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Is the US Mint bad for the hobby?
LuckiBet
Posts: 2 ✭
In this video Scott Travers thinks the mint is taking much needed market share from actual numismatic dealers. I see his point but the original reason I got into coins was my granddad buying me mint issues as a kid. What's your opinion?
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Only if you let it be.
Well, without the mint we wouldn’t have a hobby.
Yes, big time Baseball cardation of numismatics.
And yet the vintage baseball card market is doing better than ever. Seems like a fairly neutral thing to me. Gain some people, lose some people. Either way the mint is essential to the hobby.
Yes, the mint is taking a larger and larger share of the available money spent by collectors. I can make the same argument about Auction Companies and their rising commission stuctures.
I don't think it is a big deal when the market is strong, but I think anything that diverts money from actual collector coin purchases can accelerate price declines in a weak market.
Good point, that is the harder question. But when I look at the original mint issues I got as a kid, none of them are worth anything now. Would have been much better for the hobby as a whole if grandparents were spending their $75 for coins that might actually appreciate with time instead of with the mint
Yes, yes it is. As long as they keep producing millions of these wanna be rarities you will have people buying them up for early release. Two years later they are worth crap. Good advice to a new coin collector is to steer away from this overproduced spaghetti hair stuff and to buy older classic collector coins. Just my 2 cents.
I may or may not watch his video, but does he have a history of the market share change over time? The mint's share went way up when they started selling bullion, but that probably just cannibalized other bullion sales, not "actual numismatic" stuff, so you can't count that. What is the share of the numismatic market consumed by grading companies? TV rip-off sales? Auction companies? The USPS? Which venues are responsible for destroying parts of the market (i.e., chasing people away from the hobby permanently)? The mint is not without blame for bloating their product catalog, but they're not the only entity to complain about.
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Yes, from these limited perspectives:
@LuckiBet....Welcome aboard. Interesting question. My answer would be 'No'. The mint products (outside of circulating coinage) do stimulate interest in new collectors, commemorate certain things of interest to segments of the population, and provide product for the lower economic levels of the hobby. The hobby is not being destroyed...that is myth. Cheers, RickO
Mixed feelings. I realize that things like the statehood quarter series probably got a lot of folks interested in coin collecting but it's like stamp collecting, too many variations and it can be overdone and destroy the hobby. Pennies, nickels and quarters minted in the past 20 yrs or so seem to change designs all the time and aren't worth collecting, IMO. After reading this board for a while you think the mint would listen and start minting "toned" coins.
Seem many here (not me) would buy them all.
Demographics is having a much bigger effect. None of my kids have any interest; when I was a kid most boys at least had some coins.
No. The author somehow expects special treatment to force purchases though intermediaries. Bologna!
I would say no.
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OK. I'll play that game. US Mint suspends all coining operation. FR starts printing notes down to 5 cents and the 1 cent is gone forever. Coins are still legal to use, but banks don't hand them out, all that come in are scrapped.
In 5 years, coins have disappeared, and in 25 years, they are just a footnote to the US History, like Sales Tax Coins, Whale oil lamps, slide rules, etc. Postage stamps are already heading that way. Basically, no new collectors come on scene.
I am in the automotive business. There is a term Orphan cars, ones that are no longer made, be it a RAmbler or a Pierce Arrow or even just a model that is deal, for example a Ford Tempo. The parts supply dries up, the people who owned one have moved on, and MOSTLY, the cars are relegated to the odds and ends section of car shows and few parts are made or available, and it becomes prohibitively expensive to restore one.
Think about Mustang (50+ years) Corvette (since 1953, but one year with no production, but sold last year models so people fight if Corvette in continuous). etc. Those cars have staying power with 3 generations of owners now.
What these guys (and many, many others) don't take into consideration is many of the Mint products are mandated by law. The First Spouse coins is a prime example. No one wanted them, the Mint probably didn't want to make them, but the law stated collector versions are to be made, and there you are.
Also because of the way the law dictates what the Mint can produce (in both dimension and metal type), they're forced to pretty much repackage products (like all the ATB products), or have another mint stamp out some coins so they can sell a coin with a different mint mark. (ATB quarters and now, ASE's.) They're unable to get creative, because they're not allowed to. And in areas they are allowed some freedom, they produce things like the outrageously priced American Liberty series.
They could reduce prices on almost all of their products if they'd charge what it really costs them to make mint and proof sets, their loss leaders, but that would probably kill off three of their core products, two of which are mandated.
They're also wrong about the Mint's marketing. It sucks. For instance, if they actually advertised the clad BBHoF coins during say, a baseball game, they could have sold out the 750K. But as far as I know, there was no mass-media marketing. They rely mostly on word of mouth and the numismatic press.
Now having said all that, I don't want the Mint to turn into RCM or Perth, either...
The mint lost me as a retail customer years ago - I won't name all the reasons because they aren't worth my time.
The only modern product I buy is bullion. That's it.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
Except when you bring your 5 year old proof set to a coin shop to sell and get offered less than half the purchase price, you quit collecting forever
Can you imagine what coin values for truly nice rare old coins would be, if the same amount of money that is spent on the mints' new stuff every year was competing for classic coins? In a way, good thing its not, right? At least, until our collections of draped bust pieces are finished.
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They are in some ways. That being uninspired designs. A lot of modern world coins have innovative designs and processes. You've heard me say it before but I'll say it again - why hasn't the mint adopted ringed bi-metalic coinage for $1 and above?
Keyword: VINTAGE.
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the new online tax, once enforced- will do more damage then anything else
2 things:
What is Scott Travers? Is he a dealer or only a numismatic writer? If a dealer, then, of course he will say that any creating entity that sells straight to collectors is taking money away from dealers. They want ALL the money
Is the USMint a bad thing? No. Without it, there would not be US coins, right?
Now, you can move past that and ask if they are 'hurting' the current modern market with how they are doing things, and then, I would say "yes".
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
When the mint makes a coin and won't sell it to the public, then you have to buy it from the secondary market at a much higher price. For example, last years Palladium coin. There's definitely room for both dealers and the mint. You can't buy an old classic from the mint.
When those 2017 Congratulations Sets ( with the 2017-S ASE ) went on Sale I impulsively ordered 15 Sets. I was somewhat on the fence but my clickmania got the best of me. Well, it sold out in what.... 8 minutes? I got the Coins from the PO and marched them to a Coin Show going on about 3 miles away ( Macomb County Coin Show). Amazingly no one acted like this limited quick sell out item was much more than a box of rocks. The Dealers I spoke to were just so full of it , most saying.... oh John over there just sold a bunch of those at Mint issue price. Only one Dealer, a Guy from Ohio, showed any interest at all. I sold my unopened Box of 15 for about $75 each, a small profit of about $300. Hot product?
My enthusiasm for Mint issue Coins sort of grew extinct from that experience. My enthusiasm for Coin "Dealers" really grew extinct like instantly.
It sure isn't good for the hobby.
It was far better 50 years ago.
Yes.
They created monsters. I'm not afraid of monsters
I have a love / hate relationship with the Mint. I do like some of the products but would like to see them cut down on the number and make the issues more meaningful. I have nothing against the organizations etc. of the commems they are producing but seriously, IMO an issue by the Mint should have some historical perspective and not be something just to keep sales up. I suspect that the folks at the top have a bonus structure based on sales...maybe.
And the designs of the last 20 years have been mostly uninspiring...please, please change the designs of the circulating coinage! I think that would boost interest as it would make sets collectible again without having to put together a mega-set like a complete set of Washington quarters!
K
That's exactly my point. So I presume you would agree that the mint does not hurt the vintage coin market?
Let me clarify my position. Does the mint hurt the MODERN coin market? Absolutely! Does the mint hurt the VINTAGE market? Absolutely not! But I think the vast majority of users here (and this discussion) are concerned with the vintage market when referring to "the hobby".
Greed, pushy sales people, lies, counterfeits and excess US Mint special offerings (NCLT coins and bullion) all contribute.
Not at all. Where else would we get those fantastic error coins?
No. The author somehow expects special treatment to force purchases though intermediaries. Bologna!
Agree. I have plenty of complaints about the Mint, but taking market share away from dealers isn't one of them.
I knew it would happen.
.... the hobby is a phenomena. People are unique and each has his or her or their own path in it. It is all good. It's not a problem. The stuff minted will be collected.
+1
YES!
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
I could care less and I do!
When you think about it, the mint really doesn't get much say in WHAT gets minted for the collector market. It's all legislated by special interests.
Two Questions:
Are mint and proof sets minted to demand or is there a fixed mintage set before they are even struck?
Is there a bulk buyers program for mint ans proof sets?
My impression was the off metal denomination pieces didn’t require approval like gold half dollar, gold dime, 5 oz silver quarter, etc.
Ah, very well could be. Although I think the 5oz silver ATB's were included in the legislation for the ATB circulating coinage program. I recall that being a topic of discussion when it was announced.
The mint mints coins, it is were coins come from witch leads to the hobby of coin collecting, no mint no coins, no hobby. If you mean their collectibles such as proof sets, mint sets and commemoratives I believe, in my opinion if the mint creat the product they are interested to price it, and then the the collectors decided the value if they want to sell them or pass them down to others collectors.
Yes. It is doing what USPS has done to stamp collecting since at least the 1970s - too many junk issues and artificial rarities. Collectors have difficulty maintaining complete sets, and when missing issues, they find out they don't really miss any of the issues at all and stop collecting them.
For dealers, the Internet and direct sales from the Mint have helped collectors cut out the middle man (i.e. low end coin dealers). I don't shed any tears for them and do not see it as either positive or negative for the hobby - it is merely another change. This hobby has evolved throughout the ages and continues to evolve.
Rather than bitching about the mint (which is providing a product that many people love) we should just merge classic and modern commems in the Redbook, CoinFacts, GreySheet, and in the registries. Modern collectors could relate to the pieces, since they tend to come in high grade, plus they're inexpensive and plentiful. If 5% of the buyers start collecting vintage as a result, the entire business would benefit.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Modern coins are definitely more approachable for new collectors, and are thus a good on ramp to classics.
Collectors like Hansen can help bridge the divide between moderns and classics.
No we need the mint they just need to think about making some coins that have style that every one will want to keep. Can you imagine if they made a standing liberty Quarter for circulation and every one can start collecting quarters again from circulation.
That is just one thing they can do but they just don't think about it they can do Seated looking Dime's, Barber looking Dimes and Quarters just something like a hybrid of all the coinage made in the back years. But put it in Circulation it will get others involved in the hobby. They can make $$$ in the sales of roll's and silver and gold coins they put out of the same type.
But the mint taking $$$ from dealers not really it's what the dealer buy's that will keep him or her in the business. I always say this buy right and you will always make $$$ but don't blame any one for your loss but your safe.
Hoard the keys.