1861-S Paquet in the Saddle Ridge Hoard? UPDATE - Status of 1.2 million dollar coin

northcoin · February 25, 2014 9:25PM

Has been most interesting to read about the 1,373 $20 Double Eagles from the 1850s to 1894, mostly from the San Francisco mint, that were just discovered in the Saddle Ridge Hoard. Thirteen of the gold coins in the hoard are reportedly either at, or tied, with the top condition presently known for their respective dates. Apparently one of the significant $20 gold pieces is a No Motto from 1866.

It will be interesting to learn whether the hoard includes a 1861-S Paquet. Jeff Garrett and Ron Guth in their 2008 Third Edition of "100 Greatest U.S. Coins" place the 1861 San Francisco minted Paquet at number 83 and note that "there are probably 200 to 300 examples known in all grades." Of even more significance with regard to the Saddle Ridge Hoard is whether the first uncirculated example will emerge. An AU example is given an historical value by the authors of $85,000.00. Imagine what a heretofore unknown uncirculated example in any MS grade would command!

Ironically, I had just retrieved my own 1861-S Paquet Reverse Double Eagle earlier today to photograph it for the first time before reading about the Saddle Ridge Hoard. As seen in my photo below the reverse letters are much taller and slender in appearance in Anthony Paquet's altered reverse design. (The new design was cancelled and the newly minted coins were recalled, but before word could reach the San Francisco mint in 1861, 19,250 coins had already been released.)

I guess we will learn soon whether the world now has its first uncirculated 1861-S "Paquet Reverse" Double Eagle.

In the meantime, here is mine:

crypto79 · February 25, 2014 9:33PM

That is quite the coin of yours, the region and size of this hoard make it fascinating.

ricko · February 26, 2014 12:14AM

Nice Pacquet, Northcoin....and that hoard is really intriguing, especially the manner in which it was found - not to mention the well kept secrecy surrounding it all. Cheers, RickO

DaveWcoins · February 26, 2014 1:48AM

No -- there is no Paquet in the Saddle Ridge hoard.

northcoin · February 26, 2014 7:00AM

<< No -- there is no Paquet in the Saddle Ridge hoard. >>

Thanks for confirming! I guess that is the good news, bad news scenario. Bad that the world still does not have its first uncirculated 1861-S Paquet, Good that the rarity of those in hand remains intact.

northcoin · February 26, 2014 11:28AM

<< No -- there is no Paquet in the Saddle Ridge hoard. >>

Dave, what are your thoughts on the possible tie in to this hoard and the six bags of gold coins that went missing from the San Francisco mint in the late 1800s?

Coinosaurus · February 26, 2014 1:01PM

Surprised no one has yet filed suit to hold up the sale of the coins.

Generally, when property is deliberately cached, title remains with the person who buried it (or their heirs). The burden of proof would be on the claimant to demonstrate their ancestor buried it. Otherwise the finder gets it.

State laws may vary. Any California attorneys on the board here?

Tookybandit · February 26, 2014 1:16PM

How do you pronounce the word Pacquet? Is it Pack-It?

joebb21 · February 26, 2014 1:22PM

<< Surprised no one has yet filed suit to hold up the sale of the coins.

Generally, when property is deliberately cached, title remains with the person who buried it (or their heirs). The burden of proof would be on the claimant to demonstrate their ancestor buried it. Otherwise the finder gets it.

State laws may vary. Any California attorneys on the board here? >>

How can you prove your ancestors buried the coins when the location of the find is not known.

Another win for not disclosing identity and place of discovery

BAJJERFAN · February 26, 2014 1:47PM

<< How do you pronounce the word Pacquet? Is it Pack-It? >>

pah-kett

BAJJERFAN · February 26, 2014 1:49PM

<< 

<< Surprised no one has yet filed suit to hold up the sale of the coins.

Generally, when property is deliberately cached, title remains with the person who buried it (or their heirs). The burden of proof would be on the claimant to demonstrate their ancestor buried it. Otherwise the finder gets it.

State laws may vary. Any California attorneys on the board here? >>

How can you prove your ancestors buried the coins when the location of the find is not known.

Another win for not disclosing identity and place of discovery >>

There are some who would feel that is deceptive and dishonest!

Silveraholic · February 26, 2014 2:12PM

<< Surprised no one has yet filed suit to hold up the sale of the coins.

Generally, when property is deliberately cached, title remains with the person who buried it (or their heirs). The burden of proof would be on the claimant to demonstrate their ancestor buried it. Otherwise the finder gets it.

State laws may vary. Any California attorneys on the board here? >>

Even if you can figure out who buried these coins and who their descendants are. Don't you have to prove that whomever buried them had actual ownership of the coins and didn't steal them?

northcoin · February 26, 2014 7:28PM

<< 

<< Surprised no one has yet filed suit to hold up the sale of the coins.

Generally, when property is deliberately cached, title remains with the person who buried it (or their heirs). The burden of proof would be on the claimant to demonstrate their ancestor buried it. Otherwise the finder gets it.

State laws may vary. Any California attorneys on the board here? >>

Even if you can figure out who buried these coins and who their descendants are. Don't you have to prove that whomever buried them had actual ownership of the coins and didn't steal them? >>

As to the latter point, I think that was/is the crux of the Langford case - who gets the presumption? Does the claimant have to prove his ancestor did not steal them or is it presumed that they were not stolen until proved otherwise?

northcoin · March 18, 2014 2:37PM

Noteworthy that with the added time since the hoard's disclosure there have been no publicized claims to the treasure.

mr1931S · March 19, 2014 12:19AM

There's lots of people who want all the fuss about who owns the coins to end.The government has no interest in the Saddle Ridge coins other than taxes from the sale.
The 1894 date being the last represented in the hoard intrigues me.Indications to me here are that some wealthy person wanted to keep their gold money out of banks around that time.

northcoin · April 1, 2014 6:13PM

1893 was a very bad year with businesses and banks failing, silver mines closing in the West, and the President of the United States having to borrow 65 million dollars in gold just to keep our government on the gold standard. May not be such a coincidence that the last dated coins in the Saddle Ridge Hoard are from 1894. Individuals, a bank, or a company headed to bankruptcy might well have been motivated to hide what assets they had before the creditors came knocking. Might also explain why the "deposits" stopped thereafter

1893 was start of the worst depression to date for the US

northcoin · April 21, 2014 4:28AM

Any updates on news regarding the Saddle Ridge Hoard? Seems like this story got frozen in time. Even the Amazon and Kagin websites remain static. Would at least have expected an inquisitive investigative reporter to have done a little sleuthing to disclose a little bit more about John and Mary and/or to more specifically identify where in "Gold Country" these coins were buried.

Wabbit2313 · April 21, 2014 5:18AM

That coin of yours is SWEET!

northcoin · April 21, 2014 8:00AM

<< That coin of yours is SWEET! >>

Thanks.

Sounds like no updates on the hoard - at least from this board.

BAJJERFAN · April 21, 2014 8:47AM

The Saddle Ridgers have been as quiet as a church mouse.

northcoin · April 22, 2014 9:32AM

<< The Saddle Ridgers have been as quiet as a church mouse. >>

Waiting for the clock to strike one?

northcoin · April 28, 2014 11:16AM

<< Any updates on news regarding the Saddle Ridge Hoard? Seems like this story got frozen in time. Even the Amazon and Kagin websites remain static. Would at least have expected an inquisitive investigative reporter to have done a little sleuthing to disclose a little bit more about John and Mary and/or to more specifically identify where in "Gold Country" these coins were buried. >>

Ok, finally some solid news. Per Numismaticnews.net it was revealed at the Chicago coin club that the Saddle Ridge coins will go on sale at fixed prices beginning at Midnight on May 27th. The damaged ones will go for $2500, graded circulated will range from $3000 to$3500, and lowest mint state coins will price. At $5000.

One 1874-S will be offered as a promotional item in an auction at the old San Francisco mint 30 minutes before the Kagins and Amazon websites go active with the fixed price coins.

Let the discussion begin as to which category represents the best "value."

STONE · April 28, 2014 11:20AM

<< Ok, finally some solid news. Per Numismaticnews.net it was revealed at the Chicago coin club that the Saddle Ridge coins will go on sale at fixed prices beginning at Midnight on May 27th. The damaged ones will go for $2500, graded circulated will range from $3000 to$3500, and lowest mint state coins will price. At $5000.

One 1874-S will be offered as a promotional item in an auction at the old San Francisco mint 30 minutes before the Kagins and Amazon websites go active with the fixed price coins.

Let the discussion begin as to which category represents the best "value." >>

Pedigree prices!

DCW · April 28, 2014 11:54AM

Insane prices IMO. Most of these coins lose half their value or more outside their slab. (Funny how they went from one tomb to another)
It was an interesting story, yes, but I'm already over it.

AnkurJ · April 28, 2014 11:58AM

Too high of a premium in my opinion.

mariner67 · April 28, 2014 12:16PM

"It was an interesting story, yes, but I'm already over it."

+1

Way too high a premium!
Makes you wonder what some people really are collecting.

northcoin · April 28, 2014 1:28PM

<< "It was an interesting story, yes, but I'm already over it."

+1

Way too high a premium!
Makes you wonder what some people really are collecting. >>

When Lee Fisher came to my city just after the Atocha salvage operation there was a substantial premium on the coins he offered for sale. Had there been any coins on the Titanic those would have commanded a premium just based on what "junk" from that shipwreck has sold for in auctions. I t think it is hard to dispute that these coins from the Saddle Ridge Hoard will justify a premium over their non "pedigree" brothers, but I suspect we may all be surprised what the broader market outside of the numismatic community will be willing to bear. That leaves the question of whether the $2500 damaged coins (which for a $20 gold piece would include at least $1300 in melt value) is going to be the better "value" over a low mint state example selling for twice the price with the same melt value.

OriginalDan · April 28, 2014 1:31PM

Well that's disappointing. Prices are about 30% higher than I figured (hoped).

RYK · April 28, 2014 1:42PM

I would be interested in buying the CC $10 that was posted on the forum a while back. I will undoubtedly purchase a generic $10 or $20 at some point.

northcoin · April 28, 2014 1:48PM

<< Well that's disappointing. Prices are about 30% higher than I figured (hoped). >>

I guess if one chalked up the 30% as an equivalent of auction fees one might be able to rationalize the posted prices. I expect the damaged coins may be the ones that fly off the wall since for John Q. Public the word "Genuine" on the holder is a lot more important than MS whatever.

Given the assigned prices, still would like to hear from forum members what you think about the relative "value" of getting a graded circulated AU 53-58 $20 versus a low mint state (MS 61 or MS62) of the same date Saddle Ridge Hoard coin for $1500 to $2000 more.

MsMorrisine · April 28, 2014 1:50PM

<< I would be interested in buying the CC $10 that was posted on the forum a while back. I will undoubtedly purchase a generic $10 or $20 at some point. >>

would you pass on these if they are over a generic $10's or $20's price?

MsMorrisine · April 28, 2014 1:55PM

<< 

<< Well that's disappointing. Prices are about 30% higher than I figured (hoped). >>

I guess if one chalked up the 30% as an equivalent of auction fees one might be able to rationalize the posted prices. I expect the damaged coins may be the ones that fly off the wall since for John Q. Public the word "Genuine" on the holder is a lot more important than MS whatever.

Given the assigned prices, still would like to hear from forum members what you think about the relative "value" of getting a graded circulated AU 53-58 $20 versus a low mint state (MS 61 or MS62) of the same date Saddle Ridge Hoard coin for $1500 to $2000 more. >>

I don't think any of these are John Q. Public coins, even the battered ones.

I'm not collecting gold of this era, but I'd think any condition rarities may sell ok, or dare I say well? For me, I'd not be interested in a 61 or 62 just because it's part of the hoard if there are better examples in higher grades or less beat examples in 58. In this case, I'm thinking these may not sell well.

But what do I know?

northcoin · April 28, 2014 2:12PM

<< 

<< 

<< Well that's disappointing. Prices are about 30% higher than I figured (hoped). >>

I guess if one chalked up the 30% as an equivalent of auction fees one might be able to rationalize the posted prices. I expect the damaged coins may be the ones that fly off the wall since for John Q. Public the word "Genuine" on the holder is a lot more important than MS whatever.

Given the assigned prices, still would like to hear from forum members what you think about the relative "value" of getting a graded circulated AU 53-58 $20 versus a low mint state (MS 61 or MS62) of the same date Saddle Ridge Hoard coin for $1500 to $2000 more. >>

I don't think any of these are John Q. Public coins, even the battered ones.

I'm not collecting gold of this era, but I'd think any condition rarities may sell ok, or dare I say well? For me, I'd not be interested in a 61 or 62 just because it's part of the hoard if there are better examples in higher grades or less beat examples in 58. In this case, I'm thinking these may not sell well.

But what do I know? >>

Doug Winter would be one who could add some insight. I believe he has been tracking what the post sale history has been of the premium included Central America gold coins.

northcoin · April 28, 2014 2:18PM

<< 

<< Doug Winter would be one who could add some insight. I believe he has been tracking what the post sale history has been of the premium included Central America gold coins. >>

Shipwreck coins will always sell better than hoard coins, imho, because there is more romanticism and a solid story behind the shipwreck coins... nobody really knows where this gold came from. >>

I guess the key question then is if it is fair to equate the added value of the "Saddle Hoard story" to that of the "solid story behind the shipwreck coins." In any event here is a link to a fairly recent article by Doug Winter on the subject of valuing San Francisco minted shipwreck coins that might be of some guidance here.

Doug Winter's views on value added for some San Fran Gold

Zoins · April 28, 2014 2:25PM

Here's the half eagle I'm interested in

northcoin · April 28, 2014 2:32PM

<< Here's the half eagle I'm interested in

>>

Interesting - did you catch Doug Winter's comment on the coin of your choice in the above linked article? Here is the relevant excerpt:

"I think we will continue to see quite a bit strength in the rarity-driven market as collectors tend to be more interested in coins like 1862-S half eagles in VF than in 1892-S half eagles grading MS64. The market for condition rarities will be more hit or miss. Certain coins, including many of the “top pops” from the Saddle Ridge Hoard, will be eagerly absorbed into collections. Others may prove far harder to sell."

FullStrike · April 28, 2014 2:36PM

Put these Saddle Ridge Coins up there with the MS70 & PF70 Baltimore HOF Gold Coins. Now share a few comments on the
Saddle Ridge Gold.

Zoins · April 28, 2014 2:37PM

<< 

<< Here's the half eagle I'm interested in

>>

Interesting - did you catch Doug Winter's comment on the coin of your choice in the above linked article? Here is the relevant excerpt:

"I think we will continue to see quite a bit strength in the rarity-driven market as collectors tend to be more interested in coins like 1862-S half eagles in VF than in 1892-S half eagles grading MS64. The market for condition rarities will be more hit or miss. Certain coins, including many of the “top pops” from the Saddle Ridge Hoard, will be eagerly absorbed into collections. Others may prove far harder to sell." >>

I like this coin because it's screams Saddle Ridge and it's a CC. Need to look through the rest to see if any others have the Saddle Ridge look.

northcoin · April 28, 2014 9:27PM

<< 

<< Ok, finally some solid news. Per Numismaticnews.net it was revealed at the Chicago coin club that the Saddle Ridge coins will go on sale at fixed prices beginning at Midnight on May 27th. The damaged ones will go for $2500, graded circulated will range from $3000 to$3500, and lowest mint state coins will price. At $5000.

One 1874-S will be offered as a promotional item in an auction at the old San Francisco mint 30 minutes before the Kagins and Amazon websites go active with the fixed price coins.

Let the discussion begin as to which category represents the best "value." >>

Pedigree prices! >>

An additional disclosure was the fact that another dealer had made an offer first to buy the coins for melt plus an additional $40 per coin over melt. Had that offer been accepted it would be interesting to speculate at just what prices these same coins would have been marketed or alternatively if the buyer was concerned the coins may have been stolen that we never would have heard about a hoard with many being melted and others selectively being slipped into the pipeline over time.

northcoin · April 29, 2014 6:15AM

<< 

<< Any updates on news regarding the Saddle Ridge Hoard? Seems like this story got frozen in time. Even the Amazon and Kagin websites remain static. Would at least have expected an inquisitive investigative reporter to have done a little sleuthing to disclose a little bit more about John and Mary and/or to more specifically identify where in "Gold Country" these coins were buried. >>

Ok, finally some solid news. Per Numismaticnews.net it was revealed at the Chicago coin club that the Saddle Ridge coins will go on sale at fixed prices beginning at Midnight on May 27th. The damaged ones will go for $2500, graded circulated will range from $3000 to$3500, and lowest mint state coins will price. At $5000.

One 1874-S will be offered as a promotional item in an auction at the old San Francisco mint 30 minutes before the Kagins and Amazon websites go active with the fixed price coins.

Let the discussion begin as to which category represents the best "value." >>

Below is the link to the above referenced article.

Still welcome a discussion here as to the relative "value" of the various categories between those in Genuine holders at $2500, those in AU graded holders from $3000 to $3500, and those in low mint state holders at $5,000. I will start the discussion by suggesting the extra $500 to get a graded example even though AU might well be the sweet spot

between the three if one just has to have one of these in their collection.

Details regarding the Coins going on Sale May 27th

ElmerFusterpuck · April 29, 2014 6:44AM

I think I'll pass and see what happens in the aftermarket, those premiums are way too steep for me.

I am glad that the dealer who offered just $40 over melt for for each coin didn't get anything. Sounds way too much like those bottom-feeding hotel setup buyers.

Lakesammman · April 29, 2014 7:53AM

Interesting - did you catch Doug Winter's comment on the coin of your choice in the above linked article? Here is the relevant excerpt:

"I think we will continue to see quite a bit strength in the rarity-driven market as collectors tend to be more interested in coins like 1862-S half eagles in VF than in 1892-S half eagles grading MS64. The market for condition rarities will be more hit or miss. Certain coins, including many of the “top pops” from the Saddle Ridge Hoard, will be eagerly absorbed into collections. Others may prove far harder to sell." >>

I like this coin because it's screams Saddle Ridge and it's a CC. Need to look through the rest to see if any others have the Saddle Ridge look.

Not sure I understand how Winter's comments apply to the 92-CC $5??

Edited for grammer.....

MsMorrisine · April 29, 2014 8:14AM

My watching will definitely extend to the first auction sales of these.

Some are likening the premiums to BP + CC fees. Will future hammers hit these prices or stop short at a price that is the BP under, or even in line with non-pedigrees.

BAJJERFAN · April 29, 2014 9:31AM

<< Interesting - did you catch Doug Winter's comment on the coin of your choice in the above linked article? Here is the relevant excerpt:

"I think we will continue to see quite a bit strength in the rarity-driven market as collectors tend to be more interested in coins like 1862-S half eagles in VF than in 1892-S half eagles grading MS64. The market for condition rarities will be more hit or miss. Certain coins, including many of the “top pops” from the Saddle Ridge Hoard, will be eagerly absorbed into collections. Others may prove far harder to sell." >>

I like this coin because it's screams Saddle Ridge and it's a CC. Need to look through the rest to see if any others have the Saddle Ridge look.

Not sure I understand how Winter's comments apply to the 92-CC $5??

Edited for grammer.....

>>

grammar?

pcunix · April 29, 2014 9:44AM

<< 

Ok, finally some solid news. Per Numismaticnews.net it was revealed at the Chicago coin club that the Saddle Ridge coins will go on sale at fixed prices beginning at Midnight on May 27th. The damaged ones will go for $2500, graded circulated will range from $3000 to$3500, and lowest mint state coins will price. At $5000.

>>

I'd love to have even a damaged one just for the historical interest, but not at $2,500.

northcoin · April 29, 2014 2:37PM

<< 

<< 

Ok, finally some solid news. Per Numismaticnews.net it was revealed at the Chicago coin club that the Saddle Ridge coins will go on sale at fixed prices beginning at Midnight on May 27th. The damaged ones will go for $2500, graded circulated will range from $3000 to$3500, and lowest mint state coins will price. At $5000.

>>

I'd love to have even a damaged one just for the historical interest, but not at $2,500. >>

Maybe a small piece of one of the cans clipped out and inserted into a holder at a lower price point like they do for some trading cards?

northcoin · April 29, 2014 2:39PM

<< Interesting - did you catch Doug Winter's comment on the coin of your choice in the above linked article? Here is the relevant excerpt:

"I think we will continue to see quite a bit strength in the rarity-driven market as collectors tend to be more interested in coins like 1862-S half eagles in VF than in 1892-S half eagles grading MS64. The market for condition rarities will be more hit or miss. Certain coins, including many of the “top pops” from the Saddle Ridge Hoard, will be eagerly absorbed into collections. Others may prove far harder to sell." >>

I like this coin because it's screams Saddle Ridge and it's a CC. Need to look through the rest to see if any others have the Saddle Ridge look.

Not sure I understand how Winter's comments apply to the 92-CC $5??

Edited for grammer.....

>>

Good catch. Posting after midnight one has a tendency to see an s where there was a cc.

bestmr · April 29, 2014 2:41PM

Outrageous prices imo. I was sort of hoping for reasonable prices to be able to purchase one. Not, I'm looking for some suckers to come and bite.

Bochiman · April 29, 2014 2:48PM

<< Outrageous prices imo. I was sort of hoping for reasonable prices to be able to purchase one. Not, I'm looking for some suckers to come and bite. >>

Ditto.

Now, it will be interesting, at these prices, who the primary buyers are......those spending the money for the "horde" or those that are flippers/dealers looking for even MORE of a price adjustment upwards........?

1861-S Paquet in the Saddle Ridge Hoard? UPDATE - Status of 1.2 million dollar coin

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