How Can PCGS Promote / Condone Doing This to Coins?
dragon
Posts: 4,548 ✭✭
I suppose the title is really a rhetorical question of sorts as obviously CU is a for profit corporation that thrives on generating revenues from services they provide, however promoting dipping out and re-slabbing attractive and original coins for a fee seems like it should be a big taboo for an industry perceived top tier grading service IMO.
I just watched this PCGS clip: PCGS Clip and was really surprised to see the subject coin in the promotional video (a WLH which looked to have toning very similar to that classic "Eliasberg Collection" type of toning being dipped away to reveal just another washed out and stripped generic white coin......and PCGS somehow feels this is a really good idea and a service to collectors and the hobby?
I remember years ago when NGC came out with their version of "chemically improving coins for a fee" service, and they had a color brochure promoting their new service and showing numerous before and after shots of coins they felt they had improved. The one coin in that brochure I still remember was this original looking proof Liberty gold piece that had that nice original slightly cloudy look to the fields and creamy cameo devices as their "before" pic, and this washed out and flat looking stripped coin as their "after" pic. At the time I thought what they were doing was borderline criminal, and I now find it rather disturbing that other large firms have thrown their hats in the 'dipping for dollars' ring.
I just watched this PCGS clip: PCGS Clip and was really surprised to see the subject coin in the promotional video (a WLH which looked to have toning very similar to that classic "Eliasberg Collection" type of toning being dipped away to reveal just another washed out and stripped generic white coin......and PCGS somehow feels this is a really good idea and a service to collectors and the hobby?
I remember years ago when NGC came out with their version of "chemically improving coins for a fee" service, and they had a color brochure promoting their new service and showing numerous before and after shots of coins they felt they had improved. The one coin in that brochure I still remember was this original looking proof Liberty gold piece that had that nice original slightly cloudy look to the fields and creamy cameo devices as their "before" pic, and this washed out and flat looking stripped coin as their "after" pic. At the time I thought what they were doing was borderline criminal, and I now find it rather disturbing that other large firms have thrown their hats in the 'dipping for dollars' ring.
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First they file a lawsuit against people that engage in such activities, then shortly thereafter they turn it into a business model!
Really Stone? Adding putty or tooling is the same as exposing the original surface?
edited out the offending quote.
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PCGS is only doing what you ask them to do. Get mad at the owner of the coin, who can do whatever he wants with his property.
They say they will not restore a coin just to make it white... then they (PCGS) do just that... I don't get it!
<< <i>PCGS is the biggest hypocrite in numismatics regarding coin doctoring.
First they file a lawsuit against people that engage in such activities, then shortly thereafter they turn it into a business model! >>
+1
Dipping is doctoring. There's no need to dip common coins. If its a coin that has less than a few hundred examples then conserving the coin is one thing. Dipping the original skin off a coin that there are millions of examples in existence is only an exercise to improve value because TPGs reward luster not true originality.
Once a coin is removed from the environment that imparted the toning there's no reason to "save the coin" and dip off the surface layer of toning - that is for all intents and purposes - actually protecting the coin from further damage.
<< <i>PCGS is only doing what you ask them to do. Get mad at the owner of the coin, who can do whatever he wants with his property. >>
Yes, but my understanding of the restoration service was that PCGS also used their judgment when it came to doing this and didn't blindly follow the submitter's orders. While the toning on the original coin is not stunning by any stretch of the imagination, it also original toning that isn't unsightly. They should have chosen a truly ugly coin to show the benefit, rather than one that some will see as having been harmed by restoration.
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<< <i>I much prefer the unrestored version of the coin in the promo video. >>
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Might as well have showed the stripped-and-dipped Norweb '93-S Morgan. Yeeech.
<< <i>Agreed, that was a pretty poor choice of an example to show. Um, the "before" was much nicer.
Might as well have showed the stripped-and-dipped Norweb '93-S Morgan. Yeeech. >>
Oh yes, that famous superb gem 1893-S dollar. Nearly forgot about that one, and the number they did on that coin, LOL.
That Norweb 93-S should forever stand as the poster child against 'coin improvement for a fee' services IMO.
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<< <i>Most of the market wants "white". It is just a business decision. >>
Wondering how many of Ricko's family members make up that market
<< <i>the web page that describes the service says there is a ten dollar evaluation fee. The submission form says there's a $25 evaluation fee. Hmmm. >>
a quick call to PCGS Customer Service: there's a problem on the submission form (which will be corrected), so the correct fee is on the website at $10 per coin.
If restoration is your thing, that's not a bad fee.
Not my cup of meat, personally.
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Coins being doctored today are probably just getting a check up from being doctored in the past.
If I buy it, it is mine to do as I please whether you approve or not.
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<< <i>
<< <i>the web page that describes the service says there is a ten dollar evaluation fee. The submission form says there's a $25 evaluation fee. Hmmm. >>
a quick call to PCGS Customer Service: there's a problem on the submission form (which will be corrected), so the correct fee is on the website at $10 per coin.
If restoration is your thing, that's not a bad fee. >>
The $10 is for them to look at the coin and reject it for restoration, not to actually do any restoration "work".
The fees for the actual restoration are 4% of the coins final "graded value" or $25 -- whichever is greater.
What I found a bit odd was that the fee structure assumes (in a sense) that the coin will always be able to be slabbed problem-free after being restored. That's often not the case, as "restoration" can remove surface contaminants that reveal substantial problems underneath. I think they should be more straightforward and say that the cost is still $25 even if the coin is found to have major problems underneath. Yes, I know that's what their intent is, but I think the way it's presented is misleading -- sometimes you simply can't know if a coin can be "restored" until you have attempted.
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<< <i>You will never stop the dip and strippers unless you buy up every single coin and then you can make up the rules.
The money controls the game. >>
A FORMER ANA PRESIDENT recently presented an enlightening "coin preservation" (aka "doctoring") demonstration at my local coin club. It was quite a chemistry lesson. In one of his demos he showed us a nicely-toned, AU-ish Liberty Seated Quarter in a 2x2 that he had priced at ~$300-400 as I recall. It had been for sale in his B&M for a few months and had not sold. He dipped it out until white and confidently said it would now sell ... and even said he liked the "new look" so much that he might raise the price by $50 or so!
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<< <i>I have not used the service but love the fact that it is available. There are plenty of XF and up coins that have minor ugly issues. If I can buy the right coin at the right price and have professional restoration done to make it beautiful, that is a win in my book! >>
Salutations and commendations. Common sense and reasoning will always overshadow emotion and drawn lines in the sand. It's obviously about coins and people just can't get the "money aspect" and the definition of "doctoring" out of their heads. DIPPING, although I don't like it, has a place in the "trade". It always has and that's not going away.
First and foremost, after the hobby…. a dealer is tasked with giving collectors what they want. A viable service exists for dealers like me who just HATE dipping them.
For that reason, alone I agree with being glad the service exists. I don't like the dip, but the business is business.
"for crying out loud", like my mom would say as she taught me about finances… and "it' ain't NO SKIN off your nose", as dad always said.
I'm sure corporations have lots of meetings before such "restorative services" were added to the companies "list of services" , as it were.
Some of us (me too sometimes), guys need to lighten up with the "lynch mob" mentality.
2). When NGC first began conservation with NCS they stressed the evaluation process as vital to the results they could obtain. That seems to be the same for PCGS as evidenced by the linked video.
3). NGC/NCS has never divulged the chemicals or the processes they use at NCS and to my knowledge neither has PCGS: I don't expect that either will in the future. There is every reason to believe that the chemicals/process have been extensively tested and that those performing the work are trained, so there is little/no risk.
4). Whether or not conservation methods such as the one in the linked video constitute "cleaning" is a personal debate but the Hobby has seemingly decided it either is not cleaning --- or ---is an acceptable form cleaning.
4). By agreeing with the current day's approach, Market Grading, each of us has given tacit approval to what goes on at PCGS and NGC. To that end, if we expect PCGS to grade our coins and then be responsible for any mis-judgement we have stepped to the wrong side of the slippery slope. Is it realistic to expect them to correct things when they have been fooled without also offering that service for a profit?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>the web page that describes the service says there is a ten dollar evaluation fee. The submission form says there's a $25 evaluation fee. Hmmm. >>
a quick call to PCGS Customer Service: there's a problem on the submission form (which will be corrected), so the correct fee is on the website at $10 per coin.
If restoration is your thing, that's not a bad fee. >>
The $10 is for them to look at the coin and reject it for restoration, not to actually do any restoration "work".
The fees for the actual restoration are 4% of the coins final "graded value" or $25 -- whichever is greater.
What I found a bit odd was that the fee structure assumes (in a sense) that the coin will always be able to be slabbed problem-free after being restored. That's often not the case, as "restoration" can remove surface contaminants that reveal substantial problems underneath. I think they should be more straightforward and say that the cost is still $25 even if the coin is found to have major problems underneath. Yes, I know that's what their intent is, but I think the way it's presented is misleading -- sometimes you simply can't know if a coin can be "restored" until you have attempted. >>
This may have been discussed before, but who or what is used to determine the final "graded value"?
Also, if they determine that the coin is eligable for restoration, wouldn't the final grade be that of the slab that was originally holding the coin?
<< <i>
<< <i>Agreed, that was a pretty poor choice of an example to show. Um, the "before" was much nicer.
Might as well have showed the stripped-and-dipped Norweb '93-S Morgan. Yeeech. >>
Oh yes, that famous superb gem 1893-S dollar. Nearly forgot about that one, and the number they did on that coin, LOL.
That Norweb 93-S should forever stand as the poster child against 'coin improvement for a fee' services IMO. >>
In fairness, I don't think anyone at PCGS did that deed -- but someone sure stripped the irreplaceable life out of it.
Some coins really need this. No reason to sentence a coin to being substandard, if it has reversible issues.
If I were to take that WLH, put a picture on these boards as a NEWP, and ask for opinions, there would be a whole lot of people who would say:
"I don't like that type of toning"
"You should have held out....better coins are available"
"Just doesn't do anything for me"
"Looks AU to me"
The poor thing would probably sit in some dealer's inventory for a few years, until he broke out the dip on his own...and possibly screwed it up.
I don't think I'm being overly pessimistic, either. If I am, I invite you to post pictures of your similar WLH's right here....
Now....assuming you agree that this coin would probably end up being dipped at some point anyway, would you rather it be by experienced professionals? Or by the first guy with enough nerve to say, "Oh, I'll give it a shot! A 10 minute soak aughta clean this right up!" *shiver*
soapboxes can be dangerous.
-----BTW, a member in this thread now owns that medal.
One thought on the substance of restoration: It might be a good idea to distinguish between the aesthetics of -- how to put this? -- efforts to improve coin appearance and the basic legitimacy of such efforts. I remember how shocked I was when, years ago, a for-real coin grading expert first explained to me that dipping (when not done too blatantly) had in fact been acceptable to the TPGs from their inception -- that they'd immediately recognized that refusing to slab any dipped coin would create too much anger and lost investment. Then, a couple years later, I was again jolted out of a naive assumption that only silver -- not copper -- coins were dipped. My own response has been to put a premium on original surfaces and never again to buy anything old and blast white. I'd only suggest that now, with the #1 TPG providing more legitimacy to . . . coin improvement . . . we all might reflect a bit longer before buying a coin that's, say, 150 - 200 years old and has no trace of toning. Unless, of course, that's what you want!
I avoid dipping under other circumstances. If a coin is toned, I leave it alone. If someone wants to do differently, well, it's his coin, not mine.
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They use " industry accepted technics " to restore these coins which I think means dealers
and not collectors. Well I am not in the industry I am a collector and any form of technic
that is used to change the surface of a coin is not accepted by me. Using chemicals to make
a coin white or to give it color is not accepted by me.
I have used the restoration service several times to remove PVC or verdigris. And with excellent results. Twice I submitted coins with problem toning; an MS bust half with an unfortunate dark drift mark I hoped could be lessened and an early Lincoln with odd silver spotting on the surface that appeared to be growing. Both times PCGS declined to do the work. I think they made the right call.
Lance.
<< <i>When the restoration service was first introduced I remember the sense that the focus would be on coins with problems...that PCGS wouldn't necessarily dip a coin because its owner didn't like toning (unless it was terminal toning or otherwise very unattractive). Do I recall incorrectly? Has something changed?
I have used the restoration service several times to remove PVC or verdigris. And with excellent results. Twice I submitted coins with problem toning; an MS bust half with an unfortunate dark drift mark I hoped could be lessened and an early Lincoln with odd silver spotting on the surface that appeared to be growing. Both times PCGS declined to do the work. I think they made the right call.
Lance. >>
If you look near the bottom of this page, at the "Restoration Do's and Don'ts", it does state they will not dip a coin simply to make it white. Implication being, they will only dip for "problems", (which I'm not clear on, besides terminal toning??):
Link
I think the intent is still as you stated above. "Fix problems"....which again may make the WLH example a rather poor one. It wasn't attractive, but was it really a problem? Can't say....
They're my coins, and I like their look. They're not forcing anyone to restore their coins and most coins aren't restored anyway.
They have a service people find valuable, why not promote it?
If you don't like a coin's look, don't buy it.
So what's the beef? I'm missing something.
As much as I dislike dipping…
This is similar to a "hazing" incident. (no spam intended) Merely perspective.
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<< <i>Agreed, that was a pretty poor choice of an example to show. Um, the "before" was much nicer.
Might as well have showed the stripped-and-dipped Norweb '93-S Morgan. Yeeech. >>
Let's keep the facts straight please. The abortion on the Norweb '93-S was performed ATS, but even so the head honcho over there bought it and has kept it off the market, so it is presently irrelevant to this discussion.
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