What has happened to the coin hobby?

PTVETTER · July 28, 2014 9:41AM

I have noticed something here and other places.
More and more people are more interested in making money than collecting coins.
This will be the down fall of the hobby.
Greed has NO place in the coin collecting hobby.
Just my view,.

Duke9163 · July 28, 2014 9:46AM

I agree

BillJones · July 28, 2014 9:50AM

This gets into the "bigger fool" theory. If the only people who are making a market are investors and speculators who are buying and selling among themselves, the market will collapse. Collectors are the people who sustain markets. If they are driven out by the speculators by unrealistic prices, the game will be over. This is what happened to the "old commemorative" coin market

Justlooking · July 28, 2014 9:50AM

Well ... you need money to buy coins. I think finding hidden value is part of the fun. When I found a 1931-D Lincoln in my piggy bank when I was a kid, I couldn't believe it was worth $3.50. The value is part of the thrill.

oreville · July 28, 2014 9:54AM

Pat,

i do not think it is as bad as you think.

But what made you come up with this thought all of a sudden?

MrHalfDime · July 28, 2014 9:55AM

<< This gets into the "bigger fool" theory. If the only people who are making a market are investors and speculators who are buying and selling among themselves, the market will collapse. Collectors are the people who sustain markets. If they are driven out by the speculators by unrealistic prices, the game will be over. This is what happened to the "old commemorative" coin market >>

So true. And, if I am not mistaken, this is exactly what happened to the Dutch tulip market in the 1630's. He who does not study history is doomed to repeat it.

cupronik · July 28, 2014 9:57AM

Don't you think coin collecting has been on downward slope for many years, demographically?

LindeDad · July 28, 2014 10:06AM

What happens when the mint makes to meet flippers desires? Hint look at 1936 and the Postal Service a few years ago.

Hope it is just a cycle.

Wabbit2313 · July 28, 2014 10:09AM

I am certain there is not a single dealer doing this to lose money. Always has been the way it is, and will always be. Now, with eBay, everyone is their own dealer when they sell, and they are happy when they make a few bucks, as they should be.

shorecoll · July 28, 2014 10:15AM

I think that you are not quite correct...the discussions we have here tend to emphasize the greed aspects. The vast majority of collectors I don't think are this way, but you are in a shop setting so maybe you know better than me. I also believe greed has always played some part, although maybe to a lesser extent. Did people save 1,000's of 1960's proof sets for the heck of it or because they thought they would go up in value "some day". Maybe quick flip greed is worse, but that may because it's possible. If ANA ever goes back to a true collector focus, there are things that could be done, but that won't happen anytime soon.

Type2 · July 28, 2014 10:33AM

1% crazy.

Sonorandesertrat · July 28, 2014 10:41AM

"More and more people are more interested in making money than collecting coins."

This has been the case for as long as I have been collecting coins (more than 40 years).

Sunnywood · July 28, 2014 10:44AM

I don't care about making money from coins. However, I prefer not to lose money. Paradoxically, I have sometimes found that the best way to not lose money is to stretch and pay more for the very best quality coins that you can afford. Great quality is always in demand. Paying a lot, even what seems extreme, is sometimes great protection against decline.

Having been away from the hobby for five years, I do feel things are somewhat insane. I wonder if the super-high-end market is sustainable. And this is relevant to me as I am spending a lot and buying coins in that upper atmospheric layer ... it feels thin like vapor or ether sometimes. I remember the 1989 coin crash ... I do worry about it. BUT ... I just love owning the very best, most beautiful coins. And in any world, you have to pay up for that privilege.

Sunnywood

ms70 · July 28, 2014 10:45AM

Since I came back after about an 8 year hiatus, I have to agree. I see coins priced multiple times past what was realized in auctions and price guides, just hanging on dealer
websites and eBay. I didn't see it that much years ago. I guess the dealers are waiting for the novice enthusiastic collector.

Coppercolor · July 28, 2014 10:46AM

A) I don't believe PCGS Forum Members are representative of the average collector so our impression is skewed

Most grassroots collectors I see (at coin clubs, shows) are still pretty unsophisticated compared to forum members

C) Most of them are collecting for collecting sake, not with a primary eye on profit, though you wouldn't know it by talking to them

MrEureka · July 28, 2014 10:46AM

Greed has NO place in the coin collecting hobby.

Apparently, it does.

And "greed" hasn't slowed us down yet. In fact, just the opposite. Greed has fueled the growth of the hobby, every single step of the way.

ms70 · July 28, 2014 10:50AM

<< Great quality is always in demand. Paying a lot, even what seems extreme, is sometimes great protection against decline....... And in any world, you have to pay up for that privilege. >>

Then put these coins up for auction and see what happens. I guarantee you won't break even.

RedTiger · July 28, 2014 10:52AM

<< I have noticed something here and other places.
More and more people are more interested in making money than collecting coins.
This will be the down fall of the hobby.
Greed has NO place in the coin collecting hobby.
Just my view,. >>

I disagree. Greed is what drives the dealer side of the hobby, and the grading services. Greed is also what got a good percentage of beginners into the hobby during the 1950s, 60s and 70s. The lure of finding a coin at face value that is worth 5x or 10x face value or more, is what got many a young person interested. So many collectors (not me) are vest pocket dealers now. To quote Michael Douglas' character Gordon Gecko, "greed is good." For goodness sakes, the hobby is about collecting pieces of metal, often precious metals, used for business transactions. It is naive and silly to talk down greed in the role of numismatics. Greed is front and center and by itself is not a bad thing.

There has always been a core group that never sells or very rarely sells. I am in that group. I don't think a person could characterize this group as being motivated by greed. Yes, there are some collectors that flip their coins for profit, that are part time dealers, that chisel away on every purchase to get a few more points. Virtually every active dealer is motivated by profit. As much bad press as dealers get on this forum, I believe that they are the life blood of the hobby. If the dealers all shut their doors, the hobby would be much, much worse off. Yes, there are a small percentage of bad dealers will sell their own mother if there is enough profit to be made, and a larger group that will take advantage when they see an open door and brush that ethical line with whitewash. Still, the money making motive is what keeps coins moving.

ms70 · July 28, 2014 10:58AM

There's a difference between greed and making a living. And I think rarity & history are more alluring to YN's than flipping for profit.

Tiny · July 28, 2014 11:02AM

Ya, it ain't the Whitman Blue penny, nickel, dime books hobby like any of us over 55, 64 my self, grew up with.
No more raw coins graded by the coin shop guy and no more finding Morgan , Peace , Indian Head ,
Old Lincolns , Buffalo , Standing Liberty (member finding those in change) and Walking Liberty, well just
no silver coin just the mast produced modern coins. Reverend you Preaching to the Choir I think with this crowd.
My wife found a book at a garage sale Saturday copy right 2005 or 2007 tilted something like, how to make money
in rare coin and bullion and not loose it like 95 % of the people.

I'm with your view, money money

MrEureka · July 28, 2014 11:05AM

Greed is also what got a good percentage of beginners into the hobby during the 1950s, 60s and 70s. The lure of finding a coin at face value that is worth 5x or 10x face value or more, is what got many a young person interested.

Call it greed if you must, but I call it fun. The thrill of the hunt is far more valuable than the cash that most of us pocket.

RedTiger · July 28, 2014 11:06AM

<< There's a difference between greed and making a living. And I think rarity & history are more alluring to YN's than flipping for profit. >>

I think you are wrong. My local club stopped doing the educational section of the meeting, because members found it boring. Who was the most bored? The kids at the meeting. Most U.S. coins, even 98% of so-called key dates are common. Rarity is not a driving factor for anything a young person can afford to buy. If that was it, they would collect tokens, die-varieties, or foreign. Again, basically zero interest in those by the young ones at the local meeting.

If anyone wants to post specific references to "excessive" greed vs. making a decent living or making a respectable profit have at it, but it is a fine line and many a dealer will cross it, when the door is open.
/edit to add: It has almost always been that way, some dealers will cross the ethics line to make an excess profit. That hasn't changed in decades. Also, I don't believe most on this forum are flippers or profiteers. That theory sounds like a pile of malarky, just as much as the greed theory. Yes, there are deeks that look to sell their coins at a profit, and chisel on the buying price, but there is a rather large core group that never sells or rarely sells (I am in that group). If I recall correctly from the last such forum survey, more than half the forum, is in the rarely sells, never sells group. Now, the most active posters, yes, they tend to be more active on the sell for profit side. However, that makes sense, because they have to be online to monitor their transactions, so will post more often than the never-sell group.

ms70 · July 28, 2014 11:14AM

I think the vast majority of adults here would find a coin club meeting boring. I love coins but not that much. And YN's are excited about the hunt to find a rare coin, not buy one.

magikbilly · July 28, 2014 11:19AM

I see this in all my hobbies as you all do. I simply can not find anyone who wishes to sit and discuss Hiroshima blast patterns for 6 hours or the likelihood of Swan Hunter and Wigham Richardson importing 300 Palestinian carvers to work on Mauretania when the best work was done in house and the most famous rooms were done by Lord and Turner or Mellier. But, talk of profit flows easily.

Eric

TwoSides2aCoin · July 28, 2014 11:27AM

In 1979 the U.S. Mint introduced the small dollar featuring a woman with a " bun" hair-do.

coinbuf · July 28, 2014 11:32AM

<< A) I don't believe PCGS Forum Members are representative of the average collector so our impression is skewed >>

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner! If you only go by what you read on this forum, which is highly skewed towards dealers and flippers/investors and those who have so much kool-aid their eyes are swimming, then yes I can see how the OP could reach your conclusion. There are still folks out there filling holes in albums with their kids and grandkids and buying the $10-$25 raw coins, I see them everytime I swing by the local show. You just don't see that demographic represented in forums like this very often.

bidask · July 28, 2014 11:34AM

<< This gets into the "bigger fool" theory. If the only people who are making a market are investors and speculators who are buying and selling among themselves, the market will collapse. Collectors are the people who sustain markets. If they are driven out by the speculators by unrealistic prices, the game will be over. This is what happened to the "old commemorative" coin market >>

Will it happen to " colorful "Morgans too?

Sonorandesertrat · July 28, 2014 11:44AM

<< 

<< This gets into the "bigger fool" theory. If the only people who are making a market are investors and speculators who are buying and selling among themselves, the market will collapse. Collectors are the people who sustain markets. If they are driven out by the speculators by unrealistic prices, the game will be over. This is what happened to the "old commemorative" coin market >>

Will it happen to " colorful "Morgans too? >>

Ouch. Maybe I should dump (er, reluctantly sell) my Ex-Sonnier coins before the deluge.

Sunnywood · July 28, 2014 11:46AM

<< 

<< This gets into the "bigger fool" theory. If the only people who are making a market are investors and speculators who are buying and selling among themselves, the market will collapse. Collectors are the people who sustain markets. If they are driven out by the speculators by unrealistic prices, the game will be over. This is what happened to the "old commemorative" coin market >>

Will it happen to " colorful "Morgans too? >>

Well, I sold my toned Morgans about five years ago figuring that market had peaked, yet the demand for and interest in toned Morgans seems to be just as strong today. When I started collecting toned Morgans 10+ years ago, I was told that it was a thin, artificial market, and that I would lose my shirt paying prices 10 times what the underlying coins were worth. But I just loved the toned Morgans, so I paid ever more outrageous prices to buy the very best examples. I set records buying monsters. And you know what? Those monsters are always in demand. Real quality, real beauty, always has an audience. I bet the outrageous color coins in the Simpson-Sunnywood set (to be auctioned by Legend in October) will bring more than I paid for them.

(The coins will be sold with NO RESERVE and I have absolutely no financial interest in the coins or the auction. I sold the coins years ago, and they are 100% owned by R. Simpson. He was gracious enough to leave the Sunnywood name associated with the set, and of course I still have a personal connection to the set, and love the coins.)

In summary, colorful Morgans are just like everything else - the very best ones will always inspire collector demand, and the colors inspire something more: passion.

Sunnywood

bidask · July 28, 2014 11:49AM

<< 

<< 

<< This gets into the "bigger fool" theory. If the only people who are making a market are investors and speculators who are buying and selling among themselves, the market will collapse. Collectors are the people who sustain markets. If they are driven out by the speculators by unrealistic prices, the game will be over. This is what happened to the "old commemorative" coin market >>

Will it happen to " colorful "Morgans too? >>

Ouch. Maybe I should dump (er, reluctantly sell) my Ex-Sonnier coins before the deluge. >>

i only said that because old commemoratives I recall we're heavily promoted.......but there again the "colorful" ones seem to be doing well !

I have some colorful gem proof trade dollars cept they are just not in demand like colorful Morgans ans colorful Commems.

PollywogRancher · July 28, 2014 11:50AM

The whole Ponzi scheme will implode, not a matter of if but when. The inevitability of this is undeniable. Flaunt the YNs all you want, but their numbers are few and dwindle as other interests capture their time and disposable income. The shows resemble the waiting areas of the Social Security offices, gray being the predominant color, with a few younger folks trying to cash in on the system. Seen any Whitman folders at the local drugstore within living memory? Know of any kids roll searching and stuffing them? The opportunities for doing so have long passed as tastes and fashions have changed. Hey, it was fun and profitable (sorry!) while it lasted, but we are destined to follow in the footsteps of philately.

agentjim007 · July 28, 2014 11:51AM

Greed will be very obvious at the ANA starting at 8am

Nap · July 28, 2014 11:52AM

<< I have noticed something here and other places.
More and more people are more interested in making money than collecting coins.
This will be the down fall of the hobby.
Greed has NO place in the coin collecting hobby.
Just my view,. >>

Greed is far too prevalent in more than just coin collecting. Reality television, cable news, music, movies, politics and of course much of the internet is dedicated to the unabashed religious-like worship of the almighty dollar.

In the field of collecting pieces of money, where fortunes are spent, it is no surprise that there is greed too. Ignore it, and pursue the hobby you enjoy for the right reasons. It is still rewarding.

halfhunter · July 28, 2014 11:54AM

Flippers aside, isn't greed just another way of "keeping score" in our lil hobby ? ! ? !

HH

AMRC · July 28, 2014 11:55AM

sigh.

SullivanNumismatics · July 28, 2014 11:59AM

Enjoy the hobby and don't worry what other people are doing. If investors and speculators become the primary buyers of coins, eventually that fake market will collapse, and when it does you'll be able to buy coins you previously could've only dreamed of owning, since there wont be many buyers. So let prices drop, it will only make the hobby more fun.

lostincoins · July 28, 2014 12:00PM

MS70 I am 42yo and have 4 boys so you have an Idea of my perspective. Today i was going through some of my raw walker halfs that are toned and that I consider to have accelerated toning. My 12yo looks at one of them and said hey dad thats really cool what is it, I told him and he said can I have it to put in my wallet. So now my 12yo is carrying around an XF 1944 toned walker in his wallet, I put it in a Mylar flip (lol) before putting it behind the plastic ID holder so he can see it. No question as to how much it cost he just thought it was cool because it is different than anything we have today.

Now for the issue of YNs chasing after rare coins in circulation that they are not going to buy. Can you name 10 rare coins that a YN can find in pocket change right off the top of your head without looking things up? In today's modern coins I can not name 10. How many rare coins have been produced in the last 10 to 15 years that can be found in pocket change, I say 10 to 15 years because that is what the vast majority of my pocket change is at any time and when my kids see coins from the 80s and 90s they show me because to them that's old. How many shield cent sets has anyone put together because they collect them? If a YN wants a Mercury dime, a buffalo nickle, a wheat back cent or an Indian head cent they will most likely have to buy it. That is the way things are because the us mint has not put out any truly cool coins in a long time (JMHO)

I like coins and at times sell my coins to buy other coins and I would like to break even or better yet make a profit on that purchase so I can buy even more coins that I like. Just because it is a hobby does not mean you have to loose money doing the hobby.Part of the thrill for me and I think many others is finding a coin that you can buy, be the caretaker of for a while and then sell it so you can do so again. How many people here have You Suck awards and how many post do we see where a forum member found a good or great deal on a coin and sold it for a substantial profit so they could further their collection.

As to dealers, many are collectors also and became dealers so they could get the choicest coins for them selves. Some are just about the money but some are about the coins and most hobbies are that way from coins to toys.

I love this hobby and I love this forum and feel that the best knowledge can be had here even with all the complaining that goes on (myself included) the best of the best are here and are for the most part very supportive of the hobby and the business side of the hobby. Most hobbies have a business side that is just how it is, that business side can also be very good for the hobby by creating information to further the hobby that would not be so available without profits to pay for it.

Also as a last thought I would think that any of Sunnywoods coins that went for sale that he had purchased would most likely sell for a profit if not a high profit being sold at the right time.

ctf_error_coins · July 28, 2014 12:09PM

10 coins...

cheerios patterrn
Speared bison
Down leaf wi
up leaf wi
1999 wide am
mel coins

Well six anyway

lostincoins · July 28, 2014 12:12PM

As an after thought Greed is not just a monetary issue. Greed is also the feeling that you have to have the best of thee best or have something better than the next guy. That is why we grade coins, it fuels that greed and gives us a way to promote that greed. When we promote that greed, hey that's a nice MS70 but look my MS70 has a green bean on it, it gives way to the monitary amount being paid for that better item and that will always be taken advantage of in a free market.

lostincoins · July 28, 2014 12:18PM

EOC remember pocket change, when was the last time a cheerios pattern was found in pocket change? EOC you are an error expert collector and could not get 10 coins. If the mint does not do something to change this then what does this hobby have to look forward to as the same coins can only be sold over and over again before people say enough is enough. Many coins being collected today get passed around between the top collectors who have the money to continue to collect in that manor but no matter what we are all just temporary caretakers of the coins we like as some day we will all be gone too....

tradedollarnut · July 28, 2014 12:19PM

<< 

<< Great quality is always in demand. Paying a lot, even what seems extreme, is sometimes great protection against decline....... And in any world, you have to pay up for that privilege. >>

Then put these coins up for auction and see what happens. I guarantee you won't break even. >>

Simpson paid top dollar for the Sunnywood Morgan set - are you really guaranteeing that he won't break even this October? Because I will wager that you are wrong...

Coin Finder · July 28, 2014 12:31PM

I think there are more collectors in the hobby now and more "dealers" because of Ebay and other easy ways to buy and sell coins. Greed has always been around and always will. I also think that peoples collecting interests are now much more broad based branching out in all directions from Lincoln Cents to tokens, So Called, World...etc etc... I see the coin market now coming out of the recession as well. So my unscientific opinion is that the hobby is getting better.

TommyType · July 28, 2014 12:34PM

<< EOC remember pocket change, when was the last time a cheerios pattern was found in pocket change? EOC you are an error expert collector and could not get 10 coins. If the mint does not do something to change this then what does this hobby have to look forward to as the same coins can only be sold over and over again before people say enough is enough. Many coins being collected today get passed around between the top collectors who have the money to continue to collect in that manor but no matter what we are all just temporary caretakers of the coins we like as some day we will all be gone too.... >>

I think you error by including only high value varieties in your quest.

Have a kid look for all 50 states.

If you think that won't keep them interested, and that high profit potential is the only way to grab the imagination, then I have to agree with the OP, and say that greed has won.

(Personally, I think greed only drives a small portion of the hobby at any given time. The segment that is targeted may change with the times, but many move happily along at the high end, the low end, and the middle, without really noticing the flavor of the month.)

lostincoins · July 28, 2014 12:49PM

Hey Tommy that reply was based on a reply about rare coins. As for quarters we had the big 50 state folders and just turned them all in because my boys said they are boring lol. My boys do get exposure though when they help me search bags and rolls and we try to do that together. they have eyes that pick out the oddities (errors) better it seems..

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD · July 28, 2014 12:51PM

<< 

<< 

<< Great quality is always in demand. Paying a lot, even what seems extreme, is sometimes great protection against decline....... And in any world, you have to pay up for that privilege. >>

Then put these coins up for auction and see what happens. I guarantee you won't break even. >>

Simpson paid top dollar for the Sunnywood Morgan set - are you really guaranteeing that he won't break even this October? Because I will wager that you are wrong... >>

...interesting...I love a good and fair bet. If I were to take your action TDN, it would be only because Simpson probably couldn't care any less if he breaks even or not. He is a whale, a real whale that could probably buy every single US coin ever minted that holds a numismatic value. On the other hand, I will not fade your wager simply because Legend's new auction system setup and the way you guys do business makes me feel that Mr. Simpson will probably break far more than even. If you do find a taker for your action, I would be willing to house the funds for all parties and then pay them out to the winner/winners...for a teeny-weeny but nominal fee

FYI, I live a very short distance from Mexico and can drive to Las Vegas before midnight, so no breaking the law on my part,
Erik

roadrunner · July 28, 2014 12:53PM

Greed in this hobby is at least as old as Steve Ivy (SIR coin) and Jim Halperin (NERCG) from the early 1970's. Those guys understood the shifting tides, the closing of the gold window in 1971, and the effect rising inflation would have on the coin market. Maybe others helped them push the investment concept to the forefront of the hobby, but they are the two I remember most. In that era you also had Paramount International, Joe Flynn, Joel Rettew, Fred Sweeney, First Coinvestors, Bowers and Ruddy, Stacks, and many others. Blame them (and the lack of a gold standard and rising inflation from the post Vietnam war era) for the greed in the coin market. It's never left since first showing up in 1970. There was more greed in the 1970's and 1980's imo as many dealers could sell their customers literal swill while requiring gem unc money. Today's fascination with registry sets, pop tops, and finest knowns is an off shoot of investors and collectors trying to protect themselves from depreciating currencies and a potential uncertain world.

The only true "purists" collectors today are the ones that don't care what they paid for something and have no concern on whether they make or lose money in the process. They are far and few between. That doesn't mean that guys that spent big bucks on their coins are any less of a collector. They just don't happen to be purists in a literal sense. The last time I was a potential purist was in 2nd or 3rd grade. But even then, I was into collecting because I knew coins could be "worth something." Even then I was losing my purist status.

stealer · July 28, 2014 12:57PM

"Just keep the monkeys away from the table..."

CoinZip · July 28, 2014 12:59PM

If I was doing this to make money....... I would have quit/starved to death long ago.

BryceM · July 28, 2014 1:02PM

Collectors are a subset of people who participate in numismatics. Those who aren't collectors have no reason to participate except to make money.

On average, I'd say true collectors are under-represented here and on most Internet sites. Go to most any local coin club meeting and you'll see that the "real" hobby is alive and well. Most of the guys in my local club are aware of slabbed coins, but don't really have any. They're having plenty of fun filling holes in albums.

There are a large number of dealers, "Investors", vest-pocket types, crackout artists, graders, flippers, photographers, authors, and such here on this site. Some people might fit more than one category.

As far as YNs go, retirees and rich people have always been the backbone of the top half of the hobby. Numismatics will continue to change and evolve. Someday it might even implode. If it does, I'll be the first one in line to buy up all the newly inexpensive Bust material. To me, a huge market downturn would be called a buying opportunity...... but I'm not really liking my chances......

ms70 · July 28, 2014 1:25PM

lostincoins, First I have to say it's awesome that your kids are fascinated with coins at that age. It can only get better!

10 rare coins in circulation? You are right, I cannot name 10 that may be found today. It's unlikely but not impossible. But that's what it's about- The quest. You can still put
a complete Jefferson nickel set together from circulation. I still find 1938 & 39 Jeffersons from time to time and just a few years ago a wartime nickel. Rare? Well not really, but
to a kid that would be huge.....AND rare! And if you want to cheat, have them check the return bin at the supermarket coin counting machine. That's a regular source of silver
finds. There could potentially be a 42/1 Merc dumped in there. Who knows? Again, the quest is the real prize, even for us grown-ups. When YN's get older and get a job, then
they can concern themselves with chasing bigger things with their wallet.

<< Part of the thrill for me and I think many others is finding a coin that you can buy, be the caretaker of for a while and then sell it so you can do so again. How many people here have You Suck awards and how many post do we see where a forum member found a good or great deal on a coin and sold it for a substantial profit so they could further their collection. >>

This is not greed by any means, it's a bonus. Greed is intentionally hawking a coin at 3X it's value or misrepresenting it in some way to the unknowing which is sad and becoming
too often. And that goes for a collector or a dealer. As far as the hypothetical purchase of very nice coins for moon money, I strongly disagree. If you purchase coins for moon money
and expect Mars money in return, it's just not going to happen. I wouldn't fund my future on that hope.

What has happened to the coin hobby?

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