So-Called Mule Over Morgan Overstrike - HK-613 + HK-621

Zoins

Anyone pick up this mule available a while back? It's an interesting coin.

Any idea know who struck this or where the dies are, or when this was struck?

Namvet69

And what is the love connection between New Haven Conn. and SC? Peace Roy

Timbuk3

Interesting, I like it !!!

keets

the most simple explanation might be that the same manufacturer made the dies/struck the medals and then made the mule. the second most simple explanation would be that someone outside of the manufacturer obtained the dies and made the mule.

I think it was probably the first explanation and absent any planchets they used a Morgan Dollar.

ricko

Certainly a unique piece....@keets is likely correct with explanation number one...No logical ties between the two areas, so probably just a trial striking that managed to survive. Cheers, RickO

Zoins

@Namvet69 said:
And what is the love connection between New Haven Conn. and SC? Peace Roy

I don't think we know. @keets mentioned the two big possibilities. So-CalledDollars.com doesn't list a manufacturer / mint (or designer, engraver) for HK-613 and HK-621. It's amazing how little information we know about many So-Called Dollars.

It was common for dealers to get a hold of Civil War Tokens dies and create mules or uniface restrikes, but I haven't seen these for So-Called Dollars before so I was interested in this piece. I would have had more interest in obtaining it at the offered price if the obverse and reverse dies were more similar.

If we knew the manufacturers of both, we could tie them together. Otherwise, if we knew of a person who obtained the dies later and restruck them, we could also tie them together. Right now, it's a mystery.

RogerB

Silver dollars were often used as the metal source for table ware, jewelry and other items. Many silversmiths in the south boasted about using "coin silver" in their products. Dollars (and to a lesser extent double eagles) were "planchets" for award medals, silver tokens and other things. (See my article on the first post-Civil War medals made at the New Orleans Mint.)

keets

on the HK-614/614a Type 2 New Haven is C. Theiler/ Meridan, Ct. which quite likely alludes to either the issuer or the manufacturer. I looked around but could find nothing. I'm sure a diligent search of old records could find information to sort things out.

DNADave

I like overstrikes such as this....meaning ones that aren't too similar the coin thats being used to begin with.

EXOJUNKIE

VERY COOL PIECE! I really like it!!! Thanks for posting it.

PocketArt

Interesting. Since New Haven is a coastal town; I wonder if this has anything to do about a historical transportation route by sea to South Carolina? IDK- it's about the only connection I can make. Perhaps railroad? Just trying to bridge the divide. This maybe a starting point if produced with any significance/meaning. Who's to say?

CaptHenway

Interesting.

Elder did various overstrikes using his dies, but neither of these have anything to do with him. I guess there just are certain people in life who, if you give them two dies, HAVE to strike something with them!

jonathanb

It's only unique in a literal sense (those dies on that particular Morgan dollar). There are several known overstrikes of the South Carolina die on other Morgan dollars.

Zoins

@jonathanb said:
It's only unique in a literal sense (those dies on that particular Morgan dollar). There are several known overstrikes of the South Carolina die on other Morgan dollars.

Do you have any reference to these? I would be great to have some more info.

Zoins

@keets said:
on the HK-614/614a Type 2 New Haven is C. Theiler/ Meridan, Ct. which quite likely alludes to either the issuer or the manufacturer. I looked around but could find nothing. I'm sure a diligent search of old records could find information to sort things out.

Here's an add from C. Theiler, Engraver & Die Sinker from a 1874 Cincinnati, Ohio business directory:

• https://www.fold3.com/document/125167250/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Bullsitter

It's just so sad that real Morgan Dollars were destroyed....

tokenpro

After hours play time has never been limited to just the U.S. MInt(s). As mentioned above, acquiring a die means that it must be used in some way whether if be simply making rubbings or foils of the surface, making lead die splashes, muling dies, overstriking Federal coinage or other numismatic material or making unauthorized restrikes intended to deceive as was done by a couple different Western collectors using Puget Sound Stamp Works dies or a Midwest dealer using Northwest Stamp Works dies.

BTW, most of the questionable off-metals, mulings & other fabricatia of Civil War tokens were simply ordered from and done by the die sinkers of the period on demand from collectors. A couple CWT dies can be traced to dealers or others who used them on post-period strikes such as Ben Franklin die #153 but the contemporary "funny things" came directly from the Civil War die sinkers (some reportedly after the end of the conflict).

Zoins

@tokenpro Do you know who did the dies or overstriking for the medal above? I’m still looking for info for a C. Theiler from Meridan, CT.

I’ve noted the Benjamin Franklin Fuld-153 strikes are fairly popular and expensive. Steve Hayden has a bunch in his recent auction and they all sold for about $1000 each. Do we know who did these?

coinsarefun

Very interesting. I was unaware of this. Thanks for posting it.

Pioneer1

@Zoins said:
@tokenpro Do you know who did the dies or overstriking for the medal above? I’m still looking for info for a C. Theiler from Meridan, CT.

I could not find much either on C. Theiler. I do have an 1881 Atlanta Cotton Expo WM piece made by that die sinker; not sure if this adds any additional useful information.

Zoins

@Pioneer1 said:

@Zoins said:
@tokenpro Do you know who did the dies or overstriking for the medal above? I’m still looking for info for a C. Theiler from Meridan, CT.

I could not find much either on C. Theiler. I do have an 1881 Atlanta Cotton Expo WM piece made by that die sinker; not sure if this adds any additional useful information.

Thanks for bringing this up again and it does help as it's top of mind again. It's great to see the medal and inscription on this piece.

Notably, at 31.7mm it's larger than HK-353 at 31.6mm.

A quick search now brings up C. Theiler's first name as Charles.

Joe Levine refers to a "Charles Theiler" in his 2009 Auction 79 catalog:

Joe Levine said:
205. 614. 250™ ANNIVERSARY OF NEW HAVEN - TYPE II
DOLLAR, 1888. 37.8mm. Bronze. Charles Theiler, Sc. Choice
red and brown Uncirculated. ($100-500).

Ref: https://archive.org/stream/auctionseventyni2013pres/auctionseventyni2013pres_djvu.txt

Pioneer1

... to add to the original discussion ... I think HK-613 / HK-613a was made by William Warner & Brother Co of Philadelphia because the reverse wreath is one of theirs..... so while C. Theiler is an interesting tangent, something tells me that the mule is something done in Philadelphia by Warner... interesting George Morgan's tie in....

Zoins

@Pioneer1 said:
... to add to the original discussion ... I think HK-613 / HK-613a was made by William Warner & Brother Co of Philadelphia because the reverse wreath is one of theirs..... so while C. Theiler is an interesting tangent, something tells me that the mule is something done in Philadelphia by Warner... interesting George Morgan's tie in....

Using the wreaths as a diagnostic is a great approach.

I wonder if Jeff @SoCalledGuy and Bill @Bsktmkr will attribute these to Warner using this approach.