design (short rays, no motto) which was a carry-over from 1907. Everything is a little "mushy" especially stars. There were 19,900 DE in the the Gillio Hoard (aka, Wells Fargo Hoard). They were authenticated and graded by PCGS and NGC.
If you want to know more, read the book "Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles as Illustrated by the Morse and Dukor Collections" (Heritage auctions, 2018. Awarded Book of the Year and Best Coin Book for 2018.)
From the book:
"However nice the coins may look, there is also a certain stigma associated with them. Much of this is due to the volume of the hoard and its influences on collector perceptions. The coins are so commonly seen that some gold coin buyers discount Gillio/Wells Fargo Hoard coins when they are offered."
I have never been a provenance or hoard aficionado....Seems to add a premium that is totally unjustified - to me. I would not seek one of these out.... of course, if one showed up at melt, in a down market, I would not refuse it. Gold is good.....
Cheers, RickO
That's an excellent example!
My YouTube Channel
The Wells Fargo Hoard I believe consist of NM only but here are the mintage comparison with the Motto
1908 NM mintage 4.271.551
D 1908 Motto mintage 663.750
Was it REALLY a Wells Fargo hoard? From what I remember it was not a Wells Fargo hoard at all. But maybe that was just talk. From what I remember about the story/Rumor is that particular Wells Fargo Bank didn’t even exist in Reno Nevada at the time but was a hoard from like, Russia. I am sure not stating this as fact so don’t go wanting to beat me up over it
Happy hunting, Joe
Here we go again, it's always them sneaky Russians
No offense intended but I never heard that story/rumor, I guess anything is possible.
I always heard the coins were privately owned and stored in a Wells Fargo Branch for decades. I think using the Wells Fargo name was good marketing, makes you think of the old west, but I think it is a little misleading. If my understanding is incorrect please feel free to correct me.
Interesting discussion that I like !!!
1908 Type I 2,552,063 (short rays, no motto - 1907 hubs)
1908 Type II 1,701,988 (long rays, no motto - new obv hub, 1907 rev hub)
1908 Type III 156,258 + 101 sandblast proof (long rays, motto - new hubs)
Please read the Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle book for research details.
Ya need a story to get rid of a hoard like that.
The rumors that I heard at the time were that it came from overseas and was shipped to a Wells Fargo branch in America for temporary safekeeping.
The "Wells Fargo & Company" connection is nothing but marketing. As CaptHenway notes, the coins were held in a Wells Fargo bank branch for a few months.
Not a "Wells-Fargo" but my first gold purchase back in 1997.
I like it ... and to quote ricko
Gold is good...
I love it and it's in an OGH....Gold is Golden
Type I
The rate of CAC stickering is lower among the 1908 NM's than for other Saint-Gaudens DEs....but they ARE there.
A poster said some time ago that none of the MS-68 or 69's had been given a CAC bean, I believe that is still the case but maybe somebody knows for sure.
The coins in the PCGS OGH seem to be more likely to have the "luster" that many here talk about. I've seen some nice ones in MS-66. The lack of sharpness and luster -- the lousy strike -- is probably evidence of the dies getting worn rather than anything to do with the actual mechanical press, striking force, alignment, etc.
Nice reboot to an old thread.
Informative
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What confuses me now is that I have seen multiple references to 2 numbers for the total number of WF DEs: 19,900 and 9,000 or 10,000 (basically half the more widely-published number).
On the one hand, all the coins were investment and mint-grade. But the totals graded don't come to anywhere near 19,900 if you add them up by grades or if you add the total from PCGS + NGC and make an allowance for double-counting. Unless close to half of the coins were below MS-63 (below which it wouldn't have paid to have the coin graded) which I never read anywhere.
If anybody has anything to add on the total number of WF DEs, please do.
Re-reading some of my WF stuff, it does appear that the total of the 1908 No Motto Wells Fargo was 19,900 coins.
As told by Gillio to Bowers:
He (Gillio) has been very close-mouthed about ANY details on the hoard. I can understand being that way in the 1990's when it was being marketed and sold and you don't want to crater the market. I also understand that there has been some talk that maybe the hoard was MUCH LARGER than 19,900 Double Eagles -- maybe more DEs and/or other coins -- and that could have also been a factor. But it's now 25+ years since they were found/sold....however big the hoard was, every single coin had to have been sold long ago. So no market hush-hush rationale probably since 2005 if not earlier.
Back to the 19,900....if that WAS the actual count of 1908 NM's....there definitely aren't that many grading events at PCGS and/or NGC. Which means only that a good portion of the hoard of 19,900 was low-60's and/or AU quality and not worth grading given the size of the hoard. If the hoard was a few hundred coins, then even low-60's for a common date have some unique value. But not if there are almost 10,000 of the same coin in higher grades.
Again....Gillio certainly knows but hasn't confirmed to the best of my knowledge, at least not on the record or in print.
A wholesaler friend sold me some of them (MS66) when they first came out. Many of them PQ w super luster. Retailed them at subsequent shows / they did real well. Good retail money, margin / Wallet thick with Bens. Fantastic history.
Yes, some of the MS-66's esp. with a CAC and OGH look REALLY nice. Flaming gold color....I understand why people talk about the bulk of the 1908's as not having eye appeal, lack of luster, etc....but clearly some of the originals in Gem Quality (65 or 66) do stand out.
My only caveat is that I am going by hi-res pics, not in-hand. But I'll assume the photos weren't doctored or lighting playing any tricks. I even have some of these pics somewhere; if I can find them on my PC I'll post 'em here.