Original Morgan Silver Dollar Rolls.
Oneputt82cc
Posts: 13 ✭
Looking for a little help. Is $1550 a good price for an original roll with cc's on the ends? Would appreciate any feedback.
Thanks from The Golf Pro.
5
Comments
Listen to the advice you will find in the responses here very carefully.
--Severian the Lame
In this case CC probably stands for cheatin crook. PASS!
PASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
no thanks
Salting "unopened rolls" with a CC coin or some other bait is one of the oldest tricks around.
There is no such thing as an "original Morgan Dollar roll." Morgan Dollars left the mint in bags, not rolls.
There is good chance that a "mystery roll” could have counterfeits in the middle these days. Counterfiet Morgan Dollars are as thick as fleas.
If you think that there might be any more CC in that roll, think again. There are 20 silver dollars in a roll which puts you per coin price at $77.50. The lowest price for a CC dollar on the Gray Sheet at the lowest grade, VG, is $108. Unless you believe in the tooth fairy, what seems to be too good to be true almost always is.
@Oneputt82cc....Welcome aboard... Read the above responses very carefully... It is not a good deal... and you will be disappointed and lose money. Cheers, RickO
Just flush your money down the toilet. It will at least save you paying postage
There may still be some unsearched rolls of uncirculated Morgans out there. Lots were out there in the 1970s as a result of the huge Treasury Dept. sales, I bought several of them back in the day. However, as stated above, there is no such thing as an original roll of Morgan Dollars. They all left the mint in $1,000 bags.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
The generally accepted term "original roll" relates to bank-wrapped rolls. These were regularly (without any discrimination or care) distributed from the "original bag" delivered to the bank from a more central bank that was higher up in the Treasury's distribution chain. The coins in the Treasury sales were still in their original bags and never saw a commercial bank vault. That doesn't mean than unpicked rolls from original bags wouldn't be available in tubes, but in 2018 the survival odds are infinitesimal.
The recent thread on the 16 bag New York Hoard of very common date dollars contained grade distributions that indicate what we'd expect, the vast majority cluster around 63+ with a very low percentage of outliers at either end of that spectrum. Having watched the very talented and extremely market-savvy Jeff Garrett for decades, including being "in the room" when he bought roughly 7 bags of original 1922P and 1923P dollars at a Christie's sale (maybe 2001), An oft-agreed surmise of that thread will be that they will end up in bulk-graded special label promotions. Individual coins and discounts for larger orders, but not in tubes and unslabbed.
You can't melt a lottery ticket, but I still like the odds better. @BillJones' previous response to the thread mirrors my own conclusion and includes the many advantages to be gained by fraud misrepresentation and its imposingly-high statistical prevalence. I'd rate the NFW (no effin' way) factor at 99+%.
THIS: "The generally accepted term "original roll" relates to bank-wrapped rolls." saved me from posting about this often used "bag" nonsense! I've opened at least fifty (proving I'm a real rookie) ORIGINAL bank wrapped rolls (with bank name and original crimp) over the years. The best was a roll of CC dollars, one was a roll of 1924 $20, one was a roll of 1930 5c, and one was a half roll of 1942/1 dimes still with the remaining bank paper.
It's not exactly nonsense if I understand you. Banks rolled coins from bags, but those don't have to all be from an original unc bag. You could have a mix inside, even if it's not a scam.
These rolls on eBay are complete scams. The seller puts CC’s on the edges and usually fills the middle with cull or common date Morgans. Stay FAR away from these rolls!
would you sell a roll with possible scarce date coins, or would you open it? I'd open it first.
what the ebay people are doing is a trick.
besides CC meaning cheatin crook, it will also mean common coins.
If you buy 5 or so BU 82,83,84 CC’s or GSA’s and 15 MS62-MS63 Common date Morgan’s you will essentially have the same perceived thing, it will actually be better, because you will actually have them and it won’t be a mirage on eBay.
But sometimes we have to touch the stove top to find out ourselves that it is actually hot. Cheers!
Original Morgan Silver Dollar Wrapper (Maybe)
My Guy Feeling For These Types Of Listings....
SURE the roll may be Original.
The Morgan Silver Dollars on the other hand were searched and the CC on the end IS BAIT.
Why would someone sell original cc’s without looking at them.
“My name is Prince Nasir from Nairobi I need some assist to move my fortune to the United States. Could you pass me your SSN and bank account number to help me facilitate a transfer?”
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
My oldest thought there was a Tooth Fairy until he was eight. The six-year old got wised up very soon after. They waited until the soon-to-be-born youngest was five before they momentarily ruined her life by outing her Mom and I, but she still played the game and so did the parental units.
Let me tell you how it was when I was starting out in the early 70's. You want the Santa Claus story or the Sanity Clause version?
OTOH, actual groups of coins that went from the bank to the SDB are still occasionally found. I am slightly more accepting of their existence than that of unicorns. If you want to combine ignorance with naivete and advise people that it might not be a scam, you're right. Consider your exceptionally low probability quibble to intellectual rigor as counter-productive in terms of practical advise
I searched 30 bags of common S-mint $1 for George Weingart as he helped Ed Milas very quietly disperse over 200 bags. I'd imagine John Love played a bigger role than George. Can't remember which side of the 1982 bottom. So I've seen toned coins others here say didn't/couldn't exist. Proving what? Just that I paid full tuition and I'd like some others to get it for less.
Want to know how to make a score on "original rolls". Selling them. Buying them? My advice is to sell bumper stickers that say "I Brake for Unicorns" instead
Commercial banks often put silver dollars into paper rolls of 20 coins. This made it easier for tellers to handle the coins. This seems to have largely begun in the 1930s with small banks and became "normal" in banks my family owned (or were stockholders in) in the 1950s and early 60s. It stopped when the flow of silver dollars ended in 1964. As a kid I was allowed to search for dollars for my collection whenever the local bank got in a new bag or two. But, once the coins had been rolled, there was no searching allowed - I had to buy the full roll and agree not to return it to the same bank. (Often I stacked dollars after searching, then a teller would verify my count and roll them by hand. Small banks did not have mechanical rolling equipment - too expensive.)
"Run, Forrest, Run!"
Banks may have received vintage bags of dollars, and rolled them in paper wraps. This would have been done after the machines became available to do this in the late teens, or more likely after distribution in rolls became popular in the early 30's. I've debated whether rolls not wrapped around the time of issue could be called "OBW", but for all intents and purposes of numismatists today, I would guess "OBW" is fitting. This type of non-contemporaneous OBW roll would likely be at least 50 years old.
So I guess the question is whether the seller has somehow come upon a magical hoard of OBW rolls which have been socked away for at least the last 50 years, and is making such magical hoard available to the eBay community. Personally I don't believe in such magic, but there are quite a lot of folks on eBay who do, and support these sellers.
http://macrocoins.com
Treasury records show that most dollars sat in vaults or were shipped about the country within the Treasury and FRB system until the growth of casino gambling following WW-II.
There are also early journals showing the movement of silver dollars from Dec 1878 to June 1891:
PS: If anyone out there has a genuine interest/need in the full series of 12 volumes, please let me know. I can add it to my schedule.
Hmm, the list of banks reads like a nearly complete list of FRBs, even though this was 1891. I had not thought about it, but it makes sense that the big regional/national banks likely ended up becoming the branches of the FRB.
http://macrocoins.com
It does not matter one bit what/where/or when some freshly minted coins of any kind were put into a roll at a bank. A bag may have stayed in a vault for months. The first time these coins were sealed into a roll, they are considered to be original by any numismatist I ever knew. Who knows what the new-comers to our hobby have heard/read due to silliness!
So if a member wishes to find some meaningless "WHAT-IF" silly possibility in another member's post
for EDITED whatever the reason, all the better! Go for it.
It is certainly possible that an original bank wrapped roll of coins can have more than one date inside. IMO, it would be a rare find! I'll bet out of the thousands of members on CU, some may have had that experience. I have not .
The page is from Dec 1878.
Yep, most of the Sub-Treasuries became FRB's in 1913. Cities were not prepare to lose status.
It sounds like you are advocating allowing ANY late-wrapping to still be called OBW. So let's say that I have a sealed mint $50 bag of 1955-S Cents (many still exist), and I give it to a local bank (let's say Rabobank, which has only operated in the US since 2007) to be wrapped. They give me back 100 Rabobank-marked rolls of coin, in plastic shrink-wrap. Are those rolls OBW? Do you think folks on the internet or ebay would accept them as OBW? They indeed might be considered "original" since they came from a sealed mint bag, but being wrapped with a different technology than existed at the time of issue, and by a bank which did not exist in 1955, it might be a tough sell. And of course this is exactly the silly what-if as you mentioned, but I feel it's important to be clear on what constitutes a true OBW roll, and in general contemporaneous wrapping by a bank (or other agency in their name) is a criteria I personally can't compromise on.
http://macrocoins.com
Joe Schmoe goes to his bank, opens a bank box and pulls out some Morgan dollars - mostly scruffy Fine-VF stuff - plus one AU common CC he bought from somebody's Granny for $2, and an 1879 low-end Unc. He puts the 1879 dollar with obverse facing out at one end of a crimped paper dollar wrapper, then adds 18 more of the scruffy coins, and finally the common CC with the reverse visible. He completes crimping the roll.
Taking the wrapped roll of 20 silver dollars, he leaves the bank, having completed wrapping them in the bank, and head to is ebay account where he hopes to find suckers galore and sheep waiting the be sheared.
Is this an "OBW" roll of Morgan dollars?
@rmpsrpms said: It sounds like you are advocating allowing ANY late-wrapping to still be called OBW. So let's say that I have a sealed mint $50 bag of 1955-S Cents (many still exist), and I give it to a local bank (let's say Rabobank, which has only operated in the US since 2007) to be wrapped. They give me back 100 Rabobank-marked rolls of coin, in plastic shrink-wrap. Are those rolls OBW? Do you think folks on the internet or ebay would accept them as OBW? They indeed might be considered "original" since they came from a sealed mint bag, but being wrapped with a different technology than existed at the time of issue, and by a bank which did not exist in 1955, it might be a tough sell. And of course this is exactly the silly what-if as you mentioned, but I feel it's important to be clear on what constitutes a true OBW roll, and in general contemporaneous wrapping by a bank (or other agency in their name) is a criteria I personally can't compromise on.
LOL, we are playing the silly "What-If" game again. I really hope that everyone posting on this thread knows that plastic was not used to wrap vintage coins. So as you said, folks would not think they are. Nevertheless, technically the coins are OBW and when one is opened the coins will look like they should. So...We'll just disagree. The cents would be in an OBW roll. If the person taking them to the bank gets them wrapped in plastic rather than paper as in your example...He deserves to lose money. LOL!
Just for the record. I've got a few dozen never-used bank-marked coin rappers in all denominations from the 1950's in storage that belonged to my grandparents. If I remember at least six are dollar size.
It's not what you call it. I just don't think you could tell the difference. All shotgun rolls are going to look the same from the outside. Insider can sniff all he wants at it. My point was that even of it isn't a scam, you really can't be sure that it is a solid roll of CC dollars.
For sure all shotgun rolls DON'T look the same from the outside.
http://macrocoins.com
If you had an "original roll" with CC ends wouldn't you open it?
It's probably best to assume such thing's don't exist.
Collector, occasional seller
For sure, they do not.
http://macrocoins.com
Historically Carson silver dollars went into circulation or sat in various vaults. There does not appear to have been much in the middle for banks to wrap - the era of direct circulation ended well before the era of dollar roll wrapping began. While we find solid-date and even solid variety rolls of 20, these can usually be traced back to non-Carson dollar distribution in the 1950s and 60s.
I'm not sure how you mean this. In the literal sense, of course they don't. But if a bank takes a bag of dollars and rolls them, whether they are solid dates or mixed dates or unc or circulated, they do all look the same if they happened to have a BU CC dollar on the ends (or whatever). You are going to have the bank's wrapper and whatever happens to be on the ends. That's what I mean by "they look the same" - same bank with same ends will look the same no matter what is in the middle.
Now, if you are going to tell me that "back in the day" bank's never wrapped mixed bags or circ dollars. Well, maybe I'll believe you. Insider2 seems to be alleging that. But it's rather hard to believe that a bank that rolls coins wouldn't just roll whatever came in, from Treasury or another bank or even a customer. They do in more modern times (since I was a kid in the 70s) and it's hard to imagine that banks with expensive rolling machines saved them for only fresh UNC bags from the Treasury.
If I had an "original roll" with CC ends, I may not open it. But I would certainly sell it for more than $1550
Very few banks had rolling machines before the 30's. The heyday of coins rolled for distribution by the banks was from the early 30's to the late 60's. Today, few banks have/use rolling machines, as the coin is rolled for them by the distribution companies.
So it comes down to accepting that a bag of CC dollars somehow made it to a bank (possible), and that it was decided to open the bag and roll the coin (possible), and that you accept this type of roll as "OBW" (possible).
Now, I have not looked at the auction lot in question, but from what I've seen in several others I've viewed, the bank wrapper is almost always counterfeit. If the OP would kindly link to the auction lot in question, we can all assess the originality of the roll in question. Usually the fraudsters who sell this crap attempt to make the roll look more authentic by putting an "official-sounding" bank name on it, but they almost always mess up the fonts somehow. It's a bit pathetic to see this, going to all that trouble of making the roll look old and authentic, and then using a font that was invented just a few decades ago.
http://macrocoins.com
Smaller banks - the majority by number of locations until the 1990s - did most of their coin wrapping manually. Their rolls will have folded ends, not crimped ends. Wrapping machines were expensive to purchase, especially if the bank only handled a few rolls per day for local merchants. (Rolling was for the convenience of tellers and local merchants, but the cost was absorbed by the bank.)
Note that coin sorting and wrapping machines were NOT invented for the convenience of coin distribution by the banks. They were invented to help the entertainment, vending machine and trolley companies with preparing coin for return to the banks.
http://macrocoins.com
I think we're talking at cross-purposes. I don't for a minute think that's an "original roll" of CC dollars.
A little off topic, but this is an 1890 vintage automatic coin counting machine from the Royal Mint. Kind of interesting!
royalmintmuseum.org.uk/collection/collection-highlights/minting-equipment/coin-counting-machine/index.html
That is very cool! There was a discussion in another thread regarding counting of US Dollars in IIRC 1895, and mention in docs that the counting was being done by machine. The mints must have put such a counting machine in place around the same time. It's odd that no patent documentation seems to be extant, so perhaps these machines were considered trade secrets and not disclosed at the time. This is very good documentation of contemporary counting technology. Thanks for sharing!
http://macrocoins.com
I was at a FL show two years ago when a young, new, wannabe dealer/collector brought three BWR of Morgan dollars to the table for advice. The wrappers were from a CO bank and were old. The end coins were gem 1882 and CC coins. He bought them on Ebay. He wondered if he should submit the rolls (original CC dollars) for grading. I told him no and that he should sell them as is. I could see that the original rolled crimp at the end of one roll had been opened and restored rather nicely. Later in the show, he returned as he had no takers. Everyone wanted to open the rolls. He insisted I do it so I took the "unoriginal" roll and carefully opened that end. The coins in the middle were mixed dates/mints of common MS-62-63 coins. As I remember, the fellow had paid 3K per roll.
This sounds exactly like what everyone expects these rolls to contain. Made-up rolls with nice coins on the end and junk in the middle, sold as "unopened treasure chests" to the inexperienced.
http://macrocoins.com
Been a topic of discussion here for many years and the very rare rolls are always available on Ebay 24/7 365 days a year. How rare could they be? Always the some MO, usually a CC reverse on one end and a better date on the other, perhaps a 79 or a 85. I watched a vid on youtube of someone opening a roll, 1 83CC and the rest were common dates all 60/63ish. I believe the buyer paid $2k for the roll if my memory serves me correct. I bet as of this writing there are several dozen listings for OBW Morgan rolls.
All the rolls you want, page after page after page after page and guess what still more pages.
81 listings for OBW Morgan rolls on the first page, very rare don't delay
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=rolls&_sacat=39464&_pgn=1
I like the ones with wrappers from the banks that never existed
Some of these sellers take it to another level of deception, DMPL Morgans on both ends.
Although I never did see a OBW roll of Morgan Dollars I did have the privilege to cherry pick several 1882-CC Morgans for $7.00 each from a bag at a show in Cheektowaga NY in the early to mid 1970s. If my memory serves me I think it was owned by a guy named Dave Katz? If only I had more money at the time.
in June of 1975 I also bought several rolls of Morgan Dollars in plastic tubes that were supposedly assembled from original bags at a show in Atlanta near Six Flags. I paid $107.00 per roll and still have a couple of the 1879-Ss and 1887-Ps including a MS66 1879-S in my Morgan Dollar set. I was there on a house hunting trip for a new job assignment and spent the $1000 cash I had brought for a earnest money deposit.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
A long time ago, I bought several paper wrapped solid-date/mint rolls of BU Morgans from a small dealer. The rolls were original and typically contained about equal numbers of two die varieties. That is consistent with mint operations. One of the "half-rolls" was of 1900-O/CC MS64-65 by honest standards back then. I recall that the wrappers were generic - like one could buy in an office supply store. Presumably the dealer was "rolling out" a few bags in order to increase the per-coin margin.
Thanks to all the guys really giving useful advice, because I am fairly new only 35 and been collecting coins for only 2 years. Most on this discussion have been doing before I was ever even though of. Thanks from the Golf Pro!!