Best Of

@breakdown said:

Jmlanzaf, maybe I am misreading your posts but to me there is a huge difference between 1) your selling raw coins with an accurate description and 2) a factory that buys up a lot of details coins with clear flaws that will never straight grade, describe them as Gem BU +++ and crank up the glare in their photos.

I have no easy solution for stopping this business model that skirts the edges of what is legal and ethical, but I don’t have to like it. Too many rookie buyers feel burned, get a bad taste in their mouths and leave the hobby for good.

I don't "like it", but there's no way to enforce it. 99% of cracks outs are unlikely to even be easily identifiable as being the same coin.

@MsMorrisine said:
doesn't goldbully have the stats on these? i'll await his input

Here are the 45 PR69DCM privy FH Au coins from Stack Bowers

$26k to a high of $34k(#188) for PR69DCAM
The person that bought lot #188 has to be wondering why he/she pushed that bid button so high.

@NJCoin was correct in stating......"You can Google it, and with a little searching find the SB pages with the results for every lot. Basically, given the relatively high price for all of them, and the scarcity of 69s as compared to 70s, there was not a huge price difference between the 2. Maybe around $5K. Prices were mid $20K to mid $30K for the 69s, and low to mid $30K for most of the 70s."

Of the 185 PR70DCAM's, most were mid $30k

Lot #6 to lot #36, the trend was $38k to $41k

Lot #4 and lot #5 went for $46k

After lot #36($38k) the trend was $33k to $36K

Lots of $33k's and $34k's to be had at that point.

The low 70 was $32k for #162.
For some reason lot #100 went for $38k

Once the auction got to #214 the trend was $38k and up.

Lot #1 $440k
Lot#230 $90k

Stacks Bowers Link

@Onastone said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@NJCoin said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@NJCoin said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@NJCoin said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@NJCoin said:

@ProofCollection said:

@NJCoin said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@NJCoin said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@NJCoin said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@NJCoin said:

@wondercoin said:
‘’My guess is if the seller asked $33,000 or $34,000 BIN, they would sell it on eBay just fine and make a nice profit.’’

What’s the profit % when the “2” rated buyer (hypothetically) claims he opened the box and inside was an entirely different coin worth next to nothing and reverses his credit card payment on you (for which there is a high probability the seller loses the case).

I’ve been selling on eBay now for 25+ years and there isn’t a snowball’s chance in h-ll I would ever consider selling a $50,000 coin under current eBay terms and conditions. If others want to take that chance, more power to them!!

Just my 2 cents.

Wondercoin.

This ^^^^ is exactly what I'm talking about!!! Not to say things don't move. Just sayin' it's not the right place, and sellers likely lose a lot more than they make up for with a lower seller fee. Due not only the the occasional fraud, but also to prospective buyers like me sticking to more reputable and established platforms like GC, HA and SB for high value items.

Actually, this is the OPPOSITE of what you are saying. You're saying that the BUYER wouldn't want to do the deal. Wondercoin is saying that the SELLER wouldn't want to do the deal.

Actually I already, very clearly, said I wouldn't do it on eBay on either side.

@NJCoin said:

@Goldminers said:

@NJCoin said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@NJCoin said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@NJCoin said:

@ProofCollection said:

@NJCoin said:
There you go! As suspected, regardless of what the actual value is, eBay is NOT the venue for a profitable quick flip of something like this procured from some place like SB.

What venue would be? It's probably the place with the widest reach and publicity you can find. The ebay listings are very likely to come up in Google search results. How many dealers are active acquiring inventory on ebay or check ebay for coins to place with their customers? Probably tons. How many listings have been taken down and due to an off-site deal?

GC. HA. SB. With all due respect to @jmlanzaf, I'd never trust eBay with a 5 figure transaction, either as a buyer or a seller, given all the sketchy things that seem to take place there on a regular basis.

Obviously, YMMV. But SB is certainly not "the place with the widest reach and publicity you can find." And yet, to the great shock and amazement of several of our esteemed members, they managed to move 230 nearly identical items for the US Mint in a few short hours, grossing $8.23 Million.

If eBay was the ideal venue for these, why do you think the Mint didn't just dribble them out, either all at once or a few at time, on eBay? Probably because their net would have been a lot closer to the $6-12K each many of the experts here predicted if they had done so.

People thinking they were emulating what @jmlanzaf did with his comic book by scooping these up at $25-35K each on SB, thinking they were pulling off a "retail arbitrage," are about to learn the hard way that there is no such thing with such an expensive, widely publicized sale. People who wanted them knew just where to find them on December 12th.

Absolutely no one needs to pay a 50%+ markup to buy them a few weeks later at "the place with the widest reach and publicity you can find." Sure, eBay is very well known and widely available to anyone with an internet connection. So is Walmart, but Walmart is not the place most people think of when thinking of making mid 5 figure purchases. Which is probably why most luxury consumer goods are not sold through them, despite their wide footprint in the US.

Regardless of your preferences, lots of 5 figure coins sell on eBay all the time.

Understood. Which is why I prefaced my post by saying "with all due respect" to you.

If that holds true in this case, the seller soliciting @Goldbully should be getting slammed with acceptances, given how modestly they are now pricing their offer above the highest result achieved in the SB auction, after taking into account their seller fees and the fact that the Mint will never be auctioning 230 of these at one time and one place ever again. Since lots of 5 figure coins sell on eBay all the time.

I'm not sure that's the right price. Failure to have an offer accepted is usually about the price not the fact that the coin is on eBay... at any $ value.

Of course. Thanks for stating the obvious. The fact is that the seller paid $26K for the coin at SB, and will probably be lucky to get that, after fees, on eBay, while other 69s went for more at SB.

You do love to argue, and I am always thrilled to engage. If eBay was the right venue for items like this, there would be no GC, let alone HA or SB. It's ALWAYS about price. If you can get a higher price on one venue versus another, that's what makes it about the venue.

You can, should and will do you. Me too. I happen to think eBay is too sketchy to trust 5 figure transactions to, whereas I don't feel the same way about GC, HA or SB.

While there is obviously a market on eBay for expensive items, I doubt that I am alone in my feelings. If true, that makes eBay a less than ideal venue for things like this. Which is but one reason the retail arbitrageurs are having a difficult time with these.

My guess is if the seller asked $33,000 or $34,000 BIN, they would sell it on eBay just fine and make a nice profit.

The eBay fees are significantly lower than all the other venues that you mention, especially with a store. The total selling price at auction might be higher elsewhere, but the net to the seller after fees may not be any better at all.

JM keeps reminding you that eBay fees are actually quite low and the current problem for the arbitrageurs is not the venue, but their high asking prices and I agree with him.

Which is all well and good. My point is simply that, as a buyer of something this expensive, I'd be far more comfortable dealing with a reputable auction house than with whoever is on the other side of an eBay transaction. Same thing as a seller.

Now, obviously, people can and do engage in high dollar value transactions on eBay. I just don't think it's the right place for something like this, even if your fees as a seller are lower.

You usually get what you pay for. Sellers desperately reaching out to prospective buyers only proves my point. The Mint had no problem moving 230 units in less than 3 hours. This seller can't move one in how many days and counting now?

I reach out to prospective buyers every day. So does Heritage, Stacks, GC and just about every major coin seller. It's about sales not desperation.

If you say so. I've never received a message from you, and communications I've received from the major auction houses have been solicitations to give them consignments, not to buy, so I don't know for sure whether or not your or their communications are "desperate." But I do know that this one is:

You are clearly not an active buyer. I get emails from Heritage, Stacks and GC every week showing me coins that i "might be interested in".

I can't send random people offers their eBay but I can send offers to people watching my coins or, sometimes, looking at my coins. And I do.

Here's this week's "desperate offers"

Great!! The "desperate offers" you show as examples are merely offers, not "desperate" ones.

OTOH, the offer @Goldbully posted does indeed smack of desperation. At least to me.

"I'm making this offer once." 🤣🤣🤣

"Otherwise I'm just leaving it up indefinitely." 🤣🤣🤣

"I don't know if you'll see a lower offer as low than this." 🤣🤣🤣

When I read it, it reminded me of Cleavon Little's threats in Blazing Saddles to kill himself if the crowd threatening him didn't back off.

"I'm only going to make this terrific offer once, and, if no one accepts it, I'm going to keep trying to sell the coin until someone buys it. Maybe at a lower price, maybe not." 🤣🤣🤣

Very compelling, and, at least to me, smacking of foolish desperation in an attempt to create a sense of urgency to give the seller a 50% premium to what they paid for a $26K coin two long weeks ago. Because it's one of only 230, and if you don't act NOW, you might never again have the opportunity to give them a score. 🤣🤣🤣

Compare it to whatever normal offers you want. This is a desperate one. If you can't bring yourself to ever agree with me, once again we'll just have to agree to disagree. Merry Christmas!!!

On their face, the statements from the seller project strength and strong hands. Any desperation is concocted in your head, but that is a trend with you. Had I bought one to keep, I still may have thrown it up on ebay for a few weeks just to see if I could make quick profit so that could be what these other sellers are doing too. Except coinaddicts and some other who are known dealer/flippers.

Agree to disagree. Strength is just leaving the listing up, without saying anything or reaching out to anyone with a 15% discount and an admonition that it's a one time only offer, and to act now before it's too late.

Weakness is listing it right away, at a stupid premium, and then dropping the price almost instantly, but for a limited time only, with the caveat that "I don't know if you'll see a lower offer as low than this." Because I'm reasonably sure a 69 will become available at some point in the future for far less than $38,250.

Asking for the moon and being willing to settle for less is not, in my mind, a sign of strength. Reaching out to anyone who looked at the listing with stupid threats about what they are going to with the coin if it is not sold at the "one time only offer," comparisons to the most expensive example sold at auction (at a 30% premium to the purchase price of the item being offered), and then insisting how a 12.5% premium to the most expensive one (and a 50% premium to the purchase price of the coin actually being offered) is a great deal, because the seller has inflated, fictitious selling costs, is to me an extreme sign of weakness, desperation and plain old foolishness.

As if someone with the means and desire to drop $40K+ one a coin like this lacks any common sense or general awareness of the market. The seller wants to get out at a profit now, out of fear @coiner might be right. The fact that they are being a pig while trying to do so is not a sign of strength.

Only stupidity. And weakness. Because, as in real estate, pricing something unrealistically high, and then being forced to drop the price as the listing ages, is absolutely a bad strategy, and a sign of weakness and distress that typically only causes prospective buyers to await further price drops, rather than inducing the desired call to action before the item disappears forever.

YMMV, but the threat to leave the listing up indefinitely if the offer was not accepted was an empty threat that would only hurt the seller. Just like Sheriff Bart in Blazing Saddles.

A "desperate" offer would be open to negotiation or closer to break even. There is nothing desperate about making an offer to an INTERESTED party at $12000 over purchase price.

If you say so. Exploding offers with a threat to keep trying to sell the item if it does not sell smells very desperate to me. The fact that the seller is being a piggie while doing it does not make it any less desperate. Just less likely to result in a sale.

Listing at $45K was clearly a mistake. Dropping that by 15% in a matter of days, while still representing a significant profit (assuming any sucker bites), reeks of desperation. As will the next price drop when it inevitably comes, because this seller clearly is not strong, and is not willing to sit and wait for the market to come to them.

It is the significant, quick price drop, plus the tone and language used in the offer, that makes it desperate in my eyes. You are just focusing on the price, and the fact that the seller has not yet accepted reality, to conclude that they are not desperate.

"Not desperate" to me would mean leaving the listing as-is, or pulling it altogether if you cannot get your price. Not big price drops accompanied by explosive language.

To me, that reeks of desperation. Albeit desperation to make a 45% score. I'm not sure why you apparently believe unreasonable optimism with respect to pricing is mutually exclusive with desperation to make a sale, because it is not.

As evidenced, not by the fact that follow-up offers were made, but the language embodied in those offers. Have you ever used such language in an attempt to provoke a sale? If not, why not? Because it would be more likely to provoke snickers than a sale, as is the case here? And maybe because it would reek of desperation, which us to see. So, desperate

🙄

Really? You think the offer was exclusive to @Goldbully, and wasn't extended to everyone who clicked on the listing, or at least added it to a watchlist?

If so, why does eBay excitedly announce "A few other interested buyers also received this offer -- it won't last long. Hurry and take advantage right away!" at the top of the offer "Because you showed interest in this item, the seller sent you this private offer."?

That's not how offers work. It very well could have gone to more people, but it is not automatically sent to all viewers. You have a tendency to just fill in the blanks in your knowledge. As a data point, I had a comic with 180 views and a dozen watchers and when I sent an offer, it only went to 7 people. I'm not sure what the algorithm is, but we don't know how many people got it.

Edited to add: By the way, the offer always pretends multiple people got it even if i only send it to one person. They want you to think that you have to grab it before someone else does.

Thanks for filling in a few blanks for me. I do appreciate it.

You did not, however, answer my question regarding the language you use in your offers, and how it compares to what @Goldbully received.

Also, if you want to make a sale, why would you restrict how many people receive your offer? Because you're willing to discount for some folks, but not others, because their money is less green? 🤣

I don't restrict the offer. I don't even know who I'm sending it to. EBay restricts to whom I can send the offers.

By the way, I've been watching that auction for almost a day and have not received any offers.

I generally don't add much in the way of text to the offers because I send hundreds of offers and 95% of them don't result in a sale so it isn't worth the time. I did send an offer with a recent comp this week to someone who then bought the 24,000 comic I mentioned earlier, but that is unusual for me.

Which comic was it?

Action #2 CBCS 9.2 restored. Professionally restored extensively, but it looked brand new. Gorgeous book.

@Ronsanderson said:
I only see two cases where this could occur.

First, if the dies are shipped to the branch mint without mint mark (as was normal), and the branch mint forgot to punch in the mark. This would be hard to catch, but could be identified if the same reverse appeared on coins with and without mint marks.

Second, the mint mark could get plugged up with grease, or the fields around it were ground down by die polishing. This might be easier to track down. Look for weak mint marks that are barely present. Perhaps they soon faded away completely! Then use the reverse and see if that reverse also appears on any coins without mint marks.

Given the volume of coins generally produced by Philadelphia, this could be a Quixotic quest. If we had extensive photographic databases, there might be a way to perform some pattern matching and get this automated.

Back then the mint marks were put on the dies in Philadelphia. All four dies show a mint mark in their earlier die states.
Only two of the dies were affected by grease, after other things happened.

Best wishes for all 🙂

@epc wrote;

Above, you also say you thought there is a no-crack state of V-2. Do you have coins/photos of such examples?

I checked and almost all of them have very small cracks in most locations visible in high grades like AU and above.
This includes some with the RPD visible.

Here is Frank's V-2 EDS EF-40 which does not seem to have any cracks, and it has the RPD visible.
But it is an EF-40 so the surfaces are not as nice as AU and above.

Here is Frank's V-2 VLDS MS-62 with RI bases joined and cracks in the dentil cud area above T1E1.
It does not seem to have the vertical die break in the leaf between DIME and ER.

Stack's 57 collection was an accumulation put together by a hoarder from circulation. Fairmount represents more like the holdings of a government or bank. That's my guess.

Thirty to forty years ago, when I was more directly involved with several large auctioneers, numismatic and non numismatic, I can remember hearing word of a huge hoard of gold in Venezuela. Some negotiations took place back then but the coins didn't come north. I think that they finally have been sold. The excitement is fading and prices are declining.