@Insider2 said: @jt88 said: "I just bought this from HA, I did not look at the coin before I bid because I don't think I will get it. HA really sell lot of NGC over graded coin or even fake coin. Many of my buyers complaint about that. Looks like there is chop mark on the coin, around 8 o'clock area. I can find many examples of NGC over graded coin.
OK, the two of you have my blood boiling! Previously, the OP has posted at least one coin that was slabbed by a major TPGS and bought in an auction. He became suspicious of the coin and asked members what he should do. We followed his progress over the months until he got a refund from the major auction house.
Now, it is a WELL-KNOWN FACT that ALL the major TPGS have slabbed counterfeit or over-graded coins. A few have been sold through major auctions. The latest have been in the Large cent and 1/2 cent series. Mistakes happen. TPGS's are still one of our best protections against this type of error. So...
I hope this discussion does not turn into an "I prefer this major TPGS because they don't make errors" kind of thread because that's just not helpful. Better for all of us to see the actual error so we can learn from it as the TPGS's do.
IMO, members who disagree with someone OUT OF IGNORANCE (Defined as: the state of being uninformed) should remove their "disagreement" as soon as they become informed.
Auction houses sell coins. Now, they have less of a burden to correctly describe them and pass the initial description on to the slab label. The auction company just adds "fluff." Any errors can be passed back to the TPGS if they are detected.
Unless you live 62 miles above Earth's surface, there really isn't any world at normal atmospheric pressure where your blood should be boiling from my post. The OP literally said " HA really sell lot of NGC over graded coin or even fake coin." implying that HA sells a lot of NGC slabbed coins that are fake. I returned and asked "Are you claiming that Heritage sells a lot of fake coins?" and somehow this is making your blood boil?
Chill. I was just trying to get OP to clarify if he really thinks that Heritage sells a lot of fake coins.
@pbj said: @fiftysevener can you continue to elaborate and clearly spell out the situation that you understand exists? What is the exact nature of the "conflict of interest", and what is its extent? I just watched two episodes of the "American Greed" series that dealt with collectables fraud. One dealt with selling coins that were intentionally overgraded by the fraudsters to unknowing buyers. (season 9, episode 1). Millions of dollars for the fraudsters, and what they were doing _was_illegal and resulted in jail time. The other dealt with fraud in the sports memorabilia market... mainly baseball cards. A major player intentionally overgraded cards and sold known fakes on a large scale. It was also illegal, earned millions for the fraudsters, and ended with jail time. It was on a much larger scale than the coin scam, so also severely damaged the sports memorabilia market forever and caused devaluation of almost every sports collectable! (season 11, episode 8 - both on Hulu)
I want to be clear that I am in no way intimating that coin TPGs are in any way doing this, but I have never heard the claim you are making before, and having just watched both episodes am interested in what you have to say. > @pbj said: @fiftysevener can you continue to elaborate and clearly spell out the situation that you understand exists? What is the exact nature of the "conflict of interest", and what is its extent? I just watched two episodes of the "American Greed" series that dealt with collectables fraud. One dealt with selling coins that were intentionally overgraded by the fraudsters to unknowing buyers. (season 9, episode 1). Millions of dollars for the fraudsters, and what they were doing _was_illegal and resulted in jail time. The other dealt with fraud in the sports memorabilia market... mainly baseball cards. A major player intentionally overgraded cards and sold known fakes on a large scale. It was also illegal, earned millions for the fraudsters, and ended with jail time. It was on a much larger scale than the coin scam, so also severely damaged the sports memorabilia market forever and caused devaluation of almost every sports collectable! (season 11, episode 8 - both on Hulu)
I want to be clear that I am in no way intimating that coin TPGs are in any way doing this, but I have never heard the claim you are making before, and having just watched both episodes am interested in what you have to say.
Since I can say I own NGC, PCGS, and ANACS coins and buy the coin not the holder, I am perplexed as to how collectors have allowed such dealer bias to exist for years. There are a number of dealers who handle only PCGS coins and several of these dealers sit on PCGSs' Board of Experts. One dealer expert even claims openly that NGC coins are not marketable in many cases. So just imagine this dealer crossing NGC graded Newman coins to PCGS so that (in their words) these coins become marketable so they can place them in chosen collections. Nothing wrong of course with more than one grading opinion except the fact that they condone this action and benefit financially from this after establishing their own market is for me a conflict of interest.
@pbj said: @fiftysevener can you continue to elaborate and clearly spell out the situation that you understand exists? What is the exact nature of the "conflict of interest", and what is its extent? I just watched two episodes of the "American Greed" series that dealt with collectables fraud. One dealt with selling coins that were intentionally overgraded by the fraudsters to unknowing buyers. (season 9, episode 1). Millions of dollars for the fraudsters, and what they were doing _was_illegal and resulted in jail time. The other dealt with fraud in the sports memorabilia market... mainly baseball cards. A major player intentionally overgraded cards and sold known fakes on a large scale. It was also illegal, earned millions for the fraudsters, and ended with jail time. It was on a much larger scale than the coin scam, so also severely damaged the sports memorabilia market forever and caused devaluation of almost every sports collectable! (season 11, episode 8 - both on Hulu)
I want to be clear that I am in no way intimating that coin TPGs are in any way doing this, but I have never heard the claim you are making before, and having just watched both episodes am interested in what you have to say. > @pbj said: @fiftysevener can you continue to elaborate and clearly spell out the situation that you understand exists? What is the exact nature of the "conflict of interest", and what is its extent? I just watched two episodes of the "American Greed" series that dealt with collectables fraud. One dealt with selling coins that were intentionally overgraded by the fraudsters to unknowing buyers. (season 9, episode 1). Millions of dollars for the fraudsters, and what they were doing _was_illegal and resulted in jail time. The other dealt with fraud in the sports memorabilia market... mainly baseball cards. A major player intentionally overgraded cards and sold known fakes on a large scale. It was also illegal, earned millions for the fraudsters, and ended with jail time. It was on a much larger scale than the coin scam, so also severely damaged the sports memorabilia market forever and caused devaluation of almost every sports collectable! (season 11, episode 8 - both on Hulu)
I want to be clear that I am in no way intimating that coin TPGs are in any way doing this, but I have never heard the claim you are making before, and having just watched both episodes am interested in what you have to say.
Since I can say I own NGC, PCGS, and ANACS coins and buy the coin not the holder, I am perplexed as to how collectors have allowed such dealer bias to exist for years. There are a number of dealers who handle only PCGS coins and several of these dealers sit on PCGSs' Board of Experts. One dealer expert even claims openly that NGC coins are not marketable in many cases. So just imagine this dealer crossing NGC graded Newman coins to PCGS so that (in their words) these coins become marketable so they can place them in chosen collections. Nothing wrong of course with more than one grading opinion except the fact that they condone this action and benefit financially from this after establishing their own market is for me a conflict of interest.
As a stockholder who is suffering, please only just buy and grade using PCGS as they have the best track record for quality grading and ultimate sale price as far as I am concerned.
My opinion is all that matters as by the time I'm ready to buy something I've already basically turned the coin inside out. I'm super picky, use a mental checklist, and consider all factors of long term ownership and resale way before I even get to the point of pulling out a loupe for a final magnified inspection. Today I own just about as much raw as I do in any TPG holders. All that being said I don't have a favorite type of acrylic nor did I allow myself to be brainwashed into worshipping any sticker gods and still sleep perfectly well each night.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
Ngc photo is unbelievable bad. I just can’t understand why ngc holders can still stand it.
Huge difference in both photo. First one from auction house and the second one from ngc.
Both holders have there problems, PCGS holders are more durable, have better pictures with the gold shield, and lighter than Heaver NGC, But NGC holders display the coin more vividly with white backgrounds making the coin pop out compared to PCGS transparent background, and also even though NGC photos are not as good as PGGS, NGC photos of coins are more common and standard than PCGS. Let’s just say PCGS and NGC have there yins and yangs
@jt88 said:
Ngc photo is unbelievable bad. I just can’t understand why ngc holders can still stand it.
Huge difference in both photo. First one from auction house and the second one from ngc.
I will make this comment.
I really does not matter when it comes to modern coins!
Other than that I go back to the OLD saying to buy the coin not the holder.
A CAC sticker kinda make both equal.
Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211
@PTVETTER said:
I will make this comment.
I really does not matter when it comes to modern coins!
Other than that I go back to the OLD saying to buy the coin not the holder.
A CAC sticker kinda make both equal.
I like to buy nice problem free coins regardless of the plastic they come in... I'll buy PCGS, NGC, ANACS, IGC, 2x2 flip, manilla envelope with a cotton sleeve... Whatever... I look at the coin. As far as submission, if it's a short run that I don't have a book for, I'll go to PCGS.
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
The current incarnation of my coin collection contains 122 slabbed coins. The breakdown is as follows:
PCGS - 103
NGC - 16
ANACS - 2
ICG - 1
As you can see, the vast majority of my slabbed coins are in PCGS plastic. From those 122 coins, I went through and picked out my Top 10 Favorite Coins. These are coins that have exceptional eye appeal, rarity, would be next-to-impossible for me to replace, or are just plain cool! Here's the breakdown of those 10 coins:
PCGS - 5
NGC - 5
So while PCGS plastic dominates my entire collection, my "Best of the Best" is equally represented by PCGS and NGC. In other words, there are GREAT coins to be found in the slabs of both of the top tier services.
My current coin collecting interests are: (1) British coins 1838-1970 in XF-AU-UNC, (2) silver type coins in XF-AU with that classic medium gray coloration and exceptional eye appeal.
@Broadstruck said:
My opinion is all that matters as by the time I'm ready to buy something I've already basically turned the coin inside out. I'm super picky, use a mental checklist, and consider all factors of long term ownership and resale way before I even get to the point of pulling out a loupe for a final magnified inspection. Today I own just about as much raw as I do in any TPG holders. All that being said I don't have a favorite type of acrylic nor did I allow myself to be brainwashed into worshipping any sticker gods and still sleep perfectly well each night.
Broadstruck, I took half my high-end raws to get certified at Long Beach last February. 5 went to PCGS and 22 went to NGC,
I am fairly sure your results we be similar to mine as we have the same "eye".
25 out of 27 coins graded at least two points higher than expected
The plastic paid for itself about a week after I got the coins back
It worked so well for me, I am bringing close to 40 mint errors to long beach for a trip through the TPG systems.
I was extremely disillusioned when I submitted an obvious problem coin that was originally graded MS-69 and it came back MS-66. The "reimbursement" policy meant absolutely zilch.
I've also had marginal experiences with previously stable coins changing once holdered and the subsequent "conservation" completely changing the "look" of the coin.
There are no magic bullets.
The original justification of "sight unseen" trading in a fluid market has been completely destroyed, then again - it had obvious holes in the theory to begin with.
Buy the coin, not the holder - and insist on a full return policy. Period!
I agree with RogerB in one aspect, authentication is important. To that I would simply add - you are paying for an opinion. Keep in mind that it's an opinion.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
@ErrorsOnCoins said:
I took half my high-end raws to get certified at Long Beach last February. 5 went to PCGS and 22 went to NGC
How do you decide which goes to which?
I know some coins are more popular in different holders, but don't know about errors in that respect.
That is a fanatic question.
LOL - just for fun, I must ask you @ErrorsOnCoins - are you saying that Zoins is a fanatic for asking his question or is his question directed toward a fanatic (being you)? If so, fantastic!
All in good humor!
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I own both holdered coins and have a few with both opinions. I think most coins show better in NGC holders. Silver Dollars I think show better in PCGS holders.
Comments
Unless you live 62 miles above Earth's surface, there really isn't any world at normal atmospheric pressure where your blood should be boiling from my post. The OP literally said " HA really sell lot of NGC over graded coin or even fake coin." implying that HA sells a lot of NGC slabbed coins that are fake. I returned and asked "Are you claiming that Heritage sells a lot of fake coins?" and somehow this is making your blood boil?
Chill. I was just trying to get OP to clarify if he really thinks that Heritage sells a lot of fake coins.
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, and coinlieutenant.
Since I can say I own NGC, PCGS, and ANACS coins and buy the coin not the holder, I am perplexed as to how collectors have allowed such dealer bias to exist for years. There are a number of dealers who handle only PCGS coins and several of these dealers sit on PCGSs' Board of Experts. One dealer expert even claims openly that NGC coins are not marketable in many cases. So just imagine this dealer crossing NGC graded Newman coins to PCGS so that (in their words) these coins become marketable so they can place them in chosen collections. Nothing wrong of course with more than one grading opinion except the fact that they condone this action and benefit financially from this after establishing their own market is for me a conflict of interest.
Wow! I did not realize this.
As a stockholder who is suffering, please only just buy and grade using PCGS as they have the best track record for quality grading and ultimate sale price as far as I am concerned.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
My opinion is all that matters as by the time I'm ready to buy something I've already basically turned the coin inside out. I'm super picky, use a mental checklist, and consider all factors of long term ownership and resale way before I even get to the point of pulling out a loupe for a final magnified inspection. Today I own just about as much raw as I do in any TPG holders. All that being said I don't have a favorite type of acrylic nor did I allow myself to be brainwashed into worshipping any sticker gods and still sleep perfectly well each night.
Ngc photo is unbelievable bad. I just can’t understand why ngc holders can still stand it.
Huge difference in both photo. First one from auction house and the second one from ngc.
I just happen to have both of these holders in my collection...............................
I meant to say that I have all three of these holders in my collection......
90% of my coins are currently in PCGS holders..............
for some reason I prefer the older ANACS holders because they are the best ever......
NEXT!
PCGS hands down! I've had the Need Glasses Charlie folks screw too many things up, especially easy to attribute doubled dies.
Both holders have there problems, PCGS holders are more durable, have better pictures with the gold shield, and lighter than Heaver NGC, But NGC holders display the coin more vividly with white backgrounds making the coin pop out compared to PCGS transparent background, and also even though NGC photos are not as good as PGGS, NGC photos of coins are more common and standard than PCGS. Let’s just say PCGS and NGC have there yins and yangs
NGC photographs EVERY coin they holder with this type of photo, which is only for checking the authenticity of a coin/holder. PCGS does not do this.
However, they did just relaunch their "PhotoVision" service, which offer much nicer photos.
I will make this comment.
I really does not matter when it comes to modern coins!
Other than that I go back to the OLD saying to buy the coin not the holder.
A CAC sticker kinda make both equal.
My eye is better than a holder OR a CAC sticker.
I've seen others say the exact thing. I like the older "blue label" pcgs holders
I once crossed "FOR FREE" a 1937 PRF 67 Walker from NGC to PCGS during the big who's the best "wee-wee" argument 22 years ago
I like PCGS because of TrueView provided Phil & team and PCGS CoinFacts by Ron & team.
NGC is very behind in the premium photography area.
I like to buy nice problem free coins regardless of the plastic they come in... I'll buy PCGS, NGC, ANACS, IGC, 2x2 flip, manilla envelope with a cotton sleeve... Whatever... I look at the coin. As far as submission, if it's a short run that I don't have a book for, I'll go to PCGS.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
The current incarnation of my coin collection contains 122 slabbed coins. The breakdown is as follows:
PCGS - 103
NGC - 16
ANACS - 2
ICG - 1
As you can see, the vast majority of my slabbed coins are in PCGS plastic. From those 122 coins, I went through and picked out my Top 10 Favorite Coins. These are coins that have exceptional eye appeal, rarity, would be next-to-impossible for me to replace, or are just plain cool!
Here's the breakdown of those 10 coins:
PCGS - 5
NGC - 5
So while PCGS plastic dominates my entire collection, my "Best of the Best" is equally represented by PCGS and NGC. In other words, there are GREAT coins to be found in the slabs of both of the top tier services.
Broadstruck, I took half my high-end raws to get certified at Long Beach last February. 5 went to PCGS and 22 went to NGC,
I am fairly sure your results we be similar to mine as we have the same "eye".
25 out of 27 coins graded at least two points higher than expected
The plastic paid for itself about a week after I got the coins back
It worked so well for me, I am bringing close to 40 mint errors to long beach for a trip through the TPG systems.
How do you decide which goes to which?
I know some coins are more popular in different holders, but don't know about errors in that respect.
I was extremely disillusioned when I submitted an obvious problem coin that was originally graded MS-69 and it came back MS-66. The "reimbursement" policy meant absolutely zilch.
I've also had marginal experiences with previously stable coins changing once holdered and the subsequent "conservation" completely changing the "look" of the coin.
There are no magic bullets.
The original justification of "sight unseen" trading in a fluid market has been completely destroyed, then again - it had obvious holes in the theory to begin with.
Buy the coin, not the holder - and insist on a full return policy. Period!
I agree with RogerB in one aspect, authentication is important. To that I would simply add - you are paying for an opinion. Keep in mind that it's an opinion.
I knew it would happen.
That is a fantastic question.
The high dollar coins go to PCGS. Coins that only Fred will get right go to PCGS.
The vast majority go to NGC because of the pricing. Basically 2 for 1.
This trip I have I think 3 for PCGS and about 35 for NGC.
NGC has 4 ancients, currently. I suspect they'll be problems . ( mine almost always are).
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
What do you mean "4 ancients"? Like old Denarius or something.
Good thread. I have both, (And a couple of ANACS) PCGS is my favorite, but I like both.
My YouTube Channel
Yeah. Something like that. I'll post a photo or link, later.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
LOL - just for fun, I must ask you @ErrorsOnCoins - are you saying that Zoins is a fanatic for asking his question or is his question directed toward a fanatic (being you)?
If so, fantastic!
All in good humor!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Thanks, Funny guy, I did fix it now.
That being said, I know for one that I am a fanatic
I own both holdered coins and have a few with both opinions. I think most coins show better in NGC holders. Silver Dollars I think show better in PCGS holders.