Does PCGS have the same policy?

Type2

I was looking up a cert across the street for a friend on a Mexican copper coin and saw this does PCGS have the same policy?

Copper Coins Notice: Coins made of copper, bronze, brass or are copper-plated can change over time. Accordingly, with regard to copper, bronze, brass or copper-plated coins graded by NGC, the grade portion will no longer apply after the 10 year anniversary of their date of encapsulation by NGC. This coin was encapsulated on 8/19/2010 and the grade guarantee will expire on 8/19/2020. If the grade guarantee has not expired, it may be extended by submitting the coin under NGC's ReHolder service tier. If the grade guarantee has expired, the coin will be treated as a raw (ungraded) submission if resubmitted to NGC.

lkeigwin

In 2010 PCGS declared that any coin graded or sold after 2010 (April?) would no longer be subject to PCGS's color guarantee. I don't believe there was any condition about the coin's non-color grade.

There was no "rolling" guarantee either, about coins graded after 2010. It was a hard date. Bought after 2010? Graded (or regraded) after 2010? SOL.
Lance.

Type2

Yes that's right I recall that thank you, So any copper coin in a NGC holder will not be under warrantee after 10 years. So all coins made of copper will need to be regarded every 10 years to keep that grade now that's kind a of crazy. So much for Red you are playing with fire if RED and needs to be regarded in 5 years I think it will need a date on the cert, I may pass on a coin that is RB that is now brown that needs to be graded again.. You can lose a boat lode of $$$$$ fast.

northcoin

If I recall correctly, PCGS would not even grade copper coins at one point in time when NGC was grading copper.

PerryHall

I don't trust old red copper coins. Copper is one of the most reactive metals used for coinage. I prefer old copper coins that are chocolate brown in color since they've already toned and are more stable. A local coin dealer has a very nice MS64RB 1909SVDB cent in a PCGS slab. Unfortunately this coin has turned brown in the slab. He wants RB money for it based on the label. The PCGS price guide shows the RB to be worth about $300 more than the BN so I can't buy it without overpaying for it.

cameonut2011

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lkeigwin

Yeah, it's a crapshoot.

I have 100 year old red copper MS cents graded decades ago that are every bit red as when they were minted. Many dozens.

But will they still be decades later? Who knows. But they sure are pretty.
Lance.

PerryHall

Ikeigwin---That cent is a real beauty. Do you take any special precautions such as Intercept Shield holders when you store it?

Type2

Yes that would be a hard one to pass very nice..... how much do you want for it...

Paradisefound

What a treasure @lkeigwin

1Mike1

Don't want to derail the thread BUT Lance has some really nice copper, you should check out his registry collection.

ricko

Copper does change fast when left to the open environment...and while I would not say it is stable in a slab, I would say it is much slower to tarnish in proper storage. Cheers, RickO

oldabeintx

@Type2 said:
Yes that's right I recall that thank you, So any copper coin in a NGC holder will not be under warrantee after 10 years. So all coins made of copper will need to be regarded every 10 years to keep that grade now that's kind a of crazy. So much for Red you are playing with fire if RED and needs to be regarded in 5 years I think it will need a date on the cert, I may pass on a coin that is RB that is now brown that needs to be graded again.. You can lose a boat lode of $$$$$ fast.

I sent some NGC coppers in that needed reholdering, They had been graded some time ago, but I had no way to tell how long ago it was done. They sent me a note that they wouldn't reholder several of them without regrading and that the color or numerical grade would be lowered. I had them send some back to me as is and sold them. These were fairly recent purchases that were priced right, so no harm done. But illustrates that the adage "buy the coin..." applies to color as well. Also, the numerical grade was lowered on one of the coins I chose to reholder, and it was a BN coin to begin with, So, buy copper right and store it right.

Insider2

@lkeigwin said:
Yeah, it's a crapshoot.

I have 100 year old red copper MS cents graded decades ago that are every bit red as when they were minted. Many dozens.

But will they still be decades later? Who knows. But they sure are pretty.
Lance.

You are one lucky... I've been avoiding red copper for decades.

Cougar1978

Don’t do copper coins unless real cheap / flip quickly. You betcha they will get worse over time.

dpoole

I used to collect Red Lincolns, but I sold them all precisely because of this concern. Have high-grade red copper eventually scared the heck out of me.

TopoftheHill

dpoole, I clicked on that video link of a warning parable.

I'm laughing and crying at the same time....

lusterlover

Perhaps Lance and I are the exceptions - I am primarily a pre-1934 Lincoln collector, and I have many RD early Lincolns. I have never had one turn on me and many I've had since the 80's and 90's. I guess not enough are avoiding RD copper because the price keeps going up on the one's that interest me....

Sweet 1912 Lance!

lkeigwin

I recently sold my high-grade RD wheaties 1935 - 1958 but kept the earlier years. 90% are full red and slabbed in older holders and still covered by PCGS's color guarantee. They were acquired and put in my PCGS inventory before 2010, and have never been cracked or resubmitted.

Many folks express concern about red copper turning but, like @lusterlover's experience, not a single one of mine has changed. No spotting either. They live in a low humidity environment with no significant temperature swings. All of my slabbed coins, including more than 300 bust half dollars, are stored in double row Intercept Shield boxes (which I replace every ten years).

Maybe I've just been lucky.

I did buy an inexpensive '50's wheatie (MS67RD) from GC several years ago, in a newer prong holder. It developed spots almost instantly (within a year), which I attribute to contaminants on the surface before slabbing. I think it is wise to be leery about newly slabbed red copper.
Lance.

Kkathyl

so how does one with over 3,000 coins keep them all it good standing. Goes to show you that Copper Red is Dead.

PerryHall

@lkeigwin said:
I recently sold my high-grade RD wheaties 1935 - 1958 but kept the earlier years. 90% are full red and slabbed in older holders and still covered by PCGS's color guarantee. They were acquired and put in my PCGS inventory before 2010, and have never been cracked or resubmitted.
Lance.

I didn't realize that PCGS made an exception for pre-2010 slabbed copper when they dropped their color guarantee. Are you sure this is the case?

lkeigwin

Yes. The terms, as announced in the fall of 2009, said the copper had to be purchased prior to 2010 and not be sold, regraded or otherwise removed from its holder.
Lance.

PerryHall

@lkeigwin said:
Yes. The terms, as announced in the fall of 2009, said the copper had to be purchased prior to 2010 and not be sold, regraded or otherwise removed from its holder.
Lance.

I believe what you are saying but why wouldn't they honor the guarantee if the slabbed coin is sold? Makes no sense.

oldabeintx

I do believe that properly stored and aged RD copper can hold its color and can be as nice as the example above. However, it nonetheless adds a dimension of uncertainty that I try to avoid by collecting RB and BN coins. Also, there are many beautifully mellowed RB and BN coins that look better to my eye than some of the antiseptic RD coins out there. Of course, price comes into play as well. So for me RB and BN represent a win win win.

lkeigwin

@Kkathyl said:
so how does one with over 3,000 coins keep them all it good standing. Goes to show you that Copper Red is Dead.

Red copper is wildly popular and significantly more costly than RB or BN. Check out the small cent registries for IHC's and Lincoln's. E.g, Stewat Blay's.

I retired my set and it was ranked somewhere near the bottom of the top 20 sets. The best sets are phenomenal and worth a small fortune.
Lance.

lkeigwin

@PerryHall said:

@lkeigwin said:
Yes. The terms, as announced in the fall of 2009, said the copper had to be purchased prior to 2010 and not be sold, regraded or otherwise removed from its holder.
Lance.

I believe what you are saying but why wouldn't they honor the guarantee if the slabbed coin is sold? Makes no sense.

We wondered the same thing around here when the new policy was announced. It was chaotic. I was particularly angry as I had just crossed many NGC wheaties partly because of PCGS's superior guarantee.

The only rationale I can imagine (for the "sold coin" rule) is that PCGS was looking for ways to get out from under the original lifetime guarantee. Over time coins get sold.

It's also interesting to note that this was the last significant downgrade to the PCGS guarantee that PCGS announced widely (the uproar was big). Some years later they quietly altered their guarantee on coins turning in their holders. "Environmental deterioration". We lost the free restoration service at the same time.

Although I was annoyed, I don't blame PCGS. Their guarantee was way too good and way too expensive. Lots of us know the story of the one-and-only MS70RD Lincoln Memorial that developed a spot or two. What did that cost PCGS?
Lance.

Kkathyl

@Ikeigwin you are correct. It was satire. red on black your ok Jack. Red on Yellow your a dead fellow.