Is the boom in searching for minor varieties a sign of strength or weakness in the coin market?
291fifth
Posts: 24,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
In recent months there has been a big increase in threads relating to real or supposed minor varieties. Does this trend indicate strength or weakness in the coin market? Has the price of top quality material now reached the point where everyday collectors are priced out of the market and now seek to find their own very cheap treasures by looking through rolls and bags as was done in the 1960s?
All glory is fleeting.
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To me it indicates an influx of new collectors who are searching rolls, bags and pocket change - and new collectors will translate - in time - to a better market. New collectors believe there are treasures to be found (and, there are, to some extent). As they grow in knowledge, they will seek coins in other venues. Initially though, they will enjoy the fervor most of us once experienced. Cheers, RickO
I don't see any increase in interest in minor varieties. Even many of the threads here have been started by people of questionable goals.
Its a healthy and competitive time for variety seekers. The internet, and several new publications, and yes, the budget of many drives the search. I doubt if anyone who searches for varieties regardless of denomination, does not wish the "old days" of ebay were not still here when fewer folks were doing the searching. Given what some coins command its a great way to make some money which in turn allows us to upgrade our sets. Its great for the hobby as anyone with any budget can do it.
WS
I'd like to start cataloging the 1964 proof quarter reverse "VAM"s (engraved L/R wing, L/R tail feathers, all feathers both wings full tail, eyebrow, eagle eye etc). I think it'd be fun and searching mint sets is easier on the eyes. I just got another $100 of copper and there's some fun stuff but no shebangs, minor unlisted varieties and errors nothing to write home about.
It couldn't hurt the market to get some of these found before they're all melted like hundreds of tonnes of silver was.
I dont think it has anything to do with the market or average collectors being "priced out." Roll searchers that are new to the hobby have historically been apt to see "images in the clouds." That is to say, it is very hard for general collectors to distinguish between mechanical doubling and a true doubled die. This is very frustrating to variety specialists, as it almost ensures that the niche market will never really catch on.
On the other side of the coin, searching for varieties, however minor they seem, is essentially free. Whatever coins you brought home from the bank can be returned or spent without losing money. It is also a nice alternative to looking for silver, which has long since dried up.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I would also add that if it was not for the roll searchers, many here and the market in general, would not have varieties to add to their sets. The roll searcher is not only the supplier, they are often the discoverer.
WS
Now this is what I like. I'm doing it for the fun of it with Flying Eagle cents. I've listed my classified varieties per the Snow book in the showcase in my sig line, but I have at least 20 more that are different dies. There is just no doubling or anything that Rick would deem noteworthy of adding as a Snow variety. I do it just because I enjoy it.
To each his own, but it has zero interest to me.
Given enough magnification and analysis,, and some of the pictures are approaching it, EVERY single con ever made is different from any other coin, due to infinitesimal die wear, press vibration and pressure, blank stamping variation, etc. If you took 50 consecutive coins from the same die set and press, every single one would be unique for some point on the coin. Therefore, every coin is a unique variety.
I do not think Cherry Picker has room for 27 billion items.
I guess the answer to the OP's question depends on whether people are doing it as a desperate, last attempt to find something of value (showing weakness), or if they're taking an increased interest in a specialized niche within the hobby (showing strength).
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I do not see the common coin searching phenomena that we typically see on this forum as any sign of strength.
Personally, I don't think interest in a specialized niche is ever an indication of strength, or weakness. It simply doesn't translate into broad-based collecting. That's why it is a specialized niche.
And, frankly, even if "struck through grease" became a major collecting area with people paying exorbitant prices for the biggest blob of grease they could find, it wouldn't push the price on CC Morgans or Merc dimes at all.
If you want a perfect illustration, look at the stamp market. It is in horrible condition overall. However, true rarities keep setting records at the same time that most material is down to 10-15% of catalog value - even after they dropped the catalog price! The only thing that is good for the market is broad-based interest.
Hey, if a bowtie fantastic can't create a coin boom, what ever will?
As I was mentioning to a few dealer friends at Long Beach
last week, it seems when the I-Phone came out about 10 years
ago, everyone took photos of their food, and re-sent them to
friends.
Based on what I see in my email, today, everyone is taking
photos of their pocket change, and emailing them to me,
or posting them here and on other coin chat rooms.
And, having a 1982-D SMALL Date copper cent selling
for $18,000 certainly hasn't helped. Every 82-D Cent
of any composition and date size is shoved in our faces
as 'the rare one I read about'.
Also, most non-collectors don't realize that coins look
different depending on the year they were minted,
and they don't know that a worn or overused die is
common, or that stained or flattened coins are not
errors as released from the Mint.
So you're saying you DON'T want pictures of my pocket change? And you call yourself a coin dealer!!!
I have always had cherry pickers, and there always will be cherry-pickers. Until, of course, they try and sell, then there are always a few less pickers.
As a dealer of varieties (minor and major) on eBay and an ANACS show rep, I can say that I've seen an uptick in hammer prices on the stuff I sell (mainly 20th century variety coins). At shows, I'm also seeing a lot more people at the ANACS table with varieties that either want to submit them or are needing confirmation of the ones they have found.
And maybe this alleged boom in searching for minor varieties is nothing new. Roger Burdette posted two letters from over 100 years ago recently -- one with someone finding raised bumps on the edge of their dollar, another wanting a bounty on a "recalled" 1909 VDB cent. Quill, ink, and the slow boat to the offices of the Mint were replaced by phone cameras and instant access to message boards.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
In my opinion it's all "related" ( belonging to the same family, group, or type; connected )
Coin collecting....based on that assumption... it is my opinion that it adds strength to the coin collecting community.
This sounds like a Longacre question.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
But you rarely post anymore.
The search for minor varieties has been with us for more than a century. Ask any large cent collector about Newcomb and Sheldon numbers.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
On the negative side, if there is a boom it may simply be due to an influx of "treasure hunters", who are all about the score and will lose interest without expanding their scope. But, we've seen this before in other forms - a bunch of folks get into coins as a money-making activity for a time, and then leave when prices decline or they just get bored and move on to something else. On the plus side, certainly there will be treasure hunters who become serious collectors just as there are investors who become serious collectors. On balance, I say the more action the better.
What do you mean by questionable goals? I think varieties are great and I am not alone. I think it's a good sign!
I disagree with this statement......it's really kind of silly.
It is merly the last Frontier and perhaps the most intriguing chapter coin collecting has to offer.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I think this is correct.
I mean that people like Coinside7 have been posting pictures of pocket change and refusing guidance on the nature of errors. Those people appear to possibly be trolls, not actual variety hunters.
I totally agree with this statement. People like Coinside7 are just wanting to find "something" different ….. probably to make a fast buck.
I could not agree with you more. Minor die varities are contrived rarities, especially dime varieties.
"Contrived" is a subjective term.
And dimes are not any different than other coins with die varieties,
although they may have a large number of listed varieties.
Normally people into die varieties will use die pairs to limit the number of categories.
Die states are where it can get nearly infinite as @mustangmanbob describes.
Sometimes it is difficult to separate the two, though.
As for the original question, I don't see any particular increase in the popularity of searching for die varieties.
I do see frequent posts on this forum from a few rookies who think they might have found something rare in a damaged circulated coin.... I don't count those posts with much weight in terms of the original question.
I feel it is an indicator of interest in the hobby (and potential profit) by novice collectors. How "the hobby" handles these expression of interest will affect whether coin collecting grown or shrinks.
IF there were an actual boom, maybe. I don't see one. But, in general, narrow interests don't help the broader market (widgets).
I think there are two kinds of variety collectors. The ones searching pocket change and bank rolls are hopefully having fun with spending any money. Good for them.
Then there are the folks seraching for varieties among non-circulating coins. This includes folks building a Sheldon set and those cherrypicking minor Mercury dime varieties. Sometimes these folks spend a fair bit of money. I do think to some extent this represents the last frontier. All of the classic sets have been completed by others, some many times over. Thanks to the registry sets, we can all see exactly what has been done. Now it could take millions of dollars to beat a top ranked set. For most folks that is impossible. But, it is still possible to make a standout achievement by building a complete set including minor varieties.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
The "minor" varieties...especially Dimes.....was aimed at me. jerseycat is very feeble minded and for some reason likes to attack me.
Most of the Dime varieties are not minor and very easy to see.
It's funny he never mentions Capped Bust Halves. The differences in most of those die varieties are very minor.
But I'm not knocking them.......I would actually love to do those if I had the money!
I'm afraid my belief is that the slabbing, beaning, and sheldon scaling have run their course and we are going to need something else. @dpoole wrote many years ago about the maturation of the registry sets and how that would affect the entire hobby.
The variety market is fickle and hard to gauge.
I think it peaked in 1992-1995, after Breen's Encyclopedia and the first couple volumes of the CPG came out.
There was almost an explosion of interest and not enough coins to fill the hunger of the new variety collectors.
During that time, I was sending many thousands of coins to ANACS, as they attributed varieties that the big 2 would not.
Any coin, any series, that I could get a doubled die on, would be at least a $30-50 item. I'm talking about stuff like 1963 proof nickels, etc. Stuff that was cheap. I just had to dig it up...and it wasn't hard because very few were looking.
Lincoln and Jefferson RPMs were hot sellers also.
VAMs flew out of the display case.
Kennedy varieties were easy sells too.
There weren't as many people doing what I did back then, and I think that makes a huge difference.
Probably less than a dozen people doing what I was doing back then, many hundreds if not thousands doing it today.
More supply, lower prices.
It is all good, any means of getting more collectors into the hobby is a good for the future. I also think the TPG costs are daunting for beginning collectors and have probably turned some away.
The efforts of variety collectors have accomplished much in understanding our coinage, which does benefit the generalists. Most of the old equipment has not survived the early Mints, and reverse engineering of coins by variety collectors enables an understanding of how the coins were minted.
I see it as new collectors having fun on a budget. One day they will move on the bigger and better coins, in till then let them do what they need to some will catch on and win that will put the hook in them, some will not. As for the OP question more rookie collectors cant be a bad thing. But that is just me dumb Type2 thinking.
Hoard the keys.
no but it has coin> @jmlanzaf said:
Trolls are pretty funny sometimes
sing guidance on the nature of errors. Those people appear to possibly be trolls, not actual variety hunters.
They certainly are. And the reaction of other members to trolls is also very funny.
The concern I have had is that trolls are sometimes spoiling the place for newbies who are sometimes mistaken as trolls.
I think minor varieties are a temporary fad. Especially minor dime varieties. These obscure DDs and other minor varieties artificially raise the price of otherwise common and ordinary coins. Of course it's a boon for dealers and tpgs who can capitalize on variety collectors.
Sing guidance? In public ? Thats a lot of obscure words to rhyme up on short notice
,
I find it fun to look at the coins in my collection to see if I can determine if it is a minor variety or the Vam number. If I do find one I don't go sending it in to be attributed (although I did find a VF 1937 double die Washington quarter that I paid 6 dollars for- had that one graded) . But it does add to my enjoyment of the hobby.
You can take them back to a finite number of dies, therefore collecting by die variety, somewhat practically. There are always some people who take anything farther than the norm. I used to know a guy that would stay up counting reeds until he passed out.
We get it you don't like Dimeman , now you are just belaboring the point
Plus the fact that yet again jerseycat doesn't know what he is talking about! Varieties have been a part of collecting for a long time......way before myself.