<< <i>I think I'll pass and see what happens in the aftermarket, those premiums are way too steep for me.
I am glad that the dealer who offered just $40 over melt for for each coin didn't get anything. Sounds way too much like those bottom-feeding hotel setup buyers. >>
Just a wild guess, but one has to question whether part of the premium pricing justification is an expectation by the sellers that gold prices will head over the $2000 an ounce mark at some not too distant point in time as many have predicted. If that happens those who wait to see what happens in the aftermarket may find it a wash and any unsold inventory will become more dear.
One has to believe that the sellers might well be served if at least some of the sales slip into another tax year or two. Kagins' own pricing on the Kagin website seems to adopt this philosophy, at least in part, as many of the coins seem to be maxed as evident from their remaining available over long periods of time apparently waiting for the market to adjust and reach the asked for prices. In other words i don't see John and Mary or their agent sellers Kagins and Amazon in any rush to "dump" the inventory. This alone may well answer the question many first asked as to why these coins did not head to auction in the first place where time would have been of the essence.
(The premise as to delayed sales being an advantage to John and Mary of course assumes that John and Mary have not already consummated a sale to Kagins and/or Amazon and are now otherwise completely out of the picture.)
<< <i>Interesting - did you catch Doug Winter's comment on the coin of your choice in the above linked article? Here is the relevant excerpt:
"I think we will continue to see quite a bit strength in the rarity-driven market as collectors tend to be more interested in coins like 1862-S half eagles in VF than in 1892-S half eagles grading MS64. The market for condition rarities will be more hit or miss. Certain coins, including many of the “top pops” from the Saddle Ridge Hoard, will be eagerly absorbed into collections. Others may prove far harder to sell." >>
I like this coin because it's screams Saddle Ridge and it's a CC. Need to look through the rest to see if any others have the Saddle Ridge look.
Not sure I understand how Winter's comments apply to the 92-CC $5??
Edited for grammer..... >>
Good catch. Posting after midnight one has a tendency to see an s where there was a cc. >>
I was wondering that too but just chose to let it go at the time. Thanks for bringing it up.
friend of mine is anxiously trying to buy one of the Ms66 1886-s $10's recently found in this hoard. I told him that the price will be high, and that he may never gets his premium back, but he is insistant on getting one
<< <i>friend of mine is anxiously trying to buy one of the Ms66 1886-s $10's recently found in this hoard. I told him that the price will be high, and that he may never gets his premium back, but he is insistant on getting one >>
I guess we could have all taken a cue from TDN's observation at the inception that the coin that was projected to be a million dollar value had in the same grade in a fairly recent auction only gone for approximately half that. Of course with a CAC sticker TDN might have a different view.
How come when I type grammar as grammer spell check doesn't kick in, as it just did now??
Back to my original question - what does Winters comments have to do with the 92-CC $5??
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
<< <i>friend of mine is anxiously trying to buy one of the Ms66 1886-s $10's recently found in this hoard. I told him that the price will be high, and that he may never gets his premium back, but he is insistant on getting one >>
This is probably why they chose to sell through Amazon. There will be more dumbos willing to overpay there than there may be a Heritage. Would they have been just as well off to sell them to HSN?
<< <i>It's kind of neat these are going through Amazon as it indicates there's interest beyond traditional collectors so it may be a way to grow the hobby.
Would optimistic premiums from new collectors be considered a form of tuition? >>
More likely the interest is from greed driven speculators who think they are going to make a killing reselling the coins. Same ones who get suckered in on HSN.
<< <i>It's kind of neat these are going through Amazon as it indicates there's interest beyond traditional collectors so it may be a way to grow the hobby.
Would optimistic premiums from new collectors be considered a form of tuition? >>
More likely the interest is from greed driven speculators who think they are going to make a killing reselling the coins. Same ones who get suckered in on HSN. >>
If the "premium" is approximately 30% over what those in the hobby would otherwise be willing to pay as suggested by at least one forum member above then the question comes down to whether "the story" that goes with these coins will carry the day. Other hoards such as the Binion and Redford and even the World Trade Center coins could offer some guidance. Does anyone recall what their
premiums were at the inception and how well they held those values once a secondary market developed? The shipwreck coins model merit comparison as well.
Upon further reflection, the World Trade Center gold coins might be the best indicator so it would be interesting to hear WTC forum member chime in.
Some additional new disclosures about the Saddle Ridge Hoard are also included in the most recent reporting. Include that the cans have now been identified as "Golden Gate Baking Powder" cans and that the hoard itself was located close to multiple property lines:
"McCarthy said he was able to identify the canisters as Golden Gate brand baking powder cans of a style used in the middle 1880s, which was consistent with the dates of the coins in them (1847-1894).
Though he did not reveal where the coins were found, he described the location as in a “fairly remote area near several property lines.” He also said the spot was hidden from view on three sides along a ridge line path that the couple used to walk their dog.
There was evidence that some of the canisters were dug up and more coins added to the hoard, including damaged coins. He estimated that coins were added to the hoard over a period of 15 or 20 years."
Some additional new disclosures about the Saddle Ridge Hoard are also included in the most recent reporting. Include that the cans have now been identified as "Golden Gate Baking Powder" cans and that the hoard itself was located close to multiple property lines:
"McCarthy said he was able to identify the canisters as Golden Gate brand baking powder cans of a style used in the middle 1880s, which was consistent with the dates of the coins in them (1847-1894).
Though he did not reveal where the coins were found, he described the location as in a “fairly remote area near several property lines.” He also said the spot was hidden from view on three sides along a ridge line path that the couple used to walk their dog.
There was evidence that some of the canisters were dug up and more coins added to the hoard, including damaged coins. He estimated that coins were added to the hoard over a period of 15 or 20 years."
For anyone who wants to delve a little deeper into the "mystery" surrounding the Saddle Ridge Hoard, here is a link to a publication titled, "Archeology of Historical Artifacts" which at page 169 actually describes the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans and their lids having been a product of the Folger company (of Folger coffee fame) in San Francisco and describes their having been
transported to the Sierra Nevada. Noteworthy a complete review of the history and patents related to cans in the rather lengthy publication actually points to the Golden Gate powder cans having first been available later in the century as suggested by McCarthy of Kagins for whatever that is worth.
"My real question about this is who could basically afford to bury the modern-day equivalent of 1/2 a million bucks and not ever have to come back for it, nor would their descendants/inheritors notice it missing? That's quite a lot of dough"
Well here is one answer that follows from combining two of the clues (the manufacturer of the cans and the ties to the "mining industry."):
Adding to the intrigue, it turns out that the company that manufactured the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans did not come into existence as J.A. Folger and Company until 1872 when James, the younger of the three Folger brothers bought out his partners. Here is the kicker though - all three brothers were involved in gold mining. Certainly an interesting "clue" that would fit with the
Saddle Ridge Hoard coins being the once held property of one or more of the Folger brothers. From the very beginning Kagin has hypothesized that these coins were deposited by someone involved in "the mining industry." Here is an excerpt tying the history of the company that made the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans (as established in my immediately preceding two posts) and their
founders involvement in "the mining industry."
"In the fall of 1849, the family sent James and his two older brothers to the West Coast to mine for gold. The Folger family had enough money to pay for their passage to San Francisco, but was unable to provide enough money for all three boys to travel from there to the mining towns. Therefore 15-year-old James remained in San Francisco to work for his travel costs while his older
brothers proceeded to the mines."
…..
After working at Bovee's mill for nearly a year, James had saved enough money to stake a claim and headed out to mine for gold. He agreed to carry along samples of coffee and spices, taking orders from grocery stores in the mining country until he arrived in a town called Yankee Jim's in 1851.
Upon his return to San Francisco in 1865, James became a full partner of The Pioneer Steam Coffee and Spice Mills. In 1872, James bought out the other partners, renaming the company J.A. Folger & Co.
James married in 1861 and he and his wife had four children, two of whom died. His two remaining children worked for the family business. In June of 1889, at the age of 51, James died of a coronary occlusion. His oldest son, James A. Folger, II, had worked in the company for seven years at the time of his father's passing. He was 26 years old and ready to step into the role of president of
J.A. Folger & Co."
Of course the fact that there were coins included in the Saddle Ridge Hoard up to 1894 would have to indicate someone other than James added to or deposited additional coins in the "Dirt Bank of Saddle Ridge." Presumably in addition to James A. Folger, II, the two older brothers who apparently continued in "the mining industry" would have had opportunity.
TO ANSWER THE QUESTION POSED IN THE IMMEDIATELY PRECEDING POST, at least one or more of these Folger family members had a source for accumulating the wealth represented by the Saddle Ridge Hoard!
Below is the link for more details on the history of the company that made the cans that contained the coins that were found in the Saddle Ridge Hoard.
OK, here are some interesting factoids about James A. Folger, his two brothers, and their descendants:
1. James A. Folger's (who is described in the above post) brothers who travelled with him to California in 1849 for the California Gold Rush were Henry (two years older) and Edward (four years older.)
2. James A. Folger was the uncle of oil baron and founder of the Folger Shakespeare Library Henry Clay Folger who was born in 1857 to Henry, the middle brother.
3. James A. Folger was the great grandfather of Abigail Folger who along with Sharon Tate was murdered by Manson Family members in 1969.
It would be interesting to learn if either of the brothers, Henry or James, died or became incompetent just after the last coins were deposited in the "Dirt Bank of Saddle Ridge" in 1894. The "bank" and its location may have only been shared by James, who met his unexpected sudden demise a few years prior (as described in the above post), and one or more of the other brothers.
It would also be interesting to know if Abigail, had she not been murdered, would now recall stories of her great grandfather having secreted away a portion of his fortune in "Dirt banks" to protect them from the failing real banks of the late 1800s.
(Of course now that the coins have been soaked in at least four different solvents it would be difficult to tie Folger family DNA to the DNA which may have once been on the coins. However there still are those tell tale Folger manufactured "Golden Gate baking powder cans" in which the coins were stored that could be subjected to testing. LOL)
<< <i>"My real question about this is who could basically afford to bury the modern-day equivalent of 1/2 a million bucks and not ever have to come back for it, nor would their descendants/inheritors notice it missing? That's quite a lot of dough"
Well here is one answer that follows from combining two of the clues (the manufacturer of the cans and the ties to the "mining industry."):
Adding to the intrigue, it turns out that the company that manufactured the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans did not come into existence as J.A. Folger and Company until 1872 when James, the younger of the three Folger brothers bought out his partners. Here is the kicker though - all three brothers were involved in gold mining. Certainly an interesting "clue" that would fit with the
Saddle Ridge Hoard coins being the once held property of one or more of the Folger brothers. From the very beginning Kagin has hypothesized that these coins were deposited by someone involved in "the mining industry." Here is an excerpt tying the history of the company that made the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans (as established in my immediately preceding two posts) and their
founders involvement in "the mining industry."
"In the fall of 1849, the family sent James and his two older brothers to the West Coast to mine for gold. The Folger family had enough money to pay for their passage to San Francisco, but was unable to provide enough money for all three boys to travel from there to the mining towns. Therefore 15-year-old James remained in San Francisco to work for his travel costs while his older
brothers proceeded to the mines."
…..
After working at Bovee's mill for nearly a year, James had saved enough money to stake a claim and headed out to mine for gold. He agreed to carry along samples of coffee and spices, taking orders from grocery stores in the mining country until he arrived in a town called Yankee Jim's in 1851.
Upon his return to San Francisco in 1865, James became a full partner of The Pioneer Steam Coffee and Spice Mills. In 1872, James bought out the other partners, renaming the company J.A. Folger & Co.
James married in 1861 and he and his wife had four children, two of whom died. His two remaining children worked for the family business. In June of 1889, at the age of 51, James died of a coronary occlusion. His oldest son, James A. Folger, II, had worked in the company for seven years at the time of his father's passing. He was 26 years old and ready to step into the role of president of
J.A. Folger & Co."
Of course the fact that there were coins included in the Saddle Ridge Hoard up to 1894 would have to indicate someone other than James added to or deposited additional coins in the "Dirt Bank of Saddle Ridge." Presumably in addition to James A. Folger, II, the two older brothers who apparently continued in "the mining industry" would have had opportunity.
TO ANSWER THE QUESTION POSED IN THE IMMEDIATELY PRECEDING POST, at least one or more of these Folger family members had a source for accumulating the wealth represented by the Saddle Ridge Hoard!
Below is the link for more details on the history of the company that made the cans that contained the coins that were found in the Saddle Ridge Hoard.
By the way, anyone curious about just where the above referenced "Yankee Jims" is located click on the link below or just Goggle "Yankee Jims" and you will see some very interesting saddle ridge features in the captured photographs there in the canyons surrounding the old mining town of Yankee Jims in "gold country!"
Although Folger links to the cans, linking him or his relatives to the gold is a huge stretch. As his coffee / baking powder business was successful, probably these cans were common among the miners in the gold country. James A Folger lived in San Francisco and Oakland after 1853 or so.
According to http://www.nha.org/history/hn/HNmooney-coffee.htm Henry returned to Nantucket, and Edward worked in a whale oil business in San Francisco. So apparently neither Henry nor Edward were miners for long. The article above says James mined for awhile and made one strike. Bought a local store, but sold it and returned to SF by the "end" of the 1850s at age 18 (apparently 1853).
1850 Census records show James' parents (Samuel B Folger and Nancy Folger) in Nantucket, with 5 or 6 children: Samuel B Folger M 54 Nancy Folger F 51 Philip H Folger M 23 Edward P Folger M 21 Henry C Folger M 16 Jane A Folger F 14 Ellery C Folger M 12 Elizabeth H Folger F 19 I suppose if Jane is a typo for James and F is an M, and the census was taken in 1849, this lines up with the dates in the journey to California, and with the statement that James was the second youngest child of 9. (Elizabeth might be a cousin).
There is an 1850 Census record for Edward P Folger in the California gold country, though, too: Edward P Folger American River (middle fork), El Dorado, California, United States Age: 21 Birth Year (Estimated): 1829 Birthplace: Massachusetts
In 1860, he's in Alameda County (near Oakland, CA), married with 3 kids: Edward P Folger M 31 Mass Sarah E Folger F 25 Mass Annie W Folger F 4 Cal Charlotte Folger F 2 Cal Sarah M Folger F 1 Cal
Henry C Folger born 1834 Massachusetts shows up in Brooklyn, NY Census records of 1892, 1905 and 1910, living with his daughter and her kids. I think this rules him out for leaving gold in CA in 1895, if you were still holding out hope.
Thanks for doing some additional digging. As always the more you explore the more questions get raised. Would be of interest to know more about the "strike" and what ties James maintained with miners he became acquainted with back in Yankee Jims. The potentially lucrative San Francisco whale oil business of the one brother adds another source of Folger family accumulated wealth which remains responsive to FadetoBlack's inquiry. Does sound at least like the brothers did live to at least to the date of the last "deposit" in the "Dirt Bank of Saddle Ridge."
As to the cans it would be of interest to confirm, as was implied by McCarthy's disclosure, that there were multiple Folger manufactured "Golden Gate" baking powder cans containing the coins in the hoard which would provide at least a more likely connection to the Folgers than just a single can would.
While Folgers / Golden Gate cans link the company to the cans, they do not link the Folgers brothers to the gold. Probably lots of these cans were in the gold country.
<< <i>While Folgers / Golden Gate cans link the company to the cans, they do not link the Folgers brothers to the gold. Probably lots of these cans were in the gold country. >>
What is intriguing though with regard to the cans is that McCarthy of Kagins has gone on record as to these "deposits" having been made over a period of time. For someone ferrying freshly minted coins from the San Francisco mint out to the hiding place in the hills to be consistently using the same cans is the type of evidence that does raise inferences. Needless to say, the strength of those inferences is subject to differences of opinion and a forensic investigator would not be expected to stop there.
What is also compelling was the sudden and unexpected death of James Folger at the age of 51 before he could make anticipated withdrawals or disclose its location which matches the assumption that many have made that whoever "deposited" these coins met an untimely death. Acknowledgely this still leaves open the separate question as to who made additional "deposits" and whether said person began treating this "account" as his. There seems to be a suggestion based upon McCarthy's additional disclosure that damaged coins were among those most recently added evidencing that these most recently "deposited" coins differed from those of earlier "deposits." This supports the inference that at the end coins were no longer being sourced directly from James due to his death in 1889. The most recently dated coin in the Saddle Ridge Hoard was 1894. Here is the cited statement of McCarthy as reported in the Numismatic News article authored by Dave Harper:
"There was evidence that some of the canisters were dug up and more coins added to the hoard, including damaged coins. He estimated that coins were added to the hoard over a period of 15 or 20 years."
Folks often wonder why such a large amount had been buried over so long a period of time.
Folks today, also do not realize that when "money" is afloat, that things can get very expensive very quickly. Keep in mind that millions of dollars in gold were extracted from the Gold Region of California at $20 an ounce mind you. Some of the miners were very, very wealthy compared to say the folks on a Kansas Farm.
Below is a link to show what costs were associated with being a minor in 1851:
Note that some of the items on the list during 1851 are even more expensive that what those items cost today.
It would not surprise me in the least that this Saddle Ridge hoard was that of a simple minor who distrusted banks.
As for Folger? You do not build a large company/corporation, either in the 1800's or today, without working with and "trusting" banks as Banks are essential in any large business. To even entertain the thought that one of the Folger boys buried this money sounds more like a Jack Trout "tale" than anything else.
BTW, Yankee Jim's. as far as I can tell, no longer exists but there is a Yankee Jim's Road which runs between Colfax and Forest Hill. It is very remote in some locations but then, the only reason for looking it up was in connection with Folger.
I live in a relatively remote location just 7 miles outside of Coloma but then there are literally hundreds of thousand of remote locations in the Gold Country of California. We even have a couple up the road that perfectly fits the description of the finders. They live on a ridge (like everybody else). Have dogs (like everybody else). Came from Southern California (like a lot of people). Work out of their homes (like everybody else).
Next time I run into them, I'll put in a neighborly inquiry.
Nah!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Happened to be out in Cripple Creek today. Had some visiting relatives who wanted to see the Mollie Kathleen gold mine tour.
That region is much like California. Bunch of big mines and thousands of glory holes. I would bet that some of the people who struck it rich there buried some of the proceeds and its still there. Can't prove it, of course.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Happened to be out in Cripple Creek today. Had some visiting relatives who wanted to see the Mollie Kathleen gold mine tour.
That region is much like California. Bunch of big mines and thousands of glory holes. I would bet that some of the people who struck it rich there buried some of the proceeds and its still there. Can't prove it, of course. >>
That sounds like an enjoyable and educational experience. Earlier this year I had a chance to go up into the hills and ridges above Carson City, Nevada including the site of the Comstock Lode in Virginia City. If you look beyond the foreground you can see some of the geographical features in that corner of "Gold County:"
As for Folger? You do not build a large company/corporation, either in the 1800's or today, without working with and "trusting" banks as Banks are essential in any large business. …..
BTW, Yankee Jim's. as far as I can tell, no longer exists but there is a Yankee Jim's Road which runs between Colfax and Forest Hill. It is very remote in some locations but then, the only reason for looking it up was in connection with Folger.
…..
>>
While that assumption is a valid one it is worth noting that the banks in the mid and late 1800's were not the bastions of safety they are today with Federally Insured Deposits. The biographical information provided in the provided links above also reveal that the Folger brothers were not always financially secure . They came to California in 1849 heading for the gold fields with only
enough money to get to San Francisco. At least one of them had a successful strike per the research provided us by a fellow forum member in a responsive post above. One thing that can equally be assumed is that financially successful individual learn to diversify early and you don't put all your "golden" eggs in one basket.
Obviously we would not even be having this discussion with inferences pointing to a large stake of the funds in the hoard potentially having come from one or more of the Folger brothers, one of whom died by a sudden and unexpected death late in the time period represented by the coins "deposited" coupled with the recent disclosure by McCarthy of Kagins that the coins themselves have
now been identified as having been contained in "Golden Gate" baking powder cans. The information I have subsequently provided from my research as contained in the links in my posts above reveals that those cans were manufactured by the company the deceased brother headed.
You are most correct that the Yankee Jim of today as a mining town has seen its time and the link that was previously provided demonstrates the terrain in the surrounding area as being consistent with the "saddle ridge" description that has been given as the close to sole clue released by those selling the hoard. We do know (again from the linked research provided in the prior posts) that
the Folger brother whose company manufactured the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans and who died suddenly at the age of 51 had ties to the now defunct mining town of Yankee Jim out in the California "Gold Country" having spent significant time there before he had success with the coffee business in San Francisco that led to the buying out of his two partners.
Well, having seen coins brought into coin shops in every container imaginable (including old socks), I don't think that the name on a coffee can can be assumed to relate to the person who put the coins in the can. TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Well, having seen coins brought into coin shops in every container imaginable (including old socks), I don't think that the name on a coffee can can be assumed to relate to the person who put the coins in the can. TD >>
Ah - someone hasn't been reading the links.
Coffee can yes, but "Golden Gate" baking powder can that is a whole other "can" of worms.
For conservationists, it might be useful to know that when I subtly probed Dave McCarthy about his conservation techniques, I was able to establish categorically that neither lemon juice nor "New Improved Liquid Dawn" nor the consecrated blood of a freshly killed goat were part of the b!!tchs' brew.
He would neither confirm nor deny cobra venom, naval jelly, balsamic vinegar, aqua regia or tiger piss (a more robust form of thioureic acid). . . . . D
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
<< <i>For conservationists, it might be useful to know that when I subtly probed Dave McCarthy about his conservation techniques, I was able to establish categorically that neither lemon juice nor "New Improved Liquid Dawn" nor the consecrated blood of a freshly killed goat were part of the b!!tchs' brew.
He would neither confirm nor deny cobra venom, naval jelly, balsamic vinegar, aqua regia or tiger piss (a more robust form of thioureic acid). . . . . D >>
Well we do know that four different solutions were used to bathe the Saddle Ridge coins so the four you were unable to eliminate at least match the magic number.
I was just reviewing some of the books authored by Q. David Bowers relating to gold from the Old West as some side research applicable to my posts above regarding the Saddle Ridge Hoard. It was of interest to learn of the original plans to involve internet bidding by Sotheby's for the share of the Central America coins that the insurers were awarded and that Amazon was
going to be instrumental in the internet involvement. (Of course the intended Sotheby's auction itself had to be postponed from 1999 to 2000 due to legal squabbling and it was unclear from Bowers's reporting to what extent, if any, the internet or Amazon were instrumental in creating or contributing to any "Internet-driven market at that time.)
I found it ironic that Amazon, after 14 years, is now back on the stage to "internet-drive" the upcoming market for the Saddle Ridge gold coins sourced primarily from the San Francisco mint in the waning days of the Old West.
Since this research was from a hard copy I am unable to provide a link, but here is a relevant quote from "A California Gold Rush History" authored by Q. David Bowers, page 919 (yes, page 919 - that is not a misprint - this tome is 1,053 pages in length
"Sotheby's had anticipated a marketing advantage by becoming important in internet sales ….. Additionally items for the live auction were selected to be offered through an internet site launched November 19, 1999, by Sotheby's Holdings, Inc. and Amazon.com Inc."
History Repeats itself? Amazon gets back to internet sale of coins after pioneering the idea 14 years ago!
<< <i>I was just reviewing some of the books authored by Q. David Bowers relating to gold from the Old West as some side research applicable to my posts above regarding the Saddle Ridge Hoard. It was of interest to learn of the original plans to involve internet bidding by Sotheby's for the share of the Central America coins that the insurers were awarded and that Amazon was
going to be instrumental in the internet involvement. (Of course the intended Sotheby's auction itself had to be postponed from 1999 to 2000 due to legal squabbling and it was unclear from Bowers's reporting to what extent, if any, the internet or Amazon were instrumental in creating or contributing to any "Internet-driven market at that time.)
I found it ironic that Amazon, after 14 years, is now back on the stage to "internet-drive" the upcoming market for the Saddle Ridge gold coins sourced primarily from the San Francisco mint in the waning days of the Old West.
Since this research was from a hard copy I am unable to provide a link, but here is a relevant quote from "A California Gold Rush History" authored by Q. David Bowers, page 919 (yes, page 919 - that is not a misprint - this tome is 1,053 pages in length
"Sotheby's had anticipated a marketing advantage by becoming important in internet sales ….. Additionally items for the live auction were selected to be offered through an internet site launched November 19, 1999, by Sotheby's Holdings, Inc. and Amazon.com Inc." >>
In response to the inquiry before it was edited, it does appear there is now some updated information on the sale of the coins. First (as has been known for several weeks) the sale will follow the public auction of a single Saddle Ridge Hoard coin Tuesday evening prior to the coins going on sale at midnight Eastern Time.
The Kagin's website does state that a "complete listing" of the coins is available at Kagins.com, however, that appears to still be a work in progress. What is new is the reporting that the value of the Hoard is now being etimated at an amount of 11 million dollars instead of the previously reported 10 million dollars. The highest priced coin will now be over one million rather than at one million dollars (1.2 million). The highest priced coin availabe from the Amazon website will be limited to six figures. Kagins will impliedly market the majority of the six figure (and perhaps the five figure) coins as well. More details should likely be trickling out as the day progresses and the website(s) get updated or perhaps the "complete listing" just will not be posted until the coins go on sale tonight.
Oh, news reports do state that over 100 claims have been made to the hoard, but none deemed legit though at least one claimant threatened to sue and contends he located where the coins were found at a location once owned by his ancestors. Bogus or not the claims likely had to be checked out so that may explain some of the perceived delay in release of information referenced in your post before it was edited.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Agreed and for that reason alone I do not fault the finders/sellers from limiting the information as to their identity and location of the site. I do hope though that once the coins have been sold that we will get "the rest of the story." I assume a Freedom of Information request for the official government documents that likely were generated to allow the U.S. Mint to make their statement that there was no known connection between coins stolen from the mint and this hoard would have to be produced at some point. Other "official documents" may also become available with the possibility of public records even offering clues such as identifying which property searches have been initiated during the relevant time period since the coins were found early in 2013.
About an hour ago, I did a live radio interview on the San Francisco CBS Station regarding the SRH.
They said the interview was so interesting that it went on for 7 minutes, instead of the scheduled 5 minutes.......
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
<< <i>About an hour ago, I did a live radio interview on the San Francisco CBS Station regarding the SRH.
They said the interview was so interesting that it went on for 7 minutes, instead of the scheduled 5 minutes....... >>
Will you be doing an update post sale? Looks like there was a lot of interest in the Bay area with the promo piece going at auction for three times its estimated value.
<< <i>About an hour ago, I did a live radio interview on the San Francisco CBS Station regarding the SRH.
They said the interview was so interesting that it went on for 7 minutes, instead of the scheduled 5 minutes....... >>
Have there been any reportings on the number of coins sold and the total dollars generated now after the first full day of the Saddle Ridge sales to the public?
Answering my own question, I see it is being reported that in the first 24 hours half of the coins have been sold and approximaely 4 million dollars has been committed. Not able to post a link, but source was quoting Don Kagin.
<< <i>About an hour ago, I did a live radio interview on the San Francisco CBS Station regarding the SRH.
They said the interview was so interesting that it went on for 7 minutes, instead of the scheduled 5 minutes....... >>
Will you be doing an update post sale? Looks like there was a lot of interest in the Bay area with the promo piece going at auction for three times its estimated value. >>
Is there any way for someone to set up a link to the audio. Contact the station? Name of the host?
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Colonel, it was the local SF CBS station; there was a male and female on-air host asking me questions.
I don't have their names......
It was live at 9:30 West Coast Time on Tuesday morning....
No, I haven't been contacted since then for an update; doubt that I will be......
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
I just heard from a very reliable source (not Don or David @ Kagins) that over half of the coins have been sold already.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
<< <i>I just heard from a very reliable source (not Don or David @ Kagins) that over half of the coins have been sold already. >>
Thanks for confirming.
Have hardly made an in depth analysis, but just based on the original listings it appears that the top end (excluding the set with the can), and the less available dates and mints such as Carson City and low end coins have gone first with the mid range ones being the laggards - at least for the dates of which there are the most coins represented in the hoard.
(On the Amazon site there is only one "scratched" coin at the lowest price point still listed.)
Edited and updated to add the following excerpt from the just reported by USA Today in their article on the subject of the status of the Saddle Ridge Hoard sales:
"The first of the coins went on sale Tuesday night. Amazon has sold about 400 of the 1,000 coins since the sale started, says David McCarthy, the senior numismatist at Kagin's Inc., the company handling the sale. The coins are selling for $2,500 to $10,000.
Kagin's is selling another 400, which range in price from $10,000 to about $250,000. McCarthy says they have about 70 coins left."
Interestingly it was available for 1.2 million for a short time on the Amazon site. It then disappeared. Much later it resurfaced as part of the special package of 14 coins plus one can for the total sum of 2.75 million dollars.
The package of 14 $20 gold coins includes the 1.2 million dollar 1866-S No Motto in MS62 which is the star of the Saddle Ridge find. The presumably Folger manufactured Golden Gate Baking Powder can it was found in is included. (Note my detailed posts on page 4 of this thread regarding the significance of these Golden Gate Baking Powder cans to the history, and possibly even origin,
of The Saddle Ridge Hoard.)
Also included in the "package" is a single Carson City minted 1890-cc in MS 63. All the rest are San Francisco minted, each either the finest or tied for finest of its date and mint. They include an 1866 motto in MS62, an 1870 in MS62, an 1877 in MS65, an 1878 in MS63, an 1880 in MS64, an 1861 in MS64, an 1882 in MS64+, an 1884 in MS65, an 1889 in MS65, an a890 in MS66+,
an 1892 in MS65+, and an 1894 in MS65. Needless to say all are in PCGS holders and there are some who contend the coins in this hoard have been conservatively graded.
It would be great if someone of means or other entity such as a corporation or foundation could purchase this set intact and then put it on display or even donate it to a museum such as the Smithsonian with the caveat that they must keep it on public display. This would perpetuate the value and "story" of the Saddle Ridge Hoard coins on into the future. Something like this was done
with the 1933 Double Eagle. For the moment though, credit goes to Don Kagin and the finders/owners for even making such a possibility by offering the "set" as a mini-hoard containing the best of the best along with the historic Golden Gate Baking Powder can.
Interestingly it was available for 1.2 million for a short time on the Amazon site. It then disappeared. Much later it resurfaced as part of the special package of 14 coins plus one can for the total sum of 2.75 million dollars.
The package of 14 $20 gold coins includes the 1.2 million dollar 1866-S No Motto in MS62 which is the star of the Saddle Ridge find. The presumably Folger manufactured Golden Gate Baking Powder can it was found in is included. (Note my detailed posts on page 4 of this thread regarding the significance of these Golden Gate Baking Powder cans to the history, and possibly even origin,
of The Saddle Ridge Hoard.)
Also included in the "package" is a single Carson City minted 1890-cc in MS 63. All the rest are San Francisco minted, each either the finest or tied for finest of its date and mint. They include an 1866 motto in MS62, an 1870 in MS62, an 1877 in MS65, an 1878 in MS63, an 1880 in MS64, an 1861 in MS64, an 1882 in MS64+, an 1884 in MS65, an 1889 in MS65, an 1890 in MS66+,
an 1892 in MS65+, and an 1894 in MS65. Needless to say all are in PCGS holders and there are some who contend the coins in this hoard have been conservatively graded.
It would be great if someone of means or other entity such as a corporation or foundation could purchase this set intact and then put it on display or even donate it to a museum such as the Smithsonian with the caveat that they must keep it on public display. This would perpetuate the value and "story" of the Saddle Ridge Hoard coins on into the future. Something like this was done
with the 1933 Double Eagle. For the moment though, credit goes to Don Kagin and the finders/owners for even making such a possibility by offering the "set" as a mini-hoard containing the best of the best along with the historic Golden Gate Baking Powder can. >>
Again, as noted above, it would be great if someone of means or other entity such as a foundation could purchase the set intact and put it on permanent public display (or otherwise donate it to a museum such as the Smithsonian with the caveat that they must keep it on public display. ) This could only enhance the value and "story" of the Saddle Ridge Hoard coins for posterity.
Comments
<< <i>I think I'll pass and see what happens in the aftermarket, those premiums are way too steep for me.
I am glad that the dealer who offered just $40 over melt for for each coin didn't get anything. Sounds way too much like those bottom-feeding hotel setup buyers. >>
Just a wild guess, but one has to question whether part of the premium pricing justification is an expectation by the sellers that gold prices will head over the $2000 an ounce mark at some not too distant point in time as many have predicted. If that happens those who wait to see what happens in the aftermarket may find it a wash and any unsold inventory will become more dear.
One has to believe that the sellers might well be served if at least some of the sales slip into another tax year or two. Kagins' own pricing on the Kagin website seems to adopt this philosophy, at least in part, as many of the coins seem to be maxed as evident from their remaining available over long periods of time apparently waiting for the market to adjust and reach the asked for prices. In other words i don't see John and Mary or their agent sellers Kagins and Amazon in any rush to "dump" the inventory. This alone may well answer the question many first asked as to why these coins did not head to auction in the first place where time would have been of the essence.
(The premise as to delayed sales being an advantage to John and Mary of course assumes that John and Mary have not already consummated a sale to Kagins and/or Amazon and are now otherwise completely out of the picture.)
<< <i>
<< <i>Interesting - did you catch Doug Winter's comment on the coin of your choice in the above linked article? Here is the relevant excerpt:
"I think we will continue to see quite a bit strength in the rarity-driven market as collectors tend to be more interested in coins like 1862-S half eagles in VF than in 1892-S half eagles grading MS64. The market for condition rarities will be more hit or miss. Certain coins, including many of the “top pops” from the Saddle Ridge Hoard, will be eagerly absorbed into collections. Others may prove far harder to sell." >>
I like this coin because it's screams Saddle Ridge and it's a CC. Need to look through the rest to see if any others have the Saddle Ridge look.
Not sure I understand how Winter's comments apply to the 92-CC $5??
Edited for grammer.....
Good catch. Posting after midnight one has a tendency to see an s where there was a cc. >>
I was wondering that too but just chose to let it go at the time. Thanks for bringing it up.
<< <i>friend of mine is anxiously trying to buy one of the Ms66 1886-s $10's recently found in this hoard. I told him that the price will be high, and that he may never gets his premium back, but he is insistant on getting one >>
I guess we could have all taken a cue from TDN's observation at the inception that the coin that was projected to be a million dollar value had in the same grade in a fairly recent auction only gone for approximately half that. Of course with a CAC sticker TDN might have a different view.
Back to my original question - what does Winters comments have to do with the 92-CC $5??
<< <i>friend of mine is anxiously trying to buy one of the Ms66 1886-s $10's recently found in this hoard. I told him that the price will be high, and that he may never gets his premium back, but he is insistant on getting one >>
This is probably why they chose to sell through Amazon. There will be more dumbos willing to overpay there than there may be a Heritage. Would they have been just as well off to sell them to HSN?
Amazon or maybe the Early Bird Speical
A pre-sale on eBay
Would optimistic premiums from new collectors be considered a form of tuition?
<< <i>It's kind of neat these are going through Amazon as it indicates there's interest beyond traditional collectors so it may be a way to grow the hobby.
Would optimistic premiums from new collectors be considered a form of tuition? >>
More likely the interest is from greed driven speculators who think they are going to make a killing reselling the coins. Same ones who get suckered in on HSN.
<< <i>
<< <i>It's kind of neat these are going through Amazon as it indicates there's interest beyond traditional collectors so it may be a way to grow the hobby.
Would optimistic premiums from new collectors be considered a form of tuition? >>
More likely the interest is from greed driven speculators who think they are going to make a killing reselling the coins. Same ones who get suckered in on HSN. >>
If the "premium" is approximately 30% over what those in the hobby would otherwise be willing to pay as suggested by at least one forum member above then the question comes down to whether "the story" that goes with these coins will carry the day. Other hoards such as the Binion and Redford and even the World Trade Center coins could offer some guidance. Does anyone recall what their
premiums were at the inception and how well they held those values once a secondary market developed? The shipwreck coins model merit comparison as well.
Upon further reflection, the World Trade Center gold coins might be the best indicator so it would be interesting to hear WTC forum member chime in.
"McCarthy said he was able to identify the canisters as Golden Gate brand baking powder cans of a style used in the middle 1880s, which was consistent with the dates of the coins in them (1847-1894).
Though he did not reveal where the coins were found, he described the location as in a “fairly remote area near several property lines.” He also said the spot was hidden from view on three sides along a ridge line path that the couple used to walk their dog.
There was evidence that some of the canisters were dug up and more coins added to the hoard, including damaged coins. He estimated that coins were added to the hoard over a period of 15 or 20 years."
"McCarthy said he was able to identify the canisters as Golden Gate brand baking powder cans of a style used in the middle 1880s, which was consistent with the dates of the coins in them (1847-1894).
Though he did not reveal where the coins were found, he described the location as in a “fairly remote area near several property lines.” He also said the spot was hidden from view on three sides along a ridge line path that the couple used to walk their dog.
There was evidence that some of the canisters were dug up and more coins added to the hoard, including damaged coins. He estimated that coins were added to the hoard over a period of 15 or 20 years."
For anyone who wants to delve a little deeper into the "mystery" surrounding the Saddle Ridge Hoard, here is a link to a publication titled, "Archeology of Historical Artifacts" which at page 169 actually describes the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans and their lids having been a product of the Folger company (of Folger coffee fame) in San Francisco and describes their having been
transported to the Sierra Nevada. Noteworthy a complete review of the history and patents related to cans in the rather lengthy publication actually points to the Golden Gate powder cans having first been available later in the century as suggested by McCarthy of Kagins for whatever that is worth.
Scroll to page 169 for specific reference to "Golden Gate" Baking Powder cans in this detailed chronology and history
Well here is one answer that follows from combining two of the clues (the manufacturer of the cans and the ties to the "mining industry."):
Adding to the intrigue, it turns out that the company that manufactured the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans did not come into existence as J.A. Folger and Company until 1872 when James, the younger of the three Folger brothers bought out his partners. Here is the kicker though - all three brothers were involved in gold mining. Certainly an interesting "clue" that would fit with the
Saddle Ridge Hoard coins being the once held property of one or more of the Folger brothers. From the very beginning Kagin has hypothesized that these coins were deposited by someone involved in "the mining industry." Here is an excerpt tying the history of the company that made the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans (as established in my immediately preceding two posts) and their
founders involvement in "the mining industry."
"In the fall of 1849, the family sent James and his two older brothers to the West Coast to mine for gold. The Folger family had enough money to pay for their passage to San Francisco, but was unable to provide enough money for all three boys to travel from there to the mining towns. Therefore 15-year-old James remained in San Francisco to work for his travel costs while his older
brothers proceeded to the mines."
…..
After working at Bovee's mill for nearly a year, James had saved enough money to stake a claim and headed out to mine for gold. He agreed to carry along samples of coffee and spices, taking orders from grocery stores in the mining country until he arrived in a town called Yankee Jim's in 1851.
Upon his return to San Francisco in 1865, James became a full partner of The Pioneer Steam Coffee and Spice Mills. In 1872, James bought out the other partners, renaming the company J.A. Folger & Co.
James married in 1861 and he and his wife had four children, two of whom died. His two remaining children worked for the family business. In June of 1889, at the age of 51, James died of a coronary occlusion. His oldest son, James A. Folger, II, had worked in the company for seven years at the time of his father's passing. He was 26 years old and ready to step into the role of president of
J.A. Folger & Co."
Of course the fact that there were coins included in the Saddle Ridge Hoard up to 1894 would have to indicate someone other than James added to or deposited additional coins in the "Dirt Bank of Saddle Ridge." Presumably in addition to James A. Folger, II, the two older brothers who apparently continued in "the mining industry" would have had opportunity.
TO ANSWER THE QUESTION POSED IN THE IMMEDIATELY PRECEDING POST, at least one or more of these Folger family members had a source for accumulating the wealth represented by the Saddle Ridge Hoard!
Below is the link for more details on the history of the company that made the cans that contained the coins that were found in the Saddle Ridge Hoard.
HIstory of the J.A. Folger Company that made the cans in which the Saddle Ridge coins were found and Gold Mining connection
1. James A. Folger's (who is described in the above post) brothers who travelled with him to California in 1849 for the California Gold Rush were Henry (two years older) and Edward (four years older.)
2. James A. Folger was the uncle of oil baron and founder of the Folger Shakespeare Library Henry Clay Folger who was born in 1857 to Henry, the middle brother.
3. James A. Folger was the great grandfather of Abigail Folger who along with Sharon Tate was murdered by Manson Family members in 1969.
It would be interesting to learn if either of the brothers, Henry or James, died or became incompetent just after the last coins were deposited in the "Dirt Bank of Saddle Ridge" in 1894. The "bank" and its location may have only been shared by James, who met his unexpected sudden demise a few years prior (as described in the above post), and one or more of the other brothers.
It would also be interesting to know if Abigail, had she not been murdered, would now recall stories of her great grandfather having secreted away a portion of his fortune in "Dirt banks" to protect them from the failing real banks of the late 1800s.
(Of course now that the coins have been soaked in at least four different solvents it would be difficult to tie Folger family DNA to the DNA which may have once been on the coins. However there still are those tell tale Folger manufactured "Golden Gate baking powder cans" in which the coins were stored that could be subjected to testing. LOL)
<< <i>"My real question about this is who could basically afford to bury the modern-day equivalent of 1/2 a million bucks and not ever have to come back for it, nor would their descendants/inheritors notice it missing? That's quite a lot of dough"
Well here is one answer that follows from combining two of the clues (the manufacturer of the cans and the ties to the "mining industry."):
Adding to the intrigue, it turns out that the company that manufactured the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans did not come into existence as J.A. Folger and Company until 1872 when James, the younger of the three Folger brothers bought out his partners. Here is the kicker though - all three brothers were involved in gold mining. Certainly an interesting "clue" that would fit with the
Saddle Ridge Hoard coins being the once held property of one or more of the Folger brothers. From the very beginning Kagin has hypothesized that these coins were deposited by someone involved in "the mining industry." Here is an excerpt tying the history of the company that made the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans (as established in my immediately preceding two posts) and their
founders involvement in "the mining industry."
"In the fall of 1849, the family sent James and his two older brothers to the West Coast to mine for gold. The Folger family had enough money to pay for their passage to San Francisco, but was unable to provide enough money for all three boys to travel from there to the mining towns. Therefore 15-year-old James remained in San Francisco to work for his travel costs while his older
brothers proceeded to the mines."
…..
After working at Bovee's mill for nearly a year, James had saved enough money to stake a claim and headed out to mine for gold. He agreed to carry along samples of coffee and spices, taking orders from grocery stores in the mining country until he arrived in a town called Yankee Jim's in 1851.
Upon his return to San Francisco in 1865, James became a full partner of The Pioneer Steam Coffee and Spice Mills. In 1872, James bought out the other partners, renaming the company J.A. Folger & Co.
James married in 1861 and he and his wife had four children, two of whom died. His two remaining children worked for the family business. In June of 1889, at the age of 51, James died of a coronary occlusion. His oldest son, James A. Folger, II, had worked in the company for seven years at the time of his father's passing. He was 26 years old and ready to step into the role of president of
J.A. Folger & Co."
Of course the fact that there were coins included in the Saddle Ridge Hoard up to 1894 would have to indicate someone other than James added to or deposited additional coins in the "Dirt Bank of Saddle Ridge." Presumably in addition to James A. Folger, II, the two older brothers who apparently continued in "the mining industry" would have had opportunity.
TO ANSWER THE QUESTION POSED IN THE IMMEDIATELY PRECEDING POST, at least one or more of these Folger family members had a source for accumulating the wealth represented by the Saddle Ridge Hoard!
Below is the link for more details on the history of the company that made the cans that contained the coins that were found in the Saddle Ridge Hoard.
By the way, anyone curious about just where the above referenced "Yankee Jims" is located click on the link below or just Goggle "Yankee Jims" and you will see some very interesting saddle ridge features in the captured photographs there in the canyons surrounding the old mining town of Yankee Jims in "gold country!"
HIstory of the J.A. Folger Company that made the cans in which the Saddle Ridge coins were found and Gold Mining connection >>
Yankee Jims and the visible saddle ridge nearby
As his coffee / baking powder business was successful, probably these cans were common among the miners in the gold country.
James A Folger lived in San Francisco and Oakland after 1853 or so.
According to
http://www.nha.org/history/hn/HNmooney-coffee.htm
Henry returned to Nantucket,
and Edward worked in a whale oil business in San Francisco.
So apparently neither Henry nor Edward were miners for long.
The article above says James mined for awhile and made one strike.
Bought a local store, but sold it and returned to SF by the "end" of the 1850s at age 18 (apparently 1853).
1850 Census records show James' parents (Samuel B Folger and Nancy Folger) in Nantucket, with 5 or 6 children:
Samuel B Folger M 54
Nancy Folger F 51
Philip H Folger M 23
Edward P Folger M 21
Henry C Folger M 16
Jane A Folger F 14
Ellery C Folger M 12
Elizabeth H Folger F 19
I suppose if Jane is a typo for James and F is an M, and the census was taken in 1849, this lines up with the dates in the journey to California,
and with the statement that James was the second youngest child of 9. (Elizabeth might be a cousin).
There is an 1850 Census record for Edward P Folger in the California gold country, though, too:
Edward P Folger
American River (middle fork), El Dorado, California, United States
Age: 21
Birth Year (Estimated): 1829
Birthplace: Massachusetts
In 1860, he's in Alameda County (near Oakland, CA), married with 3 kids:
Edward P Folger M 31 Mass
Sarah E Folger F 25 Mass
Annie W Folger F 4 Cal
Charlotte Folger F 2 Cal
Sarah M Folger F 1 Cal
Henry C Folger born 1834 Massachusetts shows up in Brooklyn, NY Census records of 1892, 1905 and 1910,
living with his daughter and her kids. I think this rules him out for leaving gold in CA in 1895, if you were still holding out hope.
As to the cans it would be of interest to confirm, as was implied by McCarthy's disclosure, that there were multiple Folger manufactured "Golden Gate" baking powder cans containing the coins in the hoard which would provide at least a more likely connection to the Folgers than just a single can would.
they do not link the Folgers brothers to the gold.
Probably lots of these cans were in the gold country.
<< <i>While Folgers / Golden Gate cans link the company to the cans,
they do not link the Folgers brothers to the gold.
Probably lots of these cans were in the gold country. >>
What is intriguing though with regard to the cans is that McCarthy of Kagins has gone on record as to these "deposits" having been made over a period of time. For someone ferrying freshly minted coins from the San Francisco mint out to the hiding place in the hills to be consistently using the same cans is the type of evidence that does raise inferences. Needless to say, the strength of those inferences is subject to differences of opinion and a forensic investigator would not be expected to stop there.
What is also compelling was the sudden and unexpected death of James Folger at the age of 51 before he could make anticipated withdrawals or disclose its location which matches the assumption that many have made that whoever "deposited" these coins met an untimely death. Acknowledgely this still leaves open the separate question as to who made additional "deposits" and whether said person began treating this "account" as his. There seems to be a suggestion based upon McCarthy's additional disclosure that damaged coins were among those most recently added evidencing that these most recently "deposited" coins differed from those of earlier "deposits." This supports the inference that at the end coins were no longer being sourced directly from James due to his death in 1889. The most recently dated coin in the Saddle Ridge Hoard was 1894. Here is the cited statement of McCarthy as reported in the Numismatic News article authored by Dave Harper:
"There was evidence that some of the canisters were dug up and more coins added to the hoard, including damaged coins. He estimated that coins were added to the hoard over a period of 15 or 20 years."
Folks today, also do not realize that when "money" is afloat, that things can get very expensive very quickly. Keep in mind that millions of dollars in gold were extracted from the Gold Region of California at $20 an ounce mind you. Some of the miners were very, very wealthy compared to say the folks on a Kansas Farm.
Below is a link to show what costs were associated with being a minor in 1851:
1851 Prices
Note that some of the items on the list during 1851 are even more expensive that what those items cost today.
It would not surprise me in the least that this Saddle Ridge hoard was that of a simple minor who distrusted banks.
As for Folger? You do not build a large company/corporation, either in the 1800's or today, without working with and "trusting" banks as Banks are essential in any large business. To even entertain the thought that one of the Folger boys buried this money sounds more like a Jack Trout "tale" than anything else.
BTW, Yankee Jim's. as far as I can tell, no longer exists but there is a Yankee Jim's Road which runs between Colfax and Forest Hill. It is very remote in some locations but then, the only reason for looking it up was in connection with Folger.
I live in a relatively remote location just 7 miles outside of Coloma but then there are literally hundreds of thousand of remote locations in the Gold Country of California. We even have a couple up the road that perfectly fits the description of the finders. They live on a ridge (like everybody else). Have dogs (like everybody else). Came from Southern California (like a lot of people). Work out of their homes (like everybody else).
Next time I run into them, I'll put in a neighborly inquiry.
Nah!
The name is LEE!
That region is much like California. Bunch of big mines and thousands of glory holes. I would bet that some of the people who struck it rich there buried some of the proceeds and its still there. Can't prove it, of course.
<< <i>Happened to be out in Cripple Creek today. Had some visiting relatives who wanted to see the Mollie Kathleen gold mine tour.
That region is much like California. Bunch of big mines and thousands of glory holes. I would bet that some of the people who struck it rich there buried some of the proceeds and its still there. Can't prove it, of course. >>
That sounds like an enjoyable and educational experience. Earlier this year I had a chance to go up into the hills and ridges above Carson City, Nevada including the site of the Comstock Lode in Virginia City. If you look beyond the foreground you can see some of the geographical features in that corner of "Gold County:"
<< <i> …..
As for Folger? You do not build a large company/corporation, either in the 1800's or today, without working with and "trusting" banks as Banks are essential in any large business. …..
BTW, Yankee Jim's. as far as I can tell, no longer exists but there is a Yankee Jim's Road which runs between Colfax and Forest Hill. It is very remote in some locations but then, the only reason for looking it up was in connection with Folger.
…..
>>
While that assumption is a valid one it is worth noting that the banks in the mid and late 1800's were not the bastions of safety they are today with Federally Insured Deposits. The biographical information provided in the provided links above also reveal that the Folger brothers were not always financially secure . They came to California in 1849 heading for the gold fields with only
enough money to get to San Francisco. At least one of them had a successful strike per the research provided us by a fellow forum member in a responsive post above. One thing that can equally be assumed is that financially successful individual learn to diversify early and you don't put all your "golden" eggs in one basket.
Obviously we would not even be having this discussion with inferences pointing to a large stake of the funds in the hoard potentially having come from one or more of the Folger brothers, one of whom died by a sudden and unexpected death late in the time period represented by the coins "deposited" coupled with the recent disclosure by McCarthy of Kagins that the coins themselves have
now been identified as having been contained in "Golden Gate" baking powder cans. The information I have subsequently provided from my research as contained in the links in my posts above reveals that those cans were manufactured by the company the deceased brother headed.
You are most correct that the Yankee Jim of today as a mining town has seen its time and the link that was previously provided demonstrates the terrain in the surrounding area as being consistent with the "saddle ridge" description that has been given as the close to sole clue released by those selling the hoard. We do know (again from the linked research provided in the prior posts) that
the Folger brother whose company manufactured the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans and who died suddenly at the age of 51 had ties to the now defunct mining town of Yankee Jim out in the California "Gold Country" having spent significant time there before he had success with the coffee business in San Francisco that led to the buying out of his two partners.
TD
<< <i>Well, having seen coins brought into coin shops in every container imaginable (including old socks), I don't think that the name on a coffee can can be assumed to relate to the person who put the coins in the can.
TD >>
Ah - someone hasn't been reading the links.
Coffee can yes, but "Golden Gate" baking powder can that is a whole other "can" of worms.
He would neither confirm nor deny cobra venom, naval jelly, balsamic vinegar, aqua regia or tiger piss (a more robust form of thioureic acid). . . . . D
<< <i>For conservationists, it might be useful to know that when I subtly probed Dave McCarthy about his conservation techniques, I was able to establish categorically that neither lemon juice nor "New Improved Liquid Dawn" nor the consecrated blood of a freshly killed goat were part of the b!!tchs' brew.
He would neither confirm nor deny cobra venom, naval jelly, balsamic vinegar, aqua regia or tiger piss (a more robust form of thioureic acid). . . . . D >>
Well we do know that four different solutions were used to bathe the Saddle Ridge coins so the four you were unable to eliminate at least match the magic number.
going to be instrumental in the internet involvement. (Of course the intended Sotheby's auction itself had to be postponed from 1999 to 2000 due to legal squabbling and it was unclear from Bowers's reporting to what extent, if any, the internet or Amazon were instrumental in creating or contributing to any "Internet-driven market at that time.)
I found it ironic that Amazon, after 14 years, is now back on the stage to "internet-drive" the upcoming market for the Saddle Ridge gold coins sourced primarily from the San Francisco mint in the waning days of the Old West.
Since this research was from a hard copy I am unable to provide a link, but here is a relevant quote from "A California Gold Rush History" authored by Q. David Bowers, page 919 (yes, page 919 - that is not a misprint - this tome is 1,053 pages in length
"Sotheby's had anticipated a marketing advantage by becoming important in internet sales ….. Additionally items for the live auction were selected to be offered through an internet site launched November 19, 1999, by Sotheby's Holdings, Inc. and Amazon.com Inc."
History Repeats itself? Amazon gets back to internet sale of coins after pioneering the idea 14 years ago!
<< <i>I was just reviewing some of the books authored by Q. David Bowers relating to gold from the Old West as some side research applicable to my posts above regarding the Saddle Ridge Hoard. It was of interest to learn of the original plans to involve internet bidding by Sotheby's for the share of the Central America coins that the insurers were awarded and that Amazon was
going to be instrumental in the internet involvement. (Of course the intended Sotheby's auction itself had to be postponed from 1999 to 2000 due to legal squabbling and it was unclear from Bowers's reporting to what extent, if any, the internet or Amazon were instrumental in creating or contributing to any "Internet-driven market at that time.)
I found it ironic that Amazon, after 14 years, is now back on the stage to "internet-drive" the upcoming market for the Saddle Ridge gold coins sourced primarily from the San Francisco mint in the waning days of the Old West.
Since this research was from a hard copy I am unable to provide a link, but here is a relevant quote from "A California Gold Rush History" authored by Q. David Bowers, page 919 (yes, page 919 - that is not a misprint - this tome is 1,053 pages in length
"Sotheby's had anticipated a marketing advantage by becoming important in internet sales ….. Additionally items for the live auction were selected to be offered through an internet site launched November 19, 1999, by Sotheby's Holdings, Inc. and Amazon.com Inc." >>
<< <i> >>
In response to the inquiry before it was edited, it does appear there is now some updated information on the sale of the coins. First (as has been known for several weeks) the sale will follow the public auction of a single Saddle Ridge Hoard coin Tuesday evening prior to the coins going on sale at midnight Eastern Time.
The Kagin's website does state that a "complete listing" of the coins is available at Kagins.com, however, that appears to still be a work in progress. What is new is the reporting that the value of the Hoard is now being etimated at an amount of 11 million dollars instead of the previously reported 10 million dollars. The highest priced coin will now be over one million rather than at one million dollars (1.2 million). The highest priced coin availabe from the Amazon website will be limited to six figures. Kagins will impliedly market the majority of the six figure (and perhaps the five figure) coins as well. More details should likely be trickling out as the day progresses and the website(s) get updated or perhaps the "complete listing" just will not be posted until the coins go on sale tonight.
Oh, news reports do state that over 100 claims have been made to the hoard, but none deemed legit though at least one claimant threatened to sue and contends he located where the coins were found at a location once owned by his ancestors. Bogus or not the claims likely had to be checked out so that may explain some of the perceived delay in release of information referenced in your post before it was edited.
on the San Francisco CBS Station regarding
the SRH.
They said the interview was so interesting that
it went on for 7 minutes, instead of the scheduled
5 minutes.......
<< <i>About an hour ago, I did a live radio interview
on the San Francisco CBS Station regarding
the SRH.
They said the interview was so interesting that
it went on for 7 minutes, instead of the scheduled
5 minutes....... >>
Will you be doing an update post sale? Looks like there was a lot of interest in the Bay area with the promo piece going at auction for three times its estimated value.
<< <i>About an hour ago, I did a live radio interview
on the San Francisco CBS Station regarding
the SRH.
They said the interview was so interesting that
it went on for 7 minutes, instead of the scheduled
5 minutes....... >>
Have there been any reportings on the number of coins sold and the total dollars generated now after the first full day of the Saddle Ridge sales to the public?
<< <i> >>
Answering my own question, I see it is being reported that in the first 24 hours half of the coins have been sold and approximaely 4 million dollars has been committed. Not able to post a link, but source was quoting Don Kagin.
<< <i>
<< <i>About an hour ago, I did a live radio interview
on the San Francisco CBS Station regarding
the SRH.
They said the interview was so interesting that
it went on for 7 minutes, instead of the scheduled
5 minutes....... >>
Will you be doing an update post sale? Looks like there was a lot of interest in the Bay area with the promo piece going at auction for three times its estimated value. >>
Is there any way for someone to set up a link to the audio. Contact the station? Name of the host?
there was a male and female on-air host
asking me questions.
I don't have their names......
It was live at 9:30 West Coast Time
on Tuesday morning....
No, I haven't been contacted since then
for an update; doubt that I will be......
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
(not Don or David @ Kagins) that over
half of the coins have been sold already.
<< <i>I just heard from a very reliable source
(not Don or David @ Kagins) that over
half of the coins have been sold already. >>
Thanks for confirming.
Have hardly made an in depth analysis, but just based on the original listings it appears that the top end (excluding the set with the can), and the less available dates and mints such as Carson City and low end coins have gone first with the mid range ones being the laggards - at least for the dates of which there are the most coins represented in the hoard.
(On the Amazon site there is only one "scratched" coin at the lowest price point still listed.)
Edited and updated to add the following excerpt from the just reported by USA Today in their article on the subject of the status of the Saddle Ridge Hoard sales:
"The first of the coins went on sale Tuesday night. Amazon has sold about 400 of the 1,000 coins since the sale started, says David McCarthy, the senior numismatist at Kagin's Inc., the company handling the sale. The coins are selling for $2,500 to $10,000.
Kagin's is selling another 400, which range in price from $10,000 to about $250,000. McCarthy says they have about 70 coins left."
<< <i>did they sell the $1.2mil coin? >>
Interestingly it was available for 1.2 million for a short time on the Amazon site. It then disappeared. Much later it resurfaced as part of the special package of 14 coins plus one can for the total sum of 2.75 million dollars.
The package of 14 $20 gold coins includes the 1.2 million dollar 1866-S No Motto in MS62 which is the star of the Saddle Ridge find. The presumably Folger manufactured Golden Gate Baking Powder can it was found in is included. (Note my detailed posts on page 4 of this thread regarding the significance of these Golden Gate Baking Powder cans to the history, and possibly even origin,
of The Saddle Ridge Hoard.)
Also included in the "package" is a single Carson City minted 1890-cc in MS 63. All the rest are San Francisco minted, each either the finest or tied for finest of its date and mint. They include an 1866 motto in MS62, an 1870 in MS62, an 1877 in MS65, an 1878 in MS63, an 1880 in MS64, an 1861 in MS64, an 1882 in MS64+, an 1884 in MS65, an 1889 in MS65, an a890 in MS66+,
an 1892 in MS65+, and an 1894 in MS65. Needless to say all are in PCGS holders and there are some who contend the coins in this hoard have been conservatively graded.
It would be great if someone of means or other entity such as a corporation or foundation could purchase this set intact and then put it on display or even donate it to a museum such as the Smithsonian with the caveat that they must keep it on public display. This would perpetuate the value and "story" of the Saddle Ridge Hoard coins on into the future. Something like this was done
with the 1933 Double Eagle. For the moment though, credit goes to Don Kagin and the finders/owners for even making such a possibility by offering the "set" as a mini-hoard containing the best of the best along with the historic Golden Gate Baking Powder can.
<< <i>
<< <i>did they sell the $1.2mil coin? >>
Interestingly it was available for 1.2 million for a short time on the Amazon site. It then disappeared. Much later it resurfaced as part of the special package of 14 coins plus one can for the total sum of 2.75 million dollars.
The package of 14 $20 gold coins includes the 1.2 million dollar 1866-S No Motto in MS62 which is the star of the Saddle Ridge find. The presumably Folger manufactured Golden Gate Baking Powder can it was found in is included. (Note my detailed posts on page 4 of this thread regarding the significance of these Golden Gate Baking Powder cans to the history, and possibly even origin,
of The Saddle Ridge Hoard.)
Also included in the "package" is a single Carson City minted 1890-cc in MS 63. All the rest are San Francisco minted, each either the finest or tied for finest of its date and mint. They include an 1866 motto in MS62, an 1870 in MS62, an 1877 in MS65, an 1878 in MS63, an 1880 in MS64, an 1861 in MS64, an 1882 in MS64+, an 1884 in MS65, an 1889 in MS65, an 1890 in MS66+,
an 1892 in MS65+, and an 1894 in MS65. Needless to say all are in PCGS holders and there are some who contend the coins in this hoard have been conservatively graded.
It would be great if someone of means or other entity such as a corporation or foundation could purchase this set intact and then put it on display or even donate it to a museum such as the Smithsonian with the caveat that they must keep it on public display. This would perpetuate the value and "story" of the Saddle Ridge Hoard coins on into the future. Something like this was done
with the 1933 Double Eagle. For the moment though, credit goes to Don Kagin and the finders/owners for even making such a possibility by offering the "set" as a mini-hoard containing the best of the best along with the historic Golden Gate Baking Powder can. >>
Again, as noted above, it would be great if someone of means or other entity such as a foundation could purchase the set intact and put it on permanent public display (or otherwise donate it to a museum such as the Smithsonian with the caveat that they must keep it on public display. ) This could only enhance the value and "story" of the Saddle Ridge Hoard coins for posterity.