ICG option on PCGS coins needing conservation
logger7
Posts: 8,437 ✭✭✭✭✭
I had this PCGS rattler coin I paid around $120 for that needed conservation: 
ICG nicely conserved it for me: 
0
logger7
Posts: 8,437 ✭✭✭✭✭
logger7
Posts: 8,437 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
it looked like it had been at the bottom of a septic tank before, now it looks like it was only at the bottom of a swamp. not much was accomplished, if this is the best ICG can do they should quit the coin conservation business.
It looks better !!!
Unfortunately the scanner images don't show the pretty colors and hues. The reverse had some type of residue (pvc). With PCGS's warranty/guarantee submission program taking around 3 months, what other reasonable option do you have? ICG should charge for conservation but doesn't.
Try propping the slab up from being flat on the scanner.
You should get a better picture.
I would have dumped it and bought another example that looked like a normal coin. That coin is not attractive.
bob
I am not disputing your strategy, but I don't know enough about the process to understand what was going on here. Are you saying that a 3 month wait would have gotten that fixed and reholdered in PCGS plastic for free?
As I see it, it went from PCGS to ICG. If ICG did the goop removal for free then that was a good deal for sure, but it is still in ICG plastic. If it is just for you with no eye toward resale then who cares, but if that is the case, why was the 3 month delay at PCGS an issue? (We need a head-scratching emoji).
I am surely missing something....
I don't see how pcgs could have done much better. It may tectnicly be a 65 but it just doesn't have the eye appeal of a 65. These common date 65's are selling cheap these days. You should have been more patient and found one much better looking for the same price.
I hate to be a killjoy, but the coin is still a problem coin and now you are without PCGS plastic and a rattler to boot. I would have dumped it to one of the "lowball" dealers who look at their CDN/the TPGS insert and not the coin for a quick dump. No offense meant.
I'm also confused as to why you would pay full retail for a problem free MS65 for a problem coin and then pay to have it conserved/crossed to ICG. You would have been much better off buying a nice MS65 the first time.
The PCGS guarantee doesn't cover conservation or any surface deterioration that occurred while slabbed. So OP would have had to pay for it (besides dealing with the wait). My guess is PCGS would have refused to conserve it, knowing it wouldn't have had very positive results.
ICG either used something gentle like acetone which removed the reverse PVC (and it looks great, BTW) but didn't do much for the obverse. Or they did an acid dip which couldn't help the obverse (probably permanently stained).
I'm not a fan but to each his own.
Lance.
I'm sure ICG did the best they could...
I'd rather have a nice coin in an ICG holder any day than an ugly or problem coin in an NGC or PCGS holder. The coin actually has a lot of luster and eye appeal in hand. I bought it with some other coins from the dealer that were old holder and the problem didn't jump out at me until later. I don't like bias or presumptuous judgments against anyone or anything, and like ICG's fast efficient and inexpensive service.
@insider2 - Thoughts? Any insights?
I've had very good experiences with ICG. Most recently I sent them an S-VDB which both PCGS and NGC declined to authenticate. Each said "we can't be sure...here's your refund".
ICG took the time and trouble to review their extensive documentation and presented their findings to their friendly neighbor (NGC), who then agreed it was indeed an authentic S-VDB.
Kudos to ICG for going the extra mile.
Too bad ICG doesn't have deep-pocketed investors to help it attain the respect it deserves.
Lance.
Wow. Im guessing ICG doesn't get many PCGS holders for crossover let alone rattlers. I wonder if they gave the office a 10min break when the package was opened
However I wondered how it would cross BACK to PCGS
I would of sent it in to are host to see what they could do 1st. Oh well it's done now.
Hoard the keys.
The problem of doing a warranty/guarantee submission is that the whole process can easily take 3 months and they can easily avoid shouldering the costs associated with a quick dip to remove a problem substance that developed after the coin was slabbed 30 or so years ago: https://www.pcgs.com/guarantee
With ICG you have costs around $10-$19 a coin, fast turn-around times; the problem is their holders don't have the status; were imaging available to compare apples with apples then much of the anxiety/insecurity about not having an NGC/PCGS coin would be lessened.
While the conservation efforts improved the coin, it is still not a pleasant coin to look at...well.. the reverse is actually very nice. I have coins in ICG holders... I believe they deserve more credit than normally accorded. Cheers, RickO
my girlfriend tells me I can be coarse sometimes, so I thought I would clarify my earlier post.
the coin in the original PCGS rattler didn't look very nice and despite the OP assertion that it has nice luster it is hard for me to look at, let alone consider buying. with that said, I know a little about coin conservation and the most important aspect is in assessing a particular coin, determining what the actual problems are and having an effective way to remedy them. I believe PCGS has the expertise/personnel to address all problems that we encounter so it would probably have been a better choice to send them the coin.
I don't understand why the OP is so concerned with the low cost offered by ICG when that is negated by the value that the market places on their holdered coins. on top of that, IMHO they did the OP a disservice by helping the reverse, not really helping the obverse and losing the holder: read, value. in the long run the OP probably would have been best served by doing what others have said, sell the coin and be done with it.
Too bad ICG doesn't have deep-pocketed investors to help it attain the respect it deserves
again, just my opinion, but ICG was gaining Hobby respect when James Taylor was at the helm back in the late 1990's. they still have what I think is the best designed holder and at that time were grading competitively and on par, in my judgment, with PCGS and NGC. then they made a critical error --- perhaps recognizing those facts, they attempted to gain ground by flooding the market and going after NGC's monopoly on Moderns. the result was predictable with over graded coins, wrongly/misattributed coins and the worst, one-sided CAM/DCAM's.
that was right around the same time that PCI and ANACS climbed into the dumpster and a number of years before ANACS and ICG each moved at least once and actually swapped grading teams!!! for anyone who didn't know that, yes, it really happened.
Nice coin still. If this was a Barber coin it might market grade 66
I disagree with this poster and the others but not because they think the coin is unattractive. I was one of the founders of NCS at another grading service. I conserved the coin at ICG for this member. At this time we don't charge people for conservation.
Grading, toning, etc is a SUBJECTIVE thing. Apparently, a grading team and finalizer at PCGS (at a time when they had much stricter grading standards) was of the opinion that this coin was worth MS-65 money. Unfortunately, nine of our local "ex-perts" disagrees with the professionals at PCGs and thinks it is an Ugly Piece of Crap.
We all have personal opinions and are free to express them in an open forum. Basing opinions on an image is seldom a good idea but it is fun. It is too bad the colorful hues on the obverse and the lack of marks do not show up. I advised leaving the coin as is but agreed to remove the PVC stains from the reverse. Since grading has evolved since the time this coin was first slabbed, the professionals at ICG including a nationally recognized authority on silver dollars/member of the Silver Dollar Roundtable graded the coin an MS-65+.
Therefore, IMO, the coin is correctly graded and is more attractive in its present slab. One day we may find it graded by another TPGS as an MS-66.
PS In the past eight years, a TPGS that shall remain a secret as it is not "professional" to brag has conserved almost 3K coins for free. Business is terrific!
That's right folks! "Buy the coin, not the label."> @cameonut2011 said:
See above, just back from the FUN Show.
You wouldn't believe the yearly numbers (up each year) if I told you.
Let me remind everyone that this is the PCGS Forum. I don't wish to defend any other grading service.
Agreed. I wouldn't buy that coin in any holder or raw at a price consistent with its assigned grade. I'm not challenging the grade, but ugly is ugly. That's not a slight to ICG, PCGS, you, or anyone else. You can only work with the cards you are dealt and two pair isn't going to magically become a royal flush.
BTW, the obverse was not touched.
Looks more like Environmental Damage to me. The tarnish is so deep it has become staining.
Take a look at all the auctions. EVERY COIN with black rims is CORRODED. So, technically, you are 100% correct.
A very famous numismatist, author, and chemist is ALSO technically correct when he writes that all toning [including very attractive rainbow colors the increase the value and eye appeal of a coin for most connoisseurs] is environmental damage!
@Insider2
How do you physically only conserve one side of a coin?
Acetone doesn't alter toning.
Is there any chance a dip would not have made the obverse worse?
Actually, in some cases, acetone will lighten toning and even the removal of "skin" can change the appearance of oxidation without removing it.d
That is easy! Now think a little and take a guess.
Yes. In the opinion of the person doing the conservation, this coin would be worth less if dipped. Toning/tarnish/NT/AT is a very complicated and subjective proposition. There are cases where coins have been ruined. There are also cases when I did not wish to dip something as the OP's coin and the owner of the company told me to do it - the coin "popped" and the grade went up two points.
Why touch a coin that top graders in the country thought was an MS-65!!! Toned coins are desirable for two groups of people. Those who like toning and those who cannot wait to purchase the coin and make it "white" with a dip.
The trick is to now sent it from conservation with ngc and then send it back to pcgs for their conservation. Photo each time. Would make a neat display at a coin show. First prize!
If a coin is completely conserved properly, there is nothing that will change and the second service will be taking money for nothing. There are instances - all hearsay until proven, that folks paid for conservation and nothing was done. I cannot believe that. Heck, swish it around in deionized water, dry it and keep the money; but do something. Otherwise, send it back and say It needs nothing, I've done that quite a few times.
Just like a car.
Apparently, a grading team and finalizer at PCGS (at a time when they had much stricter grading standards) was of the opinion that this coin was worth MS-65 money
can you verify what the coin looked like about 30 years ago when the above referenced grading took place?? my belief is that the coin changed in the holder, probably due to heat and humidity during long term storage. also, it is my experience that PVC isn't always visible, but shows up clearly after enough time has passed. that is almost certainly the case here, I doubt that even during the early years of PCGS that they would have knowingly holdered a coin with active PVC.
to that end for the reverse, the submitter would have been better served if the obverse could have been helped, I cannot convince myself from this image that the coin would be "attractive" in-hand.
OK, guys. Be specific...how do you conserve one side of a coin?
With a Q-Tip,,,,, on an MS coin only.
Yes. With a Q-tip and a liquid chemical but what else. How would you do it?
Very carefully
If would depend on what needed to be done to the coin,,,,,,, if encased in dirt and crud I might use a toothpick to gently loosen the crud.
Obviously I’ve never tried conserving a coin, but won’t a Q-Tip leave marks? And I was a chemistry major as an undergraduate.
I think the reverse looks a lot better after the conservation. I would have asked for you to do some work on the obverse as well if you thought you could have made it look better.
This is getting too complicated. What you are describing has all been removed prior to the final steps. All wished to express is that you "roll" the chemical on and you make sure none goes over on to the rim. This is easy to do with a Morgan dollar.
Based only on the pics provided:
ICG removing some reverse PVC but doing nothing to the apparently ugly obverse—and then adding a + to the newly conserved coin—is odd. I assume that like PCGS/NGC, the ICG + is meant to recognize some eye appeal in addition to technical merits for the assigned grade...yet this Morgan’s obverse remained untouched and ugly.
Big difference. Glad your happy
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Yes, of course. Lots of coins are nice on one side while the other is yucky. While learning to detect artificial toning and chemical alterations by experiment, I created the most beautiful one-sided brown Indian cent. It actually had a quarter inch, natural-looking crescent rainbow with pink/yellow/blue across the center of the obverse. The reverse looked like someone burned soy sauce all over it!
I'm going to guess the goal of any conservation would be to help preserve the item while increasing its attractiveness. The less that needs attention, the less is done. Sometimes it is just a copper spot. Proper conservation is done in steps. Each step prepares the item for the next step. I'm making it sound more complicated than it is but we don't just dup a coin into dip.
Here is another PCGS but much better date OH Morgan I was looking at in hand earlier:
Even darker in hand, I wonder how cac or other numismatist would see it?
Don't touch that one! There was a time when dark coins as this maxed out at MS-64.
And talk about "terminal toning".