Recent PCGS coin order issues
Arkman
Posts: 18 ✭✭
Hello everyone! I am new to the forums, so I apologize if I am supposed to put this topic somewhere else.
I recently have several coins come back with problems but PCGS doesn't give any information on what is actually wrong with the coin.
The first is a 1922 Grant w/star half dollar. It came back as UNC details with damage. The only thing I can see in the image is what appears to be some letters on the reverse near "E Pluribus". Do you think that is what they are referring to?
The second coin is an 1825 half dollar that came back as UNC details with altered surfaces. I don't know what exactly I am looking for, but I can't tell that anything looks altered on this coin. Please take a look at the image and let me know what might be the issue. If it is something I could have conserved I would do so to get a clean grade since this is a very nice coin.
I appreciate any insight!
Comments
Also, can someone tell me where this coin was cleaned? It came back as UNC details cleaned.
I'd say you are correct on the Grant for that damage on the reverse above/on E Pluribus.
IMO the 1825 half may have been dipped (or otherewise cleaned) and retoned.
The 2 center appears that it has that shine/sheen of having been treated with something.
Other than the Grant, I'd have thought the others looked market acceptable, but PCGS is in a very conservative window at the moment, so I'm not totally shocked.
Thanks ModCrewman for your comments. So conservation on the 1825 wouldn't help then? What do you think those letters are from on the Grant?
Without seeing them in person, my thoughts:
-The Grant has been through a counting machine that left marks on the head, and perhaps under the word Grant.
-The Bust half looks like it was buffed at one time.
-The copper, can't tell, but was not worth the grading fees even if it was a problem free AU coin.
Thanks for the comments Wabbit2313. So the 1825 is not a lacquer issue? If it was buffed, wouldn't it come back cleaned instead of altered surfaces?
For the Grant, what do you think the letters are by "E Plurb"?
The Grant Half looks like a clashed die (E PLURIBUS UNUM and under GOD) and appears to have Doubling/Tripling on the OBV (HALF DOLLAR)
https://images.pcgs.com/TrueView/35655337_max.jpg
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First of all beautiful coins and I know how you feel. I cant comment on exactly why it graded that way just not experienced enough. But just wanted to tell you how nice your coins are. Beautiful.
Looks like some kind of clash on the Grant. As far as the Bust, who knows. Send it back in, or somewhere else. Those Alt. Surfaces coins can come back problem free.
So, the "damage" that PCGS claimed for the Grant might actually be an error? Or in this instance is that one in the same? I thought that there was some doubling on the E PLURIBUS UNUM but wasn't sure.
Thanks Gluggo!
If I send the 1825 back in should I crack it out first? If the Grant is a clash, would NGC also consider that damage? I thought PCGS was classify the clashed die instead of calling it damaged.
I think the damage on the grant is from a counting machine, not the clash. It looks funky in general and might be time to just get rid of it and get a nice one. I can't read minds though so who knows. Crack the half before re-sending it anywhere!
The more I look at the Grant the more I can see the clashed die. It looks like it is the "United" from the obverse in the field by the "E Pluribus Unum" and you can see what looks like an "L" at the top of the reverse by "God". Is that the damage that PCGS is referring to or are they talking about something else? I just am confused as to why PCGS would call this striking error damage. Do I need to denote this die clash when I submit it in order to have it mentioned on the label and not considered damage?
Thanks again for the comments. Should I keep the Grant in the holder when selling or take it out? For the 1825, is the best way to remove it from the holder still a hammer on the corner of the holder?
I use a cloth (to deflect flying shards of plastic) covered vice and squeeze the upper portion of the slab to crack the coin out.
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Thanks! I will try that this time. Do you think I should send back to PCGS, or send to NGC for the resubmit?
On a related note, in this same submission, I had an 1878-S Trade Dollar come back as code 86 unable to determine authenticity. Can anyone tell me what diagnostic characteristics I should look for to determine if the coin isn't genuine? I assume that PCGS looked at most of the normal things (coin weight, magnetism, etc) but those must have checked out since they didn't call it counterfeit. As usual, there are no notes to tell me what about the coin was questionable. Let me know what you see, if anything, that would cause this coin to be questionable.
I'm sorry to be a "critic" on these coins, but as someone who has been stung many times by sellers of raw coins that should grade "ms" or "au" as no problem, they all look like problem coins to me, on a good day. Neither PCGS, NGC, ICG or Anacs would straight grade those puppies, I would take them back to the seller and try to get money back. They are all impaired coins, and Trueview makes many even problem coins look better than they are in hand. Compare to Coinfacts or other online images of straight graded coins. I'm sorry you are going through this expensive lesson.
What, specifically do you see are impairments or just what PCGS has stated?
The coins don't look right even with those top quality images; the Bust has a "chrome" like look, no real luster. The Grant has no luster that I can see on top of the other problems. Compare with Coinfacts images.
The 2¢ looks to have been lacquered.
I found that using wire cutters works well with just 2 snips. In relation to the coin, one cut at 9:00 and one cut at 3:00. It cracks right in half very cleanly.... (at least for me it does).
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Well Grant is frowning so he ain't too happy about being details graded
Both obverse sides are scratched: Grant long line between/above right ear and eye; half appears to have scratch lines and graffiti and it very much appears to have very nice ghosting on the reverse. Nice coins!
I'm going to wager a guess without seeing in hand -
Grant - scratch by eye, but the tell is going to be how deep and shiny the eyebrow is scraped (and tip of nose).
1825 half - accelerated toning after a light cleaning. Cleaning may have been long ago
2 cent - has that dipped orange flavor under a recoloring
Trade dollar - harshly cleaned to hide the counterfeiting
Again, it is difficult to see without being able to rotate the around and check the surfaces better. Photos are too one dimensional. Hope this helps some
Also, don't let the costs of tuition discourage your collecting. Learn, buy slabbed coins and enjoy!
Grant - reverse 3 o'clock rim damage
bust half - surfaces looked whizzed
2c - chemically cleaned leaving some 'pumpkin orange'
trade - so harshly cleaned (like with brillo pad) that PCGS uncertain if fake or real
The toning pattern behind Grant's head is not natural. It looks like either toning or corrosion probably covered most of the field before much of it was removed. The field looks damaged, just behind the top of Grant's ear. It may be due to an imperfect strike, but it looks like the field was rubbed so hard that even some of the hair detail was lost.
The field in front of Grant's face looks wiped too. PCGS may have seen so much wrong that they went with damaged, which covers the worst of the offenses done to this coin.
The clash is not the issue. See the coinfacts example. Same clash, later die state.
I took a look at the CoinFacts page and the MS67+ they have pictured has less detail by the ear than my coin. I see a scrape on the forehead that moves into the hair, but I thought that would be minor when they are talking about damage. I think I might crack it out and try again. What's worse, UNC details damaged or UNC details cleaned?
I am considering cracking the 1825 and resubmitting. Do you think conservation would help this coin?
For the Trade dollar, do you think I should resubmit or is it not worth it? A genuine cleaned coin would be better than what I have now in my opinion anyway.
The Trade Dollar looks hopeless to me.
My recommendation would be to sell them as is, take your loss, then buy slabbed coins until you bring your skill level up.... Buying raw when new to coins is always expensive tuition. Good luck, Cheers, RickO
Having started this hobby just over a year ago I can't agree with this comment more. I too learned the hard way, but after reading much of the posts here you come to appreciate slabbed coins to learn what MS graded coins should look like. I know its hard to stop chasing the hope that you'll find that diamond in the rough, but that path is costly.
Dean
Don't quote me on that.
Do not spend any more money trying to put these coins into a slab.
And do not spend any more money with the sellers who sold you these coins.
The 1825 would depend on the luster and how bad the surface is impaired. Pictures do not tell the entire story. When a coin is whizzed, a tool like a dremel with a small wire wheel is used to flatten out all nicks and form a new 'shine'.
Are there any coin shows near you? If so take them and have a dealer exam them as is and they many times would be able to explain the problems. If they were mine, I would make them pocket pieces for a couple years and use as poker card protectors.
The ANA frequently has 2 day grading courses at major shows around the country. I would highly recommend one, as they cost less than you probably overspent on these coins for purchase and grading.
Well the 1825 came back as altered surfaces, but the Grant came back as Surfaces Smoothed, which I take to mean whizzed? Another coin came back with the same designation which I have included below. I thought it was a nice 3 cent piece.
I think I will take the advice of dave and take some to a coin show or dealer and see if they can tell me if conservation would be of any use.
Thanks everyone for the comments!
Do not consider conservation. Conservation costs money and you have already spend more than these coins are worth.
You are hoping against hope. The coins you have shown here have no potential to be improved.
You have received two good pieces of advice here.
The first is from logger7 - take them back to the seller and try to get money back.
The second is from ricko - sell them as is, take your loss.
Take your coins to a coin show. Ask to see a three cent coin in a slab. Compare a few examples to your coin.
After three comparisons, you will see the difference.
Then, you will be on your way.