@Crypto said:
That just has to be the DuPont coin....
That is not an expression of a reasonable doubt. That is a claim of a fact not in evidence.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@dbldie55 said:
So, if this went to court. Who would be required to prove their point of view? IE: Does this default to being the lost DuPont coin or not.
No. There would need to be clear and convincing evidence that this was the DuPont coin. I can understand questioning the coin, but to outright assume and condemn this coin when it could be one of a couple hundred other coins thought to be lost through attrition is absurd.
@Crypto said:
That just has to be the DuPont coin....
That is not an expression of a reasonable doubt. That is a claim of a fact not in evidence.
Ok that could have been worded a smidge better but in my mind there is 75% ish chance it is DuPont coin.
People forget just how long the 54s has been a famous rarity. It isn’t like joe blow’s granddad bought it as a type piece and got lucky. It isn’t like if it had traded hands in the last almost 100 years it wouldn’t have been accounted for. And if had sat in an old 49ers lockbox for 150 years would it look so processed? I am as suspicious as the finder as I am of NGC proclamation.
I get privacy but even the saddle ridge discovery had a legit dealer come out and say the coins were found around here in these cans and walked us through the conservation process. If a legit dealer said “I looked into the story and they had it and a bunch of other stuff from long ago” or something like that would be something. But we get nothing and I am shocked how “what eves” everyone is about it. People don’t just find New Picassos and the market blindly accepts them. You better show how you got it
But this looks like suspiciously like (being silent for anything can and will be used against you) sake.
If I found it I would get the full story written up, have as many experts chime in and get it into PCGS plastic at a grade low enough that it had a chance of stickering. I would then display it at a major show and offer it to a few power brokers at a premium to avoid auction.
I am suspicious when they skip any of those steps. It will be interesting to watch
@dbldie55 said:
So, if this went to court. Who would be required to prove their point of view? IE: Does this default to being the lost DuPont coin or not.
No. There would need to be clear and convincing evidence that this was the DuPont coin. I can understand questioning the coin, but to outright assume and condemn this coin when it could be one of a couple hundred other coins thought to be lost through attrition is absurd.
Agreed. The coin is innocent until proven guilty.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@dbldie55 said:
So, if this went to court. Who would be required to prove their point of view? IE: Does this default to being the lost DuPont coin or not.
No. There would need to be clear and convincing evidence that this was the DuPont coin. I can understand questioning the coin, but to outright assume and condemn this coin when it could be one of a couple hundred other coins thought to be lost through attrition is absurd.
Agreed. The coin is innocent until proven guilty.
Agreed legally, public opinion is not bound by that.
@dbldie55 said:
So, if this went to court. Who would be required to prove their point of view? IE: Does this default to being the lost DuPont coin or not.
No. There would need to be clear and convincing evidence that this was the DuPont coin. I can understand questioning the coin, but to outright assume and condemn this coin when it could be one of a couple hundred other coins thought to be lost through attrition is absurd.
Agreed. The coin is innocent until proven guilty.
Agreed legally, public opinion is not bound by that.
@dbldie55 said:
So, if this went to court. Who would be required to prove their point of view? IE: Does this default to being the lost DuPont coin or not.
[This is largely aimed at the tin foil hats not you, dbldie55.]
NO, the Dupont owner would have to prove that it was their coin.
Even in that grainy catalog photo, this new coin is clearly lower grade than the Dupont specimen.
The fact that anyone on this board is wiling to assume guilty until proven innocent is a little disturbing. That is jurisprudence turned on its head.
What you have here is not logic or method or numismatic critical thinking. You have selection bias. The only 1954-S that you know about is the Dupont specimen, so you default to that. The fact is that over 200 were originally struck. But the Dupont specimen is the famous one, so your mind goes to that one.
As to why the secrecy - if I were about to cash a $4 million check, I wouldn't advertise my name or address either.
As to why the hurry to market - if I suddenly realized I had a $4 million coin, I would rush it to market and sweat it out until the check cleared.
@dbldie55 said:
So, if this went to court. Who would be required to prove their point of view? IE: Does this default to being the lost DuPont coin or not.
[This is largely aimed at the tin foil hats not you, dbldie55.]
NO, the Dupont owner would have to prove that it was their coin.
Even in that grainy catalog photo, this new coin is clearly lower grade than the Dupont specimen.
The fact that anyone on this board is wiling to assume guilty until proven innocent is a little disturbing. That is jurisprudence turned on its head.
What you have here is not logic or method or numismatic critical thinking. You have selection bias. The only 1954-S that you know about is the Dupont specimen, so you default to that. The fact is that over 200 were originally struck. But the Dupont specimen is the famous one, so your mind goes to that one.
As to why the secrecy - if I were about to cash a $4 million check, I wouldn't advertise my name or address either.
As to why the hurry to market - if I suddenly realized I had a $4 million coin, I would rush it to market and sweat it out until the check cleared.
There are only 3 of them for over 100 years and they are all equally famous. 2 are accounted for, one is stolen. And suddenly a new one pops up processed with no history while just the type of major buyer that coin needs is circling and you believe in miracles. Got it
Only one I know about? I have seen a 54s in hand, have you? You are just the type of fanboy I was referring about
There are only 3 of them for over 100 years and they are all equally famous. 2 are accounted for, one is stolen. And suddenly a new one pops up processed with no history while just the type of major buyer that coin needs is circling and you believe in miracles. Got it
Only one I know about? I have seen a 54s in hand, have you? You are just the type of fanboy I was referring about
The Dupont coin is the only one you know about whose location is unknown since the other 2 are known.
Fanboy? Of whom? NGC? Guess again.
I just actually demand evidence before I make accusations. I know you think that YOU are the one demanding evidence, but you are not. That new coin CLEARLY does not look the same as the Dupont coin in the catalog and so you've latched onto the difference not as proof that they aren't the same but as proof that the coin was doctored.
Frankly, if enough material was removed from the surface, you couldn't determine it to be the Dupont coin even if it was. With only 238 struck, I'd imagine they all came from the same die pair. If they wore it down from an AU55+ to an XF45 and then dirtied it up, there is unlikely to be any markers left.
NGC certified it as genuine and issued a statement certifying that it did not match the Dupont coin. Their reputation is on the line. It's very easy for you to disagree with them without evidence, your reputation is not on the line.
@dbldie55 said:
So, if this went to court. Who would be required to prove their point of view? IE: Does this default to being the lost DuPont coin or not.
No. There would need to be clear and convincing evidence that this was the DuPont coin. I can understand questioning the coin, but to outright assume and condemn this coin when it could be one of a couple hundred other coins thought to be lost through attrition is absurd.
Agreed. The coin is innocent until proven guilty.
Agreed legally, public opinion is not bound by that.
Although it should be. Of what use is due process if we are allowed to treat the acquitted as though they had been convicted?
@dbldie55 said:
So, if this went to court. Who would be required to prove their point of view? IE: Does this default to being the lost DuPont coin or not.
No. There would need to be clear and convincing evidence that this was the DuPont coin. I can understand questioning the coin, but to outright assume and condemn this coin when it could be one of a couple hundred other coins thought to be lost through attrition is absurd.
Agreed. The coin is innocent until proven guilty.
Agreed legally, public opinion is not bound by that.
Although it should be. Of what use is due process if we are allowed to treat the acquitted as though they had been convicted?
When Kato heard the thump on the wall....(what the heck have I just done),,,that sealed the case for me. Any sucker who watched OJ try to put a dried out leather glove on WHILE YOU COULD SEE HIM SPREADING OUT HIS FINGERS to make sure... LOL. Damn good defense team.
@Insider2 said:
When Kato heard the thump on the wall....(what the heck have I just done),,,that sealed the case for me. Any sucker who watched OJ try to put a dried out leather glove on WHILE YOU COULD SEE HIM SPREADING OUT HIS FINGERS to make sure... LOL. Damn good defense team.
It's up on Heritage's auction preview. And, they have more notes as to how the comparisons were done. After reading it, I think it is safe to say that the new specimen is not the Dupont example. (Now, does anyone have an image of the Oct 1962 Scrapbook?)
One thing that somewhat surprised me of the Wolfson auction was that, with a full page (admittedly catalogs were smaller then) description, nothing was mentioned about the coin's physical characteristics. I wonder if they tries finding copies of the catalog that were used during lot viewing which may had added notes for such...
@Insider2 said:
When Kato heard the thump on the wall....(what the heck have I just done),,,that sealed the case for me. Any sucker who watched OJ try to put a dried out leather glove on WHILE YOU COULD SEE HIM SPREADING OUT HIS FINGERS to make sure... LOL. Damn good defense team.
Damn good acting by the juice man.
I don't know, have you ever seen The Naked Gun...?
@Aegis3 said:
It's up on Heritage's auction preview. And, they have more notes as to how the comparisons were done. After reading it, I think it is safe to say that the new specimen is not the Dupont example. (Now, does anyone have an image of the Oct 1962 Scrapbook?)
One thing that somewhat surprised me of the Wolfson auction was that, with a full page (admittedly catalogs were smaller then) description, nothing was mentioned about the coin's physical characteristics. I wonder if they tries finding copies of the catalog that were used during lot viewing which may had added notes for such...
C'mon, you want us to believe NGC and Heritage? Such a fanboy.
And another thread is dynamited off the rails......
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
And another thread is dynamited off the rails......
I suspect if you hadn't responded with emotional indignation the fanboys wouldn’t have piled on. You seem oblivious to your role in this one.
Say what you like but my points are completely valid as are yours. And in my opinion the experts owe a little more than “trust us” when there is a fog of legitimacy surrounding a mega rarity.
This board is literally about and for discussing such things. That and one’s glory days
@Crypto said: "This board is literally about and for discussing such things. That and one’s glory days
I agree, One thing about the boards is that it is fun to be unknown. I did it for a little over a year. It was kind of like being in an elevator in a foreign country and listening to folks chatting in their native tongue thinking you were unaware of everything being said. Unfortunately, much of the fun is over for me now.
I wish a bio was necessary for all the members. I wish I knew the places folks lived in and how they approached this forum as a professional or just a CRH. Replies and opinions between members could be weighed
For that reason do you care to tell us a little about the "glory" you've added to the profession? I believe you collect Trade dollars.
@CaptHenway said:
And another thread is dynamited off the rails......
I suspect if you hadn't responded with emotional indignation the fanboys wouldn’t have piled on. You seem oblivious to your role in this one.
Say what you like but my points are completely valid as are yours. And in my opinion the experts owe a little more than “trust us” when there is a fog of legitimacy surrounding a mega rarity.
This board is literally about and for discussing such things. That and one’s glory days
I think he's referring to the OJ issue - which he didn't raise.
@jmlanzaf said: "I think he's referring to the OJ issue - which he didn't raise."
Actually not. As I read it, he replied to this member's post: "@CaptHenway said: And another thread is dynamited off the rails......"
I take this final comment by @Crypto to be pushing the line: "This board is literally about and for discussing such things. That and one’s [Tom Delorey] glory days"
As a result, I've become very curious as to who Crypto is and what he has contributed to the hobby/profession in his glory days." I do believe his specialty is U.S. Trade dollars (collector, dealer, both?) so he must be in the LSCC and possibly has written articles in their Journal. At least his posts have educated me on that series of coins.
@Insider2 said: @jmlanzaf said: "I think he's referring to the OJ issue - which he didn't raise."
What I meant was that CaptHenway was referring to the OJ issue as being what had dynamited the thread off the rails. Everything else was pretty much on point.
As a result, I've become very curious as to who Crypto is and what he has contributed to the hobby/profession in his glory days." I do believe his specialty is U.S. Trade dollars (collector, dealer, both?) so he must be in the LSCC and possibly has written articles in their Journal. At least his posts have educated me on that series of coins.
I really care little for anyone's "glory days". The entire reference suggests that your best days are behind you and you are contributing nothing new.
And...if you have to tell me how important you are...you probably aren't that important.
@jmlanzaf said: @Insider2 And I've been waiting for you to weigh in on this Dupont controversy...or are you afraid to be called a fanboy?
Already have long ago in the first discussion about the piece. This thread was on a different subject until it was turned into the old discussion about provenance.
@jmlanzaf said: @Insider2 And I've been waiting for you to weigh in on this Dupont controversy...or are you afraid to be called a fanboy?
Already have long ago in the first discussion about the piece. This thread was on a different subject until it was turned into the old discussion about provenance.
@CaptHenway said:
And another thread is dynamited off the rails......
I suspect if you hadn't responded with emotional indignation the fanboys wouldn’t have piled on. You seem oblivious to your role in this one.
Say what you like but my points are completely valid as are yours. And in my opinion the experts owe a little more than “trust us” when there is a fog of legitimacy surrounding a mega rarity.
This board is literally about and for discussing such things. That and one’s glory days
I think he's referring to the OJ issue - which he didn't raise.
Exactly.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
If I found it I would get the full story written up, have as many experts chime in and get it into PCGS plastic at a grade low enough that it had a chance of stickering. I would then display it at a major show and offer it to a few power brokers at a premium to avoid auction.
I am suspicious when they skip any of those steps. It will be interesting to watch
If the owner has reason to believe the coin was stolen, then why would he or she consign it to one of the largest coin auction houses in the world for a major auction scheduled weeks out where tens of thousands of people (including many experts) will scrutinize every little aspect and make comparisons to the DuPont coin? It would seem the opposite of what someone would do if they questioned the coin in anyway. Someone looking to conceal its origins is far more likely to try your approach and dump it off quickly and then run off.
@cameonut2011 said:
I'm sure this will find its way into the Hansen collection.
I would argue against that...
John Brush President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com email: John@davidlawrence.com 2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
@Crypto said:
That just has to be the DuPont coin, I wonder what type of effect the lack of provenance will have on the outcome of the auction. Is no story a net neg when one could spend millions on basically stolen property? Or is there enough to know that it can’t be proven either way, would NGC be liable ?
It is NOT the DuPont coin. NGC compared it to photos of the DuPont coin.
What photos? They should write a point by point Analysis paper with all artifacts imbedded and sign their names to it for all to see.
Anything less is basically the number 2 grading company making a “just trust me” publicity grab with no real skin in the game or risk of peer review.
While they legit coin guys sure, but they are really just guessing too. They are just trying to get mileage out of their guess without the liability of really going on the record.
Why is the onus on the grading service? It isn't their job or problem. They grade coins and are not forensic numismatists.
Because they are the ones who said they think it isn't the same coin and that opinion matters. How much it matters should be based on how much thought they put into it.
@Aegis3 said:
It's up on Heritage's auction preview. And, they have more notes as to how the comparisons were done. After reading it, I think it is safe to say that the new specimen is not the Dupont example. (Now, does anyone have an image of the Oct 1962 Scrapbook?)
One thing that somewhat surprised me of the Wolfson auction was that, with a full page (admittedly catalogs were smaller then) description, nothing was mentioned about the coin's physical characteristics. I wonder if they tries finding copies of the catalog that were used during lot viewing which may had added notes for such...
I asked Bill Gibbs at Coin World to check their copy of the October, 1962 Scrapbook. (Amos Press used to own Scrapbook.)
He says that the "images are very tiny and not at all useful."
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
The physical description of the DuPont coin given (towards the bottom of the tome) is interesting. To Crypto et al., how do you alter a coin struck with strong dentils all around and make the dentils look weakly struck on another?:
XF45 (PCGS estimated grade). Discovered by B. Max Mehl in the 1930s, reportedly from an elderly woman who sold him a small bag of gold coins that had been stored in a bank vault for a long period; unknown intermediaries; probably Earl Barger, who exhibited an 1854-S at the March 9, 1955 meeting of the Chicago Coin Club; Abe Kosoff, purchased at the 1955 Detroit Convention and advertised in the June and July editions of The Numismatist; Samuel Wolfson; Wolfson Collection, Part I (Stack's, 10/1962), lot 448, realized $16,500; Willis H. DuPont; stolen in 1967, never recovered. The raised edge flattens out at I in UNITED, the reverse dentils appear strong all the way around, there is a dark alloy spot at 1:30 on the obverse rim, and there is a small contact mark on Liberty's jaw.
Note: Some numismatists believe "Colonel" Green owned this coin at one time, in addition to the Newcomer example. However, Stack's inventory of Green's half eagles only lists one coin.
XF45 NGC. Recently discovered by a New England collector in 2018 and certified by NGC. The raised edge flattens out just past D in UNITED, the dentils are softly struck from 9 o'clock to 1 o'clock on the reverse, and there is some verdigris below the 4 in the date. The present coin.
Additional Appearances
A. Reportedly, one specimen was sent from the San Francisco Mint to Mint Director James Ross Snowden and another was sent for assay on April 19, 1854.
B. At least two specimens (and possibly more) were paid out to Adams & Company, Express, according to an account in the April 29, 1854 edition of the Mountain Democrat. The Mountain Democrat is the oldest newspaper in the state, published continuously since 1851 in Placerville, California. (NGC ID# 25UN, PCGS# 8260)
I am off work today, so staying out of the heat and doing some reading. I was reading some articles on the Walton 1913. I even watch a film clip from the History channel I think. If you recall, the Walton coin was a controversy around being fake. I like the way that was handle by bring in the experts, collected all the known examples, scans, etc, and lockd themselves in a room until a verdict was determined.
@3keepSECRETif2rDEAD said:
...haters don’t deserve closure...I hope whoever wins this coin, never shows another human soul
But wouldn't it be more fun to just wave it at the haters...
...the high flying eagle draw many arrow...so no...but maybe we could agree that all haters should lose at lease half of their senses...just imagine how frustrated the hater would be if he/she could no longer taste or smell...or see
@Currin said:
I am off work today, so staying out of the heat and doing some reading. I was reading some articles on the Walton 1913. I even watch a film clip from the History channel I think. If you recall, the Walton coin was a controversy around being fake. I like the way that was handle by bring in the experts, collected all the known examples, scans, etc, and lockd themselves in a room until a verdict was determined.
IMO, any QUALIFIED numismatist could take one look at Walton's coin and know it was genuine. This business of being locked in a room of experts with comp coins was unnecessary as IMHO, any one of those "experts" would know the coin was 100% genuine in five seconds without any magnification.
A similar thing occurred when the 1870-S Half dime was discovered. A bunch of Liberty Seated collectors and dealers were throwing good, bad, possibly good, and maybe bad opinions all around the place. Five seconds under the stereoscope and our obviously genuine, naked-eye authentication of that unique coin was confirmed.
If you want some fun, crack out an XF/AU $5 Indian from a PCGS slab and show it around a coin show for opinions.
Comments
That is not an expression of a reasonable doubt. That is a claim of a fact not in evidence.
No. There would need to be clear and convincing evidence that this was the DuPont coin. I can understand questioning the coin, but to outright assume and condemn this coin when it could be one of a couple hundred other coins thought to be lost through attrition is absurd.
Ok that could have been worded a smidge better but in my mind there is 75% ish chance it is DuPont coin.
People forget just how long the 54s has been a famous rarity. It isn’t like joe blow’s granddad bought it as a type piece and got lucky. It isn’t like if it had traded hands in the last almost 100 years it wouldn’t have been accounted for. And if had sat in an old 49ers lockbox for 150 years would it look so processed? I am as suspicious as the finder as I am of NGC proclamation.
I get privacy but even the saddle ridge discovery had a legit dealer come out and say the coins were found around here in these cans and walked us through the conservation process. If a legit dealer said “I looked into the story and they had it and a bunch of other stuff from long ago” or something like that would be something. But we get nothing and I am shocked how “what eves” everyone is about it. People don’t just find New Picassos and the market blindly accepts them. You better show how you got it
But this looks like suspiciously like (being silent for anything can and will be used against you) sake.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
(Most) Dealers arn’t stupid.
If I found it I would get the full story written up, have as many experts chime in and get it into PCGS plastic at a grade low enough that it had a chance of stickering. I would then display it at a major show and offer it to a few power brokers at a premium to avoid auction.
I am suspicious when they skip any of those steps. It will be interesting to watch
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Agreed. The coin is innocent until proven guilty.
Agreed legally, public opinion is not bound by that.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Fair enough.
[This is largely aimed at the tin foil hats not you, dbldie55.]
NO, the Dupont owner would have to prove that it was their coin.
Even in that grainy catalog photo, this new coin is clearly lower grade than the Dupont specimen.
The fact that anyone on this board is wiling to assume guilty until proven innocent is a little disturbing. That is jurisprudence turned on its head.
What you have here is not logic or method or numismatic critical thinking. You have selection bias. The only 1954-S that you know about is the Dupont specimen, so you default to that. The fact is that over 200 were originally struck. But the Dupont specimen is the famous one, so your mind goes to that one.
As to why the secrecy - if I were about to cash a $4 million check, I wouldn't advertise my name or address either.
As to why the hurry to market - if I suddenly realized I had a $4 million coin, I would rush it to market and sweat it out until the check cleared.
There are only 3 of them for over 100 years and they are all equally famous. 2 are accounted for, one is stolen. And suddenly a new one pops up processed with no history while just the type of major buyer that coin needs is circling and you believe in miracles. Got it
Only one I know about? I have seen a 54s in hand, have you? You are just the type of fanboy I was referring about
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
The Dupont coin is the only one you know about whose location is unknown since the other 2 are known.
Fanboy? Of whom? NGC? Guess again.
I just actually demand evidence before I make accusations. I know you think that YOU are the one demanding evidence, but you are not. That new coin CLEARLY does not look the same as the Dupont coin in the catalog and so you've latched onto the difference not as proof that they aren't the same but as proof that the coin was doctored.
Frankly, if enough material was removed from the surface, you couldn't determine it to be the Dupont coin even if it was. With only 238 struck, I'd imagine they all came from the same die pair. If they wore it down from an AU55+ to an XF45 and then dirtied it up, there is unlikely to be any markers left.
NGC certified it as genuine and issued a statement certifying that it did not match the Dupont coin. Their reputation is on the line. It's very easy for you to disagree with them without evidence, your reputation is not on the line.
I am certain that Heritage will address these issues in their auction write up. Or gloss them over...
Although it should be. Of what use is due process if we are allowed to treat the acquitted as though they had been convicted?
Like OJ?
Yes, I actually consider OJ to be not guilty...well, of the killings. He was guilty of the kidnapping/theft.
@Crypto said: "Only one I know about? I have seen a 54s in hand, have you? You are just the type of fanboy I was referring about."
Big friggin deal! What does that have to do with anything? On second thought, may I be your fanboy?
When Kato heard the thump on the wall....(what the heck have I just done),,,that sealed the case for me. Any sucker who watched OJ try to put a dried out leather glove on WHILE YOU COULD SEE HIM SPREADING OUT HIS FINGERS to make sure... LOL. Damn good defense team.
Damn good acting by the juice man.
It's up on Heritage's auction preview. And, they have more notes as to how the comparisons were done. After reading it, I think it is safe to say that the new specimen is not the Dupont example. (Now, does anyone have an image of the Oct 1962 Scrapbook?)
One thing that somewhat surprised me of the Wolfson auction was that, with a full page (admittedly catalogs were smaller then) description, nothing was mentioned about the coin's physical characteristics. I wonder if they tries finding copies of the catalog that were used during lot viewing which may had added notes for such...
Ed. S.
(EJS)
I don't know, have you ever seen The Naked Gun...?
C'mon, you want us to believe NGC and Heritage? Such a fanboy.
And another thread is dynamited off the rails......
I suspect if you hadn't responded with emotional indignation the fanboys wouldn’t have piled on. You seem oblivious to your role in this one.
Say what you like but my points are completely valid as are yours. And in my opinion the experts owe a little more than “trust us” when there is a fog of legitimacy surrounding a mega rarity.
This board is literally about and for discussing such things. That and one’s glory days
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
@Crypto said: "This board is literally about and for discussing such things. That and one’s glory days
I agree, One thing about the boards is that it is fun to be unknown. I did it for a little over a year. It was kind of like being in an elevator in a foreign country and listening to folks chatting in their native tongue thinking you were unaware of everything being said. Unfortunately, much of the fun is over for me now.
I wish a bio was necessary for all the members. I wish I knew the places folks lived in and how they approached this forum as a professional or just a CRH. Replies and opinions between members could be weighed
For that reason do you care to tell us a little about the "glory" you've added to the profession? I believe you collect Trade dollars.
I think he's referring to the OJ issue - which he didn't raise.
@jmlanzaf said: "I think he's referring to the OJ issue - which he didn't raise."
Actually not. As I read it, he replied to this member's post: "@CaptHenway said: And another thread is dynamited off the rails......"
I take this final comment by @Crypto to be pushing the line: "This board is literally about and for discussing such things. That and one’s [Tom Delorey] glory days
"
As a result, I've become very curious as to who Crypto is and what he has contributed to the hobby/profession in his glory days." I do believe his specialty is U.S. Trade dollars (collector, dealer, both?) so he must be in the LSCC and possibly has written articles in their Journal. At least his posts have educated me on that series of coins.
What I meant was that CaptHenway was referring to the OJ issue as being what had dynamited the thread off the rails. Everything else was pretty much on point.
I really care little for anyone's "glory days". The entire reference suggests that your best days are behind you and you are contributing nothing new.
And...if you have to tell me how important you are...you probably aren't that important.
@Insider2 And I've been waiting for you to weigh in on this Dupont controversy...or are you afraid to be called a fanboy?
Already have long ago in the first discussion about the piece. This thread was on a different subject until it was turned into the old discussion about provenance.
Sorry, I missed that thread.
Exactly.
If the owner has reason to believe the coin was stolen, then why would he or she consign it to one of the largest coin auction houses in the world for a major auction scheduled weeks out where tens of thousands of people (including many experts) will scrutinize every little aspect and make comparisons to the DuPont coin? It would seem the opposite of what someone would do if they questioned the coin in anyway. Someone looking to conceal its origins is far more likely to try your approach and dump it off quickly and then run off.
I would argue against that...
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
Yeah. If I were Hansen I'd be working on the Pogues for their gorgeous AU59
Because they are the ones who said they think it isn't the same coin and that opinion matters. How much it matters should be based on how much thought they put into it.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Do anyone know the real deal on the Pogue's 1822 and 1854-S Half Eagles? Are they off the market?
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
I asked Bill Gibbs at Coin World to check their copy of the October, 1962 Scrapbook. (Amos Press used to own Scrapbook.)
He says that the "images are very tiny and not at all useful."
TD
...haters don’t deserve closure...I hope whoever wins this coin, never shows another human soul
But wouldn't it be more fun to just wave it at the haters...
https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-half-eagles/half-eagles/1854-s-5-xf45-ngc/p/1278-28001.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
The physical description of the DuPont coin given (towards the bottom of the tome) is interesting. To Crypto et al., how do you alter a coin struck with strong dentils all around and make the dentils look weakly struck on another?:
I am off work today, so staying out of the heat and doing some reading. I was reading some articles on the Walton 1913. I even watch a film clip from the History channel I think. If you recall, the Walton coin was a controversy around being fake. I like the way that was handle by bring in the experts, collected all the known examples, scans, etc, and lockd themselves in a room until a verdict was determined.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
...the high flying eagle draw many arrow...so no...but maybe we could agree that all haters should lose at lease half of their senses...just imagine how frustrated the hater would be if he/she could no longer taste or smell...or see
IMO, any QUALIFIED numismatist could take one look at Walton's coin and know it was genuine. This business of being locked in a room of experts with comp coins was unnecessary as IMHO, any one of those "experts" would know the coin was 100% genuine in five seconds without any magnification.
A similar thing occurred when the 1870-S Half dime was discovered. A bunch of Liberty Seated collectors and dealers were throwing good, bad, possibly good, and maybe bad opinions all around the place. Five seconds under the stereoscope and our obviously genuine, naked-eye authentication of that unique coin was confirmed.
If you want some fun, crack out an XF/AU $5 Indian from a PCGS slab and show it around a coin show for opinions.