Are certified "Cleaned" coins getting more love than they once did?
Hallco
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I'm seeing lot of cleaned and details coins in slabs getting some pretty strong money(and not just rare/key dates). At one time it seems like they were immediately discounted unless it was a rarity. Has the thought process changed by collectors...or even dealers in the past 10-12 years?
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I think there's still a market in a certain disreputable segment of the "dealer" community that likes to buy these, crack them out, and flip them on eBay, somehow forgetting to mention that they used to be in "details" slabs.
Many coins are improperly cleaned. In the past, many folks bought them without knowing. Today, they still buy them except now they can make a better decision about their purchase.
It all depends on what degree level of cleaning was done as on a good day lightly cleaned can straight grade.
Check out Gerry Fortin's blog for his experience at ANA. He was informed that the was not welcome an unnamed dealer's table after pointing out that this dealer was selling cleaned, raw coins at full retail.
Good that you @Hallco brought this up....I thought the same thing for example the 1915 Pan Pac; the choice would be AU detailed slabbed or obvious cleaned raw for almost the same price.
IMHO the popularity commands this kind of price
Many collectors simply can't detect cleaned coins. They end up getting stuck with this dreck.
And how a coin was cleaned may be better way to approach this. Was it a kid in the 50s using a pencil eraser just because he wanted to see the date so he could put it in his album? Or was it someone who bought an old, otherwise "ugly" coin last year and now is trying to "improve" it by some type of chemical or abrasive cloth so he can sell if for a profit? To me there is definitely a difference. I may get some disagrees for that last sentence @Paradisefound
Here is one that I compromised on and bought in the Cleaned holder.
Has a full date, decent detail, no corrosion, and the color is not too bad.
I looked at a number of '04 large cents in the price range I was seeking and this
seemed to represent good value for the price - won at Goldberg auction a few years ago:
We don't know the entire story - how the remarks were made and who else overheard the exchange. Right or wrong, many believe in MYOB when it comes to other dealers.
As a young collector, I was thrown out of a coin shop for informing the owner his coins were cleaned. Thankfully, years later after joining ANACS, I became his friend and teacher.
I’ve owned / own a few cleaned coins and as long as I am getting them at a solid discount, it is one of the “problem” designations I’m willing to compromise for in my persuit of rare (and generally expensive) varieties.
It really depends. Some lightly cleaned coins that have retoned look perfectly acceptable. For early copper, some mild environmental damage may not bother the owner.
Ancient coins are ALL "curated" nee cleaned. The SS America coins were all "curated". No one seems to care that the S-mint gold was cleaned and PCGS doesn't even bother to note it on the holder only indicating implicitly by provenance that it is sea salvage.
Personally, I like coins for their artistry. So if you give me a sharply struck coin with good details and a few surface flaws, I really don't care. Does it bother you that the Mona Lisa had a film over it? Would you burn the Mona Lisa or the Sistine Chapel because they've been "restored"? [Note: Art restoration often means repainting the work of art.] In that context, how the coin looks is far more important than that someone may have "restored" it or that the surface might have microscopic porosity.
IMHO, I don't know that "details" have become more acceptable. They were always acceptable - at a discount.
remove... unless I can find an example of what the hell I was posting about.
Personally, very light cleaning of coins is usually okay with me. To me the bad word "cleaning" really means harsh cleaning. I'll be the first to admit, I am not always 100% sure when a "circulated" coin has been "intentionally" lightly clean VS the normal or natural effect of circulation. Of course harshly cleaned coins are easy to spot and are not desirable IMO.
To me, an original or lightly cleaned coin is a lot more desirable than an equivalent coin that has a dirty or toned look.
I think a big factor is that there have been many successful regrades of once deemed “cleaned” coins by a TPGS. Obviously there are coins that are obviously cleaned (polished, wipe lines, etc), but there are many borderline examples found in “cleaned” holders.
I have successfully cracked out around 5 “cleaned” coins and they have all come back straight graded. A couple were gold pieces in NGC cleaned holders that I bought for melt, that all graded straight MS grades by PCGS. I know others that have had success with many more examples.
This happens everyday, and many make a nice living doing it. So, hence there is a big market for buying better looking "cleaned" coins.
As a collector of early coppers without unlimited funds, I actually seek out cleaned coins. As long as the cleaning isn't harsh (and preferably historic), I don't mind at all - especially since I'm often able to buy the coin for less than I would have otherwise. The coin depicted below is a perfect example. (I posted this same coin in an earlier GTG thread and no one guessed it had been deemed "cleaned".)
Smitten with DBLCs.
I can tell you that after watching Ebay Commem data over the last 2 years, there's almost no market. The same coin is placed back on eBay week after week, till I think they give up>
There's one I keep looking at.
But can't overcome the fear of being "out of step."
getting more love than they once did? For my niche, heck no. Way less love, even for the rare ones. If a coin is not nice for grade, it's getting slammed price wise.
What I'm seeing is "cleaned" coins don't move nearly as fast. That said, I think "market acceptable" has changed some over the years. As far as owning something that has been cleaned... I think it depends on the extent of the cleaning. Is it a wipe, or did someone use 100 grit sandpaper or a dremel tool? The coin in question also comes into play... Walker guy shows an excellent example. 1804 LC is a tough date in the series... his example looks nice in spite of the cleaning. The same could be said for the 1798 as well. I suppose you have to ask yourself what your collecting goals are and how much you want wrapped up in any one coin.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
I got a few lightly cleaned!
I have lately used some cleaned coins to fill my dansco type set. I look for coins where the design and the details are still strong but the price is reasonable (so that I don't have to worry about placing the coin into the album but at the same time I still have a nice enough representation of the type).
There are many types and grades of cleaning when it comes to coins. Abrasive cleaning, where obvious lines jump right out, or whizzing where the entire coin has been 'smoothed', are obvious rejects. Dipping is cleaning, but mostly acceptable, unless over-dipped or etched. Careful work with a rose thorn to remove 'gunk' has generally been accepted and can only be seen if poorly done and not conserved properly. Which brings me to professional conservation, which, it seems, is generally accepted. So, much like grading, learn what cleaning looks like and make your judgement. Cheers, RickO
I was one of those collectors who has been burned on a couple of raw coins...therefore, I only purchase PCGS ensconced coins for my collection.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
so what do you call coins "treated" by certain TPGs?
cleaned? restored? preserved?
where does the term "cleaning" start? soap and water?
Conserved or curated.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
That’s a nice looking 1804!!
Authentication is important for coins and medals that have been 'cleaned' or otherwise tampered with. Beyond that, much depends on the overall appearance of the coin and the personal value it has for a potential buyer.
Let's keep this simple. All cleaning can be described as either mechanical or chemical. Often it is a combination. All cleaning occurs in degrees. Therefore, sticking a coin under a running tap of water is a mild form of chemical cleaning. Rub it with your wet thumb while the water is running is both.
If a coin is cleaned in such a way that it cannot be detected, we say it was cleaned "properly." Just because a 200 year old silver coin is bright does not prove it was cleaned "properly" in the past.
Conservation requires some form of cleaning. Conserving a coin properly does not imply it cannot be detected as a corroded coin can be conserved without leaving any evidence that it was cleaned. Nevertheless it was cleaned.
In order to determine the difference between proper and improper cleaning, you'll need to know what an original coin's surface looks like.
In my primary collection I'd be happy to own a cleaned 1792 half disme or small eagle half dollar. Other issues, not so much.
For my 7070, I'm much more tolerant, as long as the detail is good and the cleaning doesn't detract from eye appeal.
RE: "If a coin is cleaned in such a way that it cannot be detected, we say it was cleaned 'properly.' "
Uh, nope. If the "cleaning" cannot be detected we presume it was not "cleaned."
If you send a coin in to PCGS for restoration and they do so and then grade and place it in a holder, was it cleaned or not?
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
If a tree falls on it, it's bent...
You'll have to check with your barber.
As I posted previously: "If a coin is cleaned in such a way that it cannot be detected, we say it was cleaned 'properly."
@RogerB replied: "Uh, nope. If the "cleaning" cannot be detected we presume it was not "cleaned."
Whatever.
When I clean a coin and you and no one else can detect it, We (my friends and I who do who clean coins) say it was cleaned properly."
Our aim is to get folks not involved to presume it is still a virgin coin. That's why folks pay a fee for conservation at some TPGS.
@SiriusBlack asked: "If you send a coin in to PCGS for restoration and they do so and then grade and place it in a holder, was it cleaned or not?"
Try and answer your own question based on clues in this thread. We are all here to help after you give it a try.
I would say yes it was technically cleaned, but probably a better term is conserved. Cleaned in a responsible manner to eliminate problems that could be damaging to a coin, ie verdigris or PVC.
I guess most everyone would agree on removing verdigris or PVC to prevent further damage. Can the coin then become graded as damaged because of the damage that was unearthed after removal? I assume PCGS or whoever is doing the restoration can't answer the damage question until they do the restoration and remove the foreign contaminates and see what is underneath.
What if the coin is just dirty and grimy through 100 years of peoples pockets and dirty desk drawers? It's not really damaged, it just needs a car wash. Is it then considered cleaning to remove gunk and funk that has accumulated over the century?
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
Ahhhh...then if the result was undetectable, it was invisible and could not be detected even if detected but it wasn't. Or do you mean:
"PLANS FOR CLEANER PAPER CURRENCY"
"The subject of clean money has been actively discussed recently and a number of occurrences justify the belief that in the near future the people will be better served in the matter of having notes in use that they need not be afraid of as disseminators of germs. At the meeting of the Executive Council of the American Bankers' Association held in May, a committee was appointed to take up this subject with the Treasury officials.
The committee met in Washington on June 17th and had an extended conference with Secretary MacVeagh and assistant secretary Andrew on the 18th, at which these questions were discussed, and particularly those bearing upon the supply of clean money.
On the same day the newspapers printed a statement showing that the experiments made by the Treasury with the process of cleaning and pressing soiled notes, had proved eminently successful. This process obviously increases the supply of clean money at the disposition of the Treasury, thus making it easier to meet the growing demands of the people."
[The Banking Law Journal, January-December 1910. p.582.]
@RogerB posted: "PLANS FOR CLEANER PAPER CURRENCY"
I'm wise to you! I was waiting to see the date this was written.
Conserving paper is a whole other animal. Too bad we don't have a paper money forum to share our methods.
Treasury also tested a coin washer but there was too much abrasion and too little utility.
I like to buy "details" coins that I feel are borderline. This R5 bust half (O.145) was condemned by PCGS but subsequently graded XF45 problem-free.
Another body-bagged bust half now in an AU55 holder.
Lance.
I have a '21 Peace Dollar that I personally dipped. It was in an NGC 64 holder when I bought it. After said dip, it got into a PCGS 65 holder, then received a CAC green bean. Two grading services couldn't tell. If I had placed a note in the package telling them what had been done to the coin, would it have made a difference?
No. Some forms of cleaning are considered "market acceptable" such as dipping if it's not excessive.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I'm one of those people, but it hasn't burnt me recently; in my case, these are coins I bought decades ago, long before there was much in the way of TPG's around. I have been very humbled recently in my ability to detect cleaned coins that are not too obvious - in the past 2 months I have submitted coins to a non-PCGS TPG, and both times I suspected that one coin in my batch might come back "Details - cleaned", only to find out to my delight that they didn't go Details, and instead another coin in the batch was graded cleaned and I never suspected it at all! Big surprises both times, so I repeat that I have been humbled.
Sometimes I miss a cleaning on a slq. I sell them at auction on eBay in the unc details holder and they do ok. They aren’t harshly cleaned and still look presentable.
Not from me
Here is one PCGS condemned to Death as cleaned!
XF detail (92)
Bottom line is grading is subjective and whether some coins deserve a Net details grade is a matter of opinion. Some opinions are better than others and perhaps collectors need to have a better understanding of the surviving population in terms of condition as to various grades. And in that there is a subset of great coins, marginal coins and coins that just don't pass the straight face test. Collectors need to see, understand and appreciate the differences. This involves work and not just relying on what is being spoon fed to them.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
As for the 1921 Peace Dollar referenced earlier in this thread that was graded 64 by NGC and later graded 65 by PCGS represents this subjective component
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
"Eye appeal" is in the eye of the beholder. So if a cleaned coin managed to retain some attractiveness to your eye, then why not buy it? It is also true what others have said that it could end up being graded again some day.
I've seen coins that were in details holders that were cleaned but they looked A-OK to me. I haven't bought one yet but I wouldn't rule it out. I did buy an "Altered Color" coin because it was so cheap and actually fun to gawk at. It was also a harder date so I thought, "Why not?"
A person should always buy what pleases them. After all, it is "your" collection.