Still Having Problems with PCGS Variety Attributions ! UPDATED 9/05/18

georgiacop50

No doubt some of you may remember this thread: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/998765/what-is-wrong-at-the-pcgs-variety-attribution-clubhouse-updated-resubmission-results-7-31-18/p1

wherein the President of PCGS, Don Willis, stated that some changes had been made to the Variety Attribution process that hopefully would improve the dismal situation there.

Well, Mr.Willis, if my recent submission is any indication, things have not only not improved, they have deteriorated even further.

This time, I sent four 1961-D Washington quarters that were CLEARLY repunched mintmarks FS-501. PCGS did not attribute even a single coin this time!

Some of you no doubt (this means YOU Insider2) are saying to yourselves, " Well how do we know Georgiacop50 is correct? Maybe he is the mistaken party and they are not really the FS variety"

Impossible.

First of all this variety has unique markers that are present on every 1961-D/D FS-501 known.

Secondly, PCGS has previously graded only 5 mint state examples of this variety. Yours truly made 4 of that 5.

Thirdly, all four coins are a perfect match to every published reference I can find, including those coins imaged on CoinFacts.

Getting ones coins properly attributed should NOT be that hard!!

Gluggo

While I understand your frustration with PCGS. I really do I myself had bad results but the quality of coins I am sure are not the quality of your coin's. I come to the realization its better for me to buy the coins already slabbed. That means I have given in to the Big Corporate Companies that get their coins graded from PCGS. Maybe it because your not a big corporate account or maybe PCGS is just harder grading than say NGC. But good luck with your venture, I still have 4 free grades to use up and many coin's waiting on the wing to eventually grade. Just need to save the money to send in, Some will go to NGC but most to PCGS. Why I still think they command the better resale value. But really good luck I feel for you I have felt your pain.

georgiacop50

This is not about GRADES Gluggo. It is about paying so called experts for a service and then not receiving that service. Over and over again.

Insider2

@georgiacop50 said: "No doubt some of you may remember this thread:

[https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/998765/what-is-wrong-at-the-pcgs-variety-attribution-clubhouse-updated-resubmission-results-7-31-18/p1](

Some of you no doubt (this means YOU Insider2) are saying to yourselves, " Well how do we know Georgiacop50 is correct? Maybe he is the mistaken party and they are not really the FS variety"

I just don't get it. Is it the smoke from the wildfires? Or the "recreational" smoke?? Getting ones coins properly attributed should NOT be that hard!!

Unfortunately, you better give up your attempt at mindreading because it was a BiG FAIL!

I've Already posted my opinion in the link. For this submission, did you pay for the attribution?

Now here is what I was REALLY thinking. YOU are an extremrly lucky guy to be allowed to air your dirty laundry out in public with another complaint about a TPGS error. As I wrote before, I'd put Jay's (PCGS) ability to attribute coins up against yours anytime and you already proved in the link that you are a pretty good "Cherrypicker."

I don't know the inner workings at PCGS. I do know that just as the last time, you are approaching this problem ALL WRONG. Apparently, the graders don't see the requested variety when they examine a coin. If so, this is a MAJOR FLAW at that service and needs to be fixed! I've already wrote about another thing that needs to be fixed..."

Good Luck

georgiacop50

Of course I paid attribution fees.

So if you took your Lamborghini to a repair shop and they said " We are the best repair shop in the world", and then you discovered they had not fixed your car at all but merely taken your money. Yet you gave them another chance to fix it. In fact, you gave them SEVERAL chances to fix it, but each time they failed.

So you contacted the shop owner and he said, "Bring it back in. We have a new mechanic and he will fix your car."

So you reluctantly took it back in and still they did not fix it. Only on the third visit was your car fixed properly.

A month later you took your Bugatti to the same shop and lo and behold they could not fix it either, even though it was a simple straightforward repair. But you paid them anyway, because that is the law. Otherwise you could be charged with theft of services.

And the shop owner when contacted never found time to explain why the repair went haywire and never offered to refund your money.

You wouldn't warn your fellow rare car afficionadoes that something was amiss at that particular repair shop?

BG

It is very frustrating when things don't go as planned. Especially if it's 30+ days of waiting.

Blasting PCGS here is not the answer.

PCGS should pay all costs associated with getting things done correctly.

I used to do World Coin Type/Varieties at David Lawrence. Not an easy task.

georgiacop50

Apparently, the graders don't see the requested variety when they examine a coin.

I don't believe that is the case. Logic dictates that they DO see the requested variety

@BG said:
Blasting PCGS here is not the answer.

I am not blasting PCGS. I think they do a splendid job at grading coins. But if they can not consistently offer accurate variety attributions, then they should not be offering the service.

cameonut2011

Wow! Just wow.

RogerB

Do any of the posters understand the present process?
Are there suggestions for how the attribution process might be improved?

davewesen

@georgiacop50 said:
Of course I paid attribution fees.

they used to only charge half for non varieties

leothelyon

Sounds like a lack of ability by the employees there to comprehend what's been filled out on the submission form. When one part of the system fails to communicate properly with the other, problems and complaints follow. But keep your receipts and once you get the proper labels, you should be able to get a refund......I mean, how much should it cost to get 4 coins attributed? One submission for 4 coins. If it's gone beyond that, they have a lot of explaining to do.

georgiacop50

I sent the 4 quarters back under Don Willis' "free review" offer and they were logged into MY ACCOUNT as having been received 8/29.

24 hours later the grades posted! (Make what you will of that kind of Turnaround time) and nothing changed. The variety crew once again failed to attribute a single coin even though they are all a perfect match to every single published reference for the variety AND are a perfect match to the coins in CoinFacts.

So what do you think my next step should be?

RadioContestKing

Time to send them to James Wiles or JT Stanton and than get a letter from them and than send them back one more time with the letter of course and you might get lucky. This is what I had to do and of course send one of the original coins with those 4 so they can compare.

This has worked for me and it only took 10 months to get the coin in a holder. I passed on the 61 d at GC because I know sooner or later you are going to find a better one and I guess I can wait 6 or 7 months....

Good luck...

cmerlo1

One of the parties here is wrong. The coin either has the diagnostics and matches the photo and description in the reference exactly or it isn't the variety. With VarietyVista and the CPG available, I would think this shouldn't be too difficult.

georgiacop50

I just tried to have them intercepted but to no avail. I got grades posted notification at 2:05 and shipped notification at 2:30!!!

I called Customer Service 20 minutes later and was told the security guard "just left the building with them".

On a positive note CS rep NICK was genuinely concerned about this (in contrast with some of the other unnamed CS reps) and is looking into it and has promised a call back this afternoon and even stated, " We WILL get this resolved for you."

That was a very refreshing change from the apathy I have met before in these situations.

oih82w8

I hate that when "the package just left the building"...no matter what time of day it is.

I wonder if the variety attribution staff has the memo that @DonWillis referenced to in the original thread with these same ongoing issues?

There must be some form of notice since these pieces were expeditiously processed with such a quick turnaround time.

Kkathyl

Sometime you need to draw pictures or make calls. Sorry to hear of your troubles. How much more does it cost to get attributes listed on the label?

oih82w8

@Kkathyl said:
How much more does it cost to get attributes listed on the label?

$18 plus additional fees.

What does the service cost?
The cost is $18 added to the level of service utilized. For example, if you chose a Regular service level ($32/coin) plus variety attribution, your grading fees would come to $50. Crossover submissions are acceptable. Show Service is not available. To add a variety to an already graded PCGS coin, the cost is $18 plus the corresponding reholder fee if the customer is not requesting a grading service level. The same fees apply to dealers adding this service to their orders.

https://www.pcgs.com/varietyfaq

Timbuk3

Good luck !!!

Kkathyl

Might be the paper process. I’m mean seriously.

georgiacop50

@oih82w8 said:

There must be some form of notice …

I think so too, especially because when I dropped off coins at the PCGS table at a show with NO Payment info and a print out screen shot of the original thread it raised no eyebrows.

FredWeinberg

I feel your pain, and can't explain
what happened, or didn't happen.

My suggestion, which is a duplication
of effort, after paying the additional
Variety Fee, etc., is to put "RPM FS-501"
ON the actual submission flip itself -
either with a sticker, or a Permanent Marker.

It might be that without seeing the submission
forms, the graders/authenticators are not
aware that it should be a Variety call.

Not saying this is the case, or that if so,
it's simply additional info on the flip that
(hopefully) won't be missed by them.

Insider2

@georgiacop50 said:
Of course I paid attribution fees.

So if you took your Lamborghini to a repair shop and they said " We are the best repair shop in the world", and then you discovered they had not fixed your car at all but merely taken your money. Yet you gave them another chance to fix it. In fact, you gave them SEVERAL chances to fix it, but each time they failed.

So you contacted the shop owner and he said, "Bring it back in. We have a new mechanic and he will fix your car."

So you reluctantly took it back in and still they did not fix it. Only on the third visit was your car fixed properly.

A month later you took your Bugatti to the same shop and lo and behold they could not fix it either, even though it was a simple straightforward repair. But you paid them anyway, because that is the law. Otherwise you could be charged with theft of services.

And the shop owner when contacted never found time to explain why the repair went haywire and never offered to refund your money.

You wouldn't warn your fellow rare car afficionadoes that something was amiss at that particular repair shop?

ABSOLUTELY, I would tell all my friends. The difference is I'm not the **insane auto collector doing the same thing OVER & OVER while getting the same POOR results!** Additionally, I would have more class than to stand in front of the dealership yelling "foul" and filling the dealer's company web site with complaints - JUSTIFIED OR NOT!

Additionally, I'd be really worried that the next I was insane enough to bring them a car again that they might pour sugar into the gas tank!

PS In my experience, some real nasty trolls have done some really hilarious things (over and over) to folks in order to "lose" the aggravation of dealing with them. You see, some folks are not important enough to the bottom $$$$$$ line to keep around.

I hope things work out for you - honest!

Now, since you asked: What I suggest you do the next time - after our host fixes this if they are in error is:

1. Send your "obscure-variety" to a different TPGS. You'll probably be very pleased with the results as you can write on the form: "Please call me if you do not agree with my attribution before you return tis coin."
2. When it comes back with the correct attribution, CROSS IT OVER.
3. If you have any more complaints, it may be better to share them with all your friends IN A PM!

oih82w8

Would the graders/attributors actually see these "notes", or do they get "round filed" at the reception area? I highly doubt that the graders/variety attributors see the supporting documentation/notes that accompany the coins. I have been wrong before.

giantsfan20

To OP can you post pictures of coin in question.

Hard to place blame without seeing what exactly is the concern and who is to blame or not?

georgiacop50

@FredWeinberg said:
My suggestion, which is a duplication
of effort, after paying the additional
Variety Fee, etc., is to put "RPM FS-501"
ON the actual submission flip itself -
either with a sticker, or a Permanent Marker.

It might be that without seeing the submission
forms, the graders/authenticators are not
aware that it should be a Variety call.

Not saying this is the case, or that if so,
it's simply additional info on the flip that
(hopefully) won't be missed by them.

I have a very strong hunch that in such a case the sticker would be removed or the coin transferred to a "clean" flip by someone in receiving before being sent to the grading room.

georgiacop50

@oih82w8 said:
Would the graders/attributors actually see these "notes", or do they get "round filed" at the reception area? I highly doubt that the graders/variety attributors see the supporting documentation/notes that accompany the coins. I have been wrong before.

I was told by CS rep that if a submitter sends documentation with an order, that document DOES accompany the coin into the grading room. Of course, unfortunately, CS reps occasionally give out incorrect info...

Insider2

@georgiacop50 said:
I sent the 4 quarters back under Don Willis' "free review" offer and they were logged into MY ACCOUNT as having been received 8/29.

24 hours later the grades posted! (Make what you will of that kind of Turnaround time) and nothing changed. The variety crew once again failed to attribute a single coin even though they are all a perfect match to every single published reference for the variety AND are a perfect match to the coins in CoinFacts.

So what do you think my next step should be?

If I were in your shoes I would call Mr. Willis again, tell him you love the grades and ask if he would make an exception and show the graders your notes.

IMO, this is a case of not wishing to bother with anything that is not a major variety. As late as 1990, I know for a fact that this was the case except at the second and third tier services. The top two were dragged kicking and screaming to adopt many things the other services had been doing for years..

PS Somewhere in one of your discussions we were told that the graders are not shown any of the paperwork associated with the coins.

Insider2

@1tommy said:
Time to send them to James Wiles or JT Stanton and than get a letter from them and than send them back one more time with the letter of course and you might get lucky. This is what I had to do and of course send one of the original coins with those 4 so they can compare.

This has worked for me and it only took 10 months to get the coin in a holder. I passed on the 61 d at GC because I know sooner or later you are going to find a better one and I guess I can wait 6 or 7 months....

Good luck...

10 months! So sorry to read this.

georgiacop50

@Insider2 said:

PS In my experience, some real nasty trolls have done some really hilarious things (over and over) to folks in order to "lose" the aggravation of dealing with them. You see, some folks are not important enough to the bottom $$$$$$ line to keep around.

If I didn't know better I would think that you are implying that, possibly, one or more people at PCGS are purposefully screwing around with my orders.

Talk about pushing the envelope!!

@Thor11 said:
It looks like you can not win this battle , especially with other members stabbing you in the back while you try to bring this problem to a head

Yes. I know exactly what you mean Thor.

It baffles me that several people keep suggesting that I am just a complainer dissatisfied with grades when the truth of the matter is PCGS has a problem that is very likely not going to get fixed unless people voice their frustration with the process.

TommyType

Regarding paperwork, and whether it is seen:

I submitted an 1865 2-cent. Most of them get the "generic" coin number 3582 for "1865 2-cent".

I specifically wanted the attribution of "Plain 5", and coin number 38247, for registry purposes. I WROTE THAT ON THE FORM. It came back exactly that.

So, since the generic default would have been by far the easiest thing for them to use, I have to assume that it was read by the grader, or finalizer, or someone in the process.

Insider2

@georgiacop50 said:

@Insider2 said:

PS In my experience, some real nasty trolls have done some really hilarious things (over and over) to folks in order to "lose" the aggravation of dealing with them. You see, some folks are not important enough to the bottom $$$$$$ line to keep around.

If I didn't know better I would think that you are implying that, possibly, one or more people at PCGS are purposefully screwing around with my orders.

Talk about pushing the envelope!

Not at all. PCGS is considered by many folks to be the #1 TPGS. I've never worked at PCGS and would NEVER accuse them or any major service of any such thing. I should be shocked if any professional grader at a major TPGS would do anything to hurt business. However, I know of some very humorous things that have been done to collectors. Perhaps, it is just the alcohol talking while trying to one-up the pranks.

For example, have you ever played phone tag, been placed on hold, transferred to several departments, had your coins held for several months, received a no decision, etc. Heck, I could go on and on. I just thought of some more possibilities. Have you had your check lost, had your coin misplaced for a while. had your coins put to the back of the line each day for several days, been informed they don't recognize the variety, etc. This would make a fun discussion: "How would you remove a squeaky wheel." LOL.

Consider yourself lucky not to be dealing with more than a week or two turnaround times and the fact that the TPGS is bending over backward to rectify the situation.

As I wrote before, I don't think the PCGS graders see your attributions! Therefore, a grader who is not "into" minor doubled dies may breeze right past one.

PS Today I'm a real sweetheart with all our customers. Just this Monday one of them sent the company manager a wonderful email about me. I'd love to post it so none of the new members think I'm **stabbing** you in the back. Nevertheless, for the sake of 100% honesty, in my younger days (many decades ago) I could be a real nightmare.

DIMEMAN

I can sorta see the messing up on DDO's and DDR's that are minute in detail. But the should always get RPM's correct.

lkeigwin

I struggled getting an 1892/7 O.102a bust half properly attributed. Very frustrating.

I finally took it to a show and got Sheridan Downey and Don Willis together. Don asked Sheridan to write an email explaining the die characteristics and endorsing it as a 102a. He did. Don took it back to HQ and a couple of weeks later it showed up correctly attributed.

To be fair, PCGS has only attributed four of these, counting mine. My point, however, is that the suggestion by @1tommy is a good one, if a little extreme. I agree it should not be necessary.
Lance.

Insider2

@DIMEMAN said:
I can sorta see the messing up on DDO's and DDR's that are minute in detail. But the should always get RPM's correct.

I disagree. Unless you are looking for the stuff or if the if RPM is big...

That's why I'm usually first on the box with my trusty Nikon finding stuff the submitter never knew they had. Found an 1861-O WB-103 (CSA Issue) 50c in AU/Unc to die for this morning!

lkeigwin

@georgiacop50 said:
Of course I paid attribution fees.

So if you took your Lamborghini to a repair shop and they said " We are the best repair shop in the world", and then you discovered they had not fixed your car at all but merely taken your money. Yet you gave them another chance to fix it. In fact, you gave them SEVERAL chances to fix it, but each time they failed.

So you contacted the shop owner and he said, "Bring it back in. We have a new mechanic and he will fix your car."

So you reluctantly took it back in and still they did not fix it. Only on the third visit was your car fixed properly.

A month later you took your Bugatti to the same shop and lo and behold they could not fix it either, even though it was a simple straightforward repair. But you paid them anyway, because that is the law. Otherwise you could be charged with theft of services.

And the shop owner when contacted never found time to explain why the repair went haywire and never offered to refund your money.

You wouldn't warn your fellow rare car afficionadoes that something was amiss at that particular repair shop?

This is why I own reliable Porsches.
Lance.

DIMEMAN

@Insider2 said:

@DIMEMAN said:
I can sorta see the messing up on DDO's and DDR's that are minute in detail. But the should always get RPM's correct.

I disagree. Unless you are looking for the stuff or if the if RPM is big...

That's why I'm usually first on the box with my trusty Nikon finding stuff the submitter never knew they had. Found an 1861-O WB-103 (CSA Issue) 50c in AU/Unc to die for this morning!

That is AWESOME!! I sure could use that for my variety type set!

Insider2

Of course it is the 1846-D $5.

WaterSport

If I understood you correctly you got 4 free vouchers per Don Willis because of the last submission screw up , Correct?

So you used these vouchers and I bet they simply got straight graded and no variety review even though you added the extra $18, and noted this on the submission form.

Obviously, you need to go back to Mr. Willis one more time so he can hand carry your submission.

WS

ricko

I have never had any issue like this... of course I do not submit varieties... well, maybe I have, but did not know it... Cheers, RickO

FredWeinberg

As far as I know, stickers and writing on the
actual submission flips are not removed,
or the coins placed in new, unmarked flips.

georgiacop50

@FredWeinberg said:
As far as I know, stickers and writing on the
actual submission flips are not removed,
or the coins placed in new, unmarked flips.

I just can't believe that is true. TOO great potential for abuse ! ?

( "OK grader X, keep your eyes open! Any time you see a coin come in with a star shaped green sticker and has had the flip written on with a brown sharpie... those are MY coins! Grade them appropriately!)

See what I am saying?

Insider2

@georgiacop50 said:

@FredWeinberg said:
As far as I know, stickers and writing on the
actual submission flips are not removed,
or the coins placed in new, unmarked flips.

I just can't believe that is true. TOO great potential for abuse ! ?

( "OK grader X, keep your eyes open! Any time you see a coin come in with a star shaped green sticker and has had the flip written on with a brown sharpie... those are MY coins! Grade them appropriately!)

See what I am saying?

We were discussing this thread in the grading room today.

IMHO, it should make absolutely no difference who owns the coins to a professional grader. All should be treated equally. Until I started grading for NGC in 1998, I knew the ID of every person who's coins I was grading. I saw values, notes to the grader, any requested variety he was aware of - everything. That allowed me to regularity call customers (without slowing the order down dealing w/customer service) to educate them or request to clean their coin so I could grade it higher. Therefore, I'm in favor of this approach.

That said, human nature being what it is, we can see your point. Some jerks may downgrade a particular submitter and others may be more "forgiving" to another customer.

Grading is subjective. Want to have some fun? Put ten coins out at a coin club on month. Let the folks grade them on a sheet of paper without telling them what you are doing. Collect the answers (avoids cheating). Two months later, have them grad the same coins. Liners and circulated coins are the best to use.

In my experience, while doing QC after the coins are slabbed, there have been cases where I didn't agree with the grade assigned. When I looked up the opinions, in some cases (I was first on the box) I graded the coin the same way it was slabbed. Anyway, these are the coins that are discussed further before being returned. Nothing is set in stone (authentication/grading) until the coin leaves the building.

Additionally, I know for a fact that on occasion, some "liner" coins are pushed to the next grade. It is called "giving them a bone." Nevertheless, remember that the TPGS stands behind their assigned grade.

Anyone working for a decade at a TPGS has probably figured out who the important customers are. Therefore a code# on a box means NOTHING!

IMO, if you wrote the variety on your flip, it would solve much of the problems you have encountered. I cannot understand why any collector or grading service would not welcome this.

Additionally, it is good for business to grade everyone's coins as high as you can w/o giving "stupid" grades out. That way everyone would be happy.

Apparently, you are a very advanced collector. I've seen some of the "micro" stuff you collect in another discussion. Perhaps that is the reason that I have never heard of anyone encountering so many problems with attributions by a TPGS. Keep stating your case in a calm and nice manner and it should all work out. Once the coins are slabbed properly and added to your collection, I'm hopeful these difficulties you are having now will be long forgotten.

Insider2

@lkeigwin said: "This is why I own reliable Porsches."

Ditto, I just cannot afford to drive one for my daily commute.

DCW

I once submitted some varieties, and my 1980 Lincoln cent DDO posted without the attribution. It just listed the grade, MS65RD. But, when the package arrived it was correctly attributed on the label.
Are you sure that this hasn't happened here?
Maybe your coins will show up with variety attribution, and it was just the data that was incorrectly posted on your submission page.

DIMEMAN

@DCW said:
I once submitted some varieties, and my 1980 Lincoln cent DDO posted without the attribution. It just listed the grade, MS65RD. But, when the package arrived it was correctly attributed on the label.
Are you sure that this hasn't happened here?
Maybe your coins will show up with variety attribution, and it was just the data that was incorrectly posted on your submission page.

Very Very Unlikely!

DCW

@DIMEMAN said:

@DCW said:
I once submitted some varieties, and my 1980 Lincoln cent DDO posted without the attribution. It just listed the grade, MS65RD. But, when the package arrived it was correctly attributed on the label.
Are you sure that this hasn't happened here?
Maybe your coins will show up with variety attribution, and it was just the data that was incorrectly posted on your submission page.

Very Very Unlikely!

But, yet I just told you it has happened to me.

DIMEMAN

@DCW said:

@DIMEMAN said:

@DCW said:
I once submitted some varieties, and my 1980 Lincoln cent DDO posted without the attribution. It just listed the grade, MS65RD. But, when the package arrived it was correctly attributed on the label.
Are you sure that this hasn't happened here?
Maybe your coins will show up with variety attribution, and it was just the data that was incorrectly posted on your submission page.

Very Very Unlikely!

But, yet I just told you it has happened to me.

It's just that I have done hundreds of varieties and have never had that happen to me......not disputing you at all.

ms70

For crying out loud you'd think after all this PCGS would get you on the phone BEFORE re-slabbing the coins and actually speak with you about this.

Cameonut

This sounds pretty bad, but I recognize we are only getting one side of the story. I miss Paul Harvey for the "rest of the story".

Where I used to work, if a controversial job came back on a "presidential order", the job would be triple checked and may even be reviewed by the president herself. Our mantra was that one dissatisfied customer would tell 100 others of their negative experience. This outweighed the occasional "atta boy/girl" by more than a factor of ten as satisfied customers are not nearly as vocal. These days with the advent of message boards and the carpy social media, I think the spread of good/bad has widened significantly.

If I were PCGS, I would get this submission in hand and double check it AGAIN. If it is not the variety, explain. If it is, put the coins in the proper holder with a short note of explanation an apology. Tossing in a few grading vouchers would be a great gesture.

Customer service is #1 these days, unless you want cheap junk from overseas with no support.