Are there any coins that are unknown in GEM?

braddick · September 2, 2015 12:39PM

There's even an MS69 Chain Cent. Can't imagine there are no known GEM coins within a date/type.
Yet, perhaps there is?

Know of any?

mercurydimeguy · September 2, 2015 12:48PM

Lots of coins don't even have Unc examples. Look at some of the $5's from mid 1860's.

I have an 1869 $5 in XF40, and the finest graded by PCGS is AU58.

DIMEMAN · September 2, 2015 12:56PM

There are a few Seated Dimes with no uncs much less Gem (65). And lots of Bust dimes.

oih82w8 · September 2, 2015 1:23PM

Regular issue coins...yes, as mentioned above. Variety coins...absoluetly! I have a few Top Pop varieties that are in the AU50 to 58 range with none finer.

Gem UNC could be referred to as MS65 nowadays...I have been wrong before.

Boosibri · September 2, 2015 2:55PM

As MercDimeGuy said, many many of the gold $5's and $10's fit this bill, especially the no motto's

rhedden · September 3, 2015 12:06AM

1858-S, 1859-S, 1860-S, and 1861-S Seated quarters are a classic example. The 1859-S and 1861-S are population zero coins in MS in the PCGS population report; 1858-S and 1860-S are pop. 1 in MS, and they're MS62 and MS61 coins, respectively. There may be a few other examples in the NGC pop. report, but I don't ever recall seeing a Gem of any of these dates.

Zoins · September 3, 2015 12:09AM

<< There's even an MS69 Chain Cent. Can't imagine there are no known GEM coins within a date/type.
Yet, perhaps there is?

Know of any? >>

Certainly the 1798 'Small Eagle' half eagle is unknown in GEM

MrHalfDime · September 3, 2015 12:12AM

Certainly there are many dates within some nineteenth century and earlier series for which there are no known GEM examples. But I think the OP was asking about a design type for which there are no known GEM examples. I can't think of any half dime series for which this would be true. Even the 1792 half disme includes an MS-68+ example.

Zoins · September 3, 2015 12:18AM

<< I think the OP was asking about a design type for which there are no known GEM examples. >>

Does "within a date/type" mean a design type or a date for a type?

BillJones · September 3, 2015 12:58AM

<< Certainly there are many dates within some nineteenth century and earlier series for which there are no known GEM examples. But I think the OP was asking about a design type for which there are no known GEM examples. I can't think of any half dime series for which this would be true. Even the 1792 half disme includes an MS-68+ example. >>

I think that the "official grade" for the 1802 half dime is no higher than AU. That's not a "Gem." Old time collectors graded the best 1802 half dimes as Choice EF-45.

MrHalfDime · September 3, 2015 2:56AM

"I think that the "official grade" for the 1802 half dime is no higher than AU. That's not a "Gem." Old time collectors graded the best 1802 half dimes as Choice EF-45."

True. But the 1802 is not a design type; it is a date within the Draped Bust half dime series. And there are several Draped Bust half dimes in GEM.

keyman64 · September 3, 2015 3:30AM

A little different than your question but there are plenty of varieties
that are unknown in GEM or even Mint State sometimes!

Until I Cherrypicked it in MS65 raw, the best known example was AU58.
18 months later and after years of searching by many people, it is
still the only known Mint State example. 1941 DDO Mercury Dime.

kiyote · September 3, 2015 4:05AM

2004 Lewis and Clark commem dollars. They're all MS69/70.

roadrunner · September 3, 2015 4:50AM

<< 1858-S, 1859-S, 1860-S, and 1861-S Seated quarters are a classic example. The 1859-S and 1861-S are population zero coins in MS in the PCGS population report; 1858-S and 1860-S are pop. 1 in MS, and they're MS62 and MS61 coins, respectively. There may be a few other examples in the NGC pop. report, but I don't ever recall seeing a Gem of any of these dates. >>

And those same coins above now in low mint state holders were considered AU's 20-25 years ago. The 1842-0 sd quarter shows a couple of MS coins, the Norweb 63 and a 61 coin I believe. I saw the Norweb coin in 1988 and graded it AU, along with 98% of the other bidders in the room. I would say there are no true uncs yet slabbed of the 1859-s, 1860-s, 1861-s quarters. There might be a real unc hiding out there that the owner doesn't want to bring to the surface....but not likely. I'd have to see the 58-s's to render an opinion on those. Most of those are probably inflated as well. That date is a lot more common than the other 3 early S mints. Without seeing all the slabbed MS 1843-0, 1847-0, 1849-0, 1851-0, and 1852-0 quarters I wouldn't bet off hand that most of those are true uncs either. Most of them are pretty marginal. With early O mint seated quarters, if you don't start with a MS65 or MS66 grade odds favor some friction on that coin somewhere.

In the half dimes the 1870-s was graded AU in the early 1980's. Now it's a 64. I've never seen that one up close.

I'm not so sure that I'd agree that any of the slabbed unc 1870-cc halves are actually that.

If one uses the term "gem" then there are dozens of seated coins that don't yet "publicly" exist in those grades. A simple coin like the 1857-0 half dollar has a dozen or so MS64's, and a single MS65. I've seem most of those and can assure you that NO gem of that date is currently slabbed, regardless what the label says. I don't think there's even a PQ64 either....just average to marginal 64's. And that's an "easy" date....lol.

For gem seated type, I'm not convinced there's a gem 1839 no drapery half out there. Yes, there are some MS65's graded. I haven't seen most of those. There is a MS67 graded. I've seen that one and wouldn't grade it higher than 64. Based on its last time at auction, it brought weakish MS65 money.

topstuf · September 3, 2015 5:03AM

No matter the pop or how rare a given date, I still gravitate to a higher grade of same...type.

jdimmick · September 3, 2015 5:10AM

I agree with rr,

I have not seen a truly UNC 70-cc half, the 49-o UNC seated quarter is not unc.

Also, until the eliasberg 70cc quarter surfaces again, there isn't one of those either

coindeuce · September 3, 2015 5:15AM

There are no known examples of Gem 1943 Bronze Lincoln cents. The finest graded is a MS-64 1943-D.

MrHalfDime · September 3, 2015 5:18AM

"In the half dimes the 1870-s was graded AU in the early 1980's. Now it's a 64. I've never seen that one up close."

I have had the privilege of studying the unique 1870-S half dime up close and personal a few years ago when the Goldberg's auctioned it. And it was, is, and likely always will be an AU. For a unique coin, grade hardly matters.

roadrunner · September 3, 2015 5:27AM

<< "In the half dimes the 1870-s was graded AU in the early 1980's. Now it's a 64. I've never seen that one up close."

I have had the privilege of studying the unique 1870-S half dime up close and personal a few years ago when the Goldberg's auctioned it. And it was, is, and likely always will be an AU. For a unique coin, grade hardly matters. >>

Grade still matters, even if unique. Otherwise we'd be saying that a Good-4 would be worth the same as a MS65 for a unique specimen. While grade doesn't change its uniqueness it does affect value and desirability.

An MS64 1804 silver dollar brings considerably more than an AU55. And while 1804 dollars are not unique, they carry a lot more "oomph" to the market than a unique 1870-s half dime. And even with a unique coin, it should bring considerably more in gem vs. circ. There's something about gem or near gem coins that the top collectors and dealers love. If the unique 1873-cc NA dime (an MS65) were an AU do you think it would fetch near as much as it has as an MS65? I certainly don't. The 1815 $5 gold is "unique" in collector's hands. Imagine what that would bring if it were an MS 64 or MS65? (ie a lot more than an AU). As a MS64/65 you can start to favorably compare with other major rarities that are graded 64-66 (ie 1894-s dimes, 1913 Lib nickels, 1794 dollars, 1804 dollars, 1885 and 1884 trade dollars, 1876-cc 20c pieces, etc.). The 1933 MS65 $20 Saint when auctioned over a decade ago fetched over $7 MILL....as the "uniquely" authorized specimen in collector's hands. Had that been an AU do you think it would have fetched even over $5 MILL at the time? I don't. Maybe not even $3 MILL. I'd have much rather had a MS65-67 1927-d Saint of which must survivors are unc than a "uniquely monetized" AU 1933 Saint. Being the finest graded or fitting into a gem set makes a lot of difference...at least for high end, deep pocket sets.

MrHalfDime, thanks for that input on the 1870-s half dime A MS64 grade and a sticker wouldn't make me want to pay $2 MILL for it. But maybe in an AU55 holder with a gold sticker.

roadrunner · September 3, 2015 5:52AM

<< I agree with rr,

I have not seen a truly UNC 70-cc half, the 49-o UNC seated quarter is not unc.

Also, until the eliasberg 70cc quarter surfaces again, there isn't one of those either >>

CAC agrees with you on the 70-cc's. They haven't stickered a 70-cc quarter or half higher than AU55. They must have some high standards. Odd that their only stickered 70-cc half higher than VF-35 is a lone AU53. There are a pair of 70-cc quarters stickered at AU55. There are only 2 stickered 1870-cc halves above VG-10! Apparently owners are in no rush to send them in. I once owned a lovely orig. Fine 12/15 and that coin is certainly not represented yet. Paid $175 for it, flipped it for $225 to a dealer and thought I was doing good.

tradedollarnut · September 3, 2015 6:40AM

Meh. AU coins have circulation marks - don't see any such on the 1870-S. What I do see is a bit of strike weakness that a novice might mistake for wear.

winky · September 3, 2015 8:41AM

<< There are a few Seated Dimes with no uncs much less Gem (65). And lots of Bust dimes. >>

There's a ton of variety seated dimes with no unc's.

Regulated · September 3, 2015 9:29AM

<< Meh. AU coins have circulation marks - don't see any such on the 1870-S. What I do see is a bit of strike weakness that a novice might mistake for wear. >>

Agreed.

Getting back to Federal coin types, I would hazard a guess that there are no Gem Beaded Border Liberty Cap Cents. Other than that, I can't think of any. Look at Pioneer Gold for a bit and you'll find numerous coins that don't exist in Gem as a type...

Analyst · November 3, 2015 9:14AM

Hedden: "1858-S, 1859-S, 1860-S, and 1861-S Seated quarters are a classic example. The 1859-S and 1861-S are population zero coins in MS in the PCGS population report; 1858-S and 1860-S are pop. 1 in MS, and they're MS62 and MS61 coins, respectively."

Roadrunner: "And those same coins above now in low mint state holders were considered AU's 20-25 years ago. ... I'd have to see the 58-S's to render an opinion on those."

Last week, 1858-S, 1859-S and 1860-S quarters were sold. I really believe that the PCGS graded MS-62, Richmond-Gardner 1858-S is strictly uncirculated. Do any forum members think otherwise?

1858-S Seated Quarters Are Extreme Condition Rarities in Grades Above Very Fine!

WTCG · November 3, 2015 1:28PM

Some CC gold dates are unknown in UNC, much less gem.

roadrunner · November 3, 2015 1:52PM

Last week, 1858-S, 1859-S and 1860-S quarters were sold. I really believe that the PCGS graded MS-62, Richmond-Gardner 1858-S is strictly uncirculated. Do any forum members think otherwise?

I don't believe in a lot of the lower MS slab grades. The 61's and 62's of today are the AU's of 20-30 years ago. Maybe the 58-s 25c is a market graded unc. I won't question that. But, it's certainly not fully mint state or fully unc. It would have to have full unbroken field luster (an unbroken cartwheel) and no high point rub to be considered an "all there" unc.

The original question was on gem coins. If I look at seated quarters, I'd say 20% of the 120 or so dates in that series don't exist in gem MS65 or better (approx 20 coins).

Analyst · November 13, 2015 11:43AM

Roadrunner: "I don't believe in a lot of the lower MS slab grades. The 61's and 62's of today are the AU's of 20-30 years ago. ...

I cannot accept this statement in its entirety. There is more than one set of reasons why a coin might end up being graded 61 or 62. A strictly uncirculated coin with hairlines and contact marks of a certain magnitude may end up being graded 61 or 62 by PCGS in the present. Indeed, such grading events often occur. The Richmond-Gardner 1858-S quarter has always been uncirculated, IMO. It would not or should not have been graded AU thirty years ago!

Roadrunner: " Maybe the 58-s 25c is a market graded unc. I won't question that. But, it's certainly not fully mint state or fully unc.

I examined the Richmond-Gadner 1858-S in three different years, including on two different days in October 2015. I am very serious about my research and my articles. When did Roadrunner carefully inspect this specific coin?

1858-S Seated Quarters Are Extreme Condition Rarities in Grades Above Very Fine!

Roadrunner: "The original question was on gem coins. If I look at seated quarters, I'd say 20% of the 120 or so dates in that series don't exist in gem MS65 or better, approx 20 coins.

I was not the one who broadened the subject matter of this thread. In any event, I agree with Roadrunner's statement regarding gem Liberty Seated quarters. There are also some Liberty Seated dimes and silver dollars that do no exist in gem grades. I do not remember ever seeing a gem 1846 business strike dime. I doubt that a gem 1874-CC dime exists. There are many 'dates' of 19th century gold coins that do not exist in gem grades. Think about Type Two Liberty Head Double Eagles!

I sort of figured that Braddick was primarily referring to or intended to refer to entire design types, not specific dates.

Regulated: "Getting back to Federal coin types, I would hazard a guess that there are no Gem Beaded Border Liberty Cap Cents. Other than that, I can't think of any. Look at Pioneer Gold for a bit and you'll find numerous coins that don't exist in Gem as a type..."

As far as I know, there is just one gem 1796 'No Stars' quarter eagle.

Although the Hayes-Pogue 1808 quarter eagle is certified as MS-65, some experts grade it as 64+. Nevertheless, it seems to be the finest known by a substantial margin.

The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, Part 4: 18th Century Rarities Lead First Auction

PCGS classifies 1793 Beaded Border Liberty Cap cents as a separate design type. Not everyone agrees. 1793 Liberty Cap cents are very similar to 1794 and 1795 Liberty Cap cents, which certainly exist in gem grades.

insightful10@gmail.com

rhedden · November 13, 2015 12:58PM

Last week, 1858-S, 1859-S and 1860-S quarters were sold. I really believe that the PCGS graded MS-62, Richmond-Gardner 1858-S is strictly uncirculated. Do any forum members think otherwise?

This discussion got a little off track because the original topic was supposed to be coins that exist in GEM. "Gem" means MS65 or better in old school ANA terminology, not MS-60 or MS-63, or even super-shiny MS64+ CAC.

I have not seen the MS62 1858-S quarter in person either, but it may be a strict Unc. for all I know. There is an NGC MS-62 of this date in the Heritage archives that sure looks like a strictly BU MS62 to me. The 1859-S sold last week at Heritage for $9,988 was a PCGS AU50. There are no MS60 or finer 1859-S quarters in the Heritage archives or in the PCGS pop. report. The same statement holds for the 1861-S quarter. There is one example of the 1860-s quarter graded MS61 by NGC and it is CAC-stickered. I have not seen that one in person either. Nonetheless, there are clearly no examples of any of these dates known in GEM MS65 or better.

Analyst · November 18, 2015 12:29PM

R. Hedden: This discussion got a little off track because the original topic was supposed to be coins that exist in GEM.

In my post right above Hedden's last post. I acknowledged that the subject matter has been broadened and I tried to steer it back in the direction that the originator of this thread presumably intended, though I felt it worthwhile to respond to points made by others.

R. Hedden: I have not seen the MS62 1858-S quarter in person either, but it may be a strict Unc. for all I know. There is an NGC MS-62 of this date in the Heritage archives that sure looks like a strictly BU MS62 to me.

I am disappointed that R. Hedden did not read my article or my post above. The Richmond-Gardner 1858-S was NGC graded MS-62 and crossed into a PCGS holder. It is the finest known, as I said. The Gardner III sale was held on May 12, 2015. It is both the NGC-62 and the PCGS-62 1858-S listed in the Heritage archives.

1858-S Seated Quarters Are Extreme Condition Rarities in Grades Above Very Fine!

An interesting question is whether 1793 Liberty Cap Cents should be classified as a design type that is separate from the Liberty Cap Cents of 1794 to '96. As is made clear in various part of the PCGS web site, including PCGS CoinFacts, the 1793 Liberty Cap Cents have a beaded border while the 1794 to '96 Cents have dentils. Are there other significant differences?

As Regulated said above, there are no gem 1793 Liberty Cap cents known. The PCGS-64+ Eliasberg-"High Desert" coin is generally believed to be the finest known.

Are there any coins that are unknown in GEM?

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