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PCGS Meets with Congress. Please support this new bill.
DonWillis
Posts: 961 ✭✭✭
For immediate release
July 9, 2012
News media contacts:
Don Willis, (800) 447-8848 x 1154
Armen Vartian, (310) 372-1355
PCGS Gives Congressmen A
Close Look At Counterfeiting Problems
(Washington, DC) – During June 27, 2012 meetings with numismatic leaders in Washington, DC, influential U.S. Congressmen and congressional staff members learned about rare coin authentication and were shown examples of counterfeit coins from the Professional Coin Grading Service (www.PCGS.com) reference collection and examples of counterfeit PCGS encapsulation holders. PCGS has detected over 5,500 counterfeit coins submitted in the last 12 months, a higher number by far than in any previous 12-month period.
“The Congressmen and staff members were impressed with what they heard and saw as we explained the frightening detail counterfeiters have been able to achieve and the need to bring anti-counterfeiting laws up to date to combat the problems,” said PCGS attorney Armen Vartian who made a presentation with other PCGS delegates at the meetings.
Vartian met with Rep. Fred Upton (R-Michigan), Chairman of the U.S. House Energy and Commerce Committee, Lloyd Doggett (D-Texas), a member of the House Ways and Means Committee and staff members for other Congressmen including Howard Berman (D-California), the second ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee.
“It was a very successful series of meetings. The Congressmen and staff members focused on the items we brought; actual counterfeit coins and counterfeit holders, and heard about the on-going efforts by PCGS to combat dealers who sell fake coins and holders. We also talked about educating collectors and dealers. But now the numismatic community must come together and urge other members of Congress to support and approve changes to the law.”
Those proposed changes are in HR5977, the Collectible Coin Protection Act of 2012, a bill that would amend and significantly strengthen the Hobby Protection Act of 1973. The Washington meetings were aimed at educating members of Congress about the counterfeiting problems and the need for stronger laws.
“Every collector, every dealer, should personally contact their Congressional representatives now and specifically request they support HR5977,” Vartian emphasized. “There are several very positive elements in the bill (HR5977) for PCGS and for all collectors and dealers who buy and sell PCGS-certified coins. One provision provides for triple damages for counterfeiting third-party holders such as the patented, sonically-sealed PCGS tamper-evident holders,” said Don Willis, PCGS President.
HR5977 was introduced on June 20 by Congressman Lamar Smith (R-Texas), Chairman of the U.S. House Judiciary Committee, and co-sponsored by Congressman Upton.
The Washington meetings were organized by the Gold & Silver Political Action Committee. In addition to PCGS, representatives of the Industry Council for Tangible Assets (ICTA), the Professional Numismatists Guild (PNG) and Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC) also attended along with former Louisiana Congressman Jimmy Hayes, a long-time collector.
The Hobby Protection Act, first enacted in 1973 and amended in 1988, requires manufacturers and importers of imitation numismatic items to mark them plainly and permanently with the word, "COPY." The Collectible Coin Protection Act would expand and strengthen the consumer protections to provide remedies against sellers of such items and others who substantially assist them. It also would increase penalties for fake coins fraudulently sold inside counterfeit grading service holders.
Barry Stuppler, Chairman of the Gold & Silver PAC, said if approved by Congress and signed into law by the President the new law would:
1) Include not only the distribution but also the sale in commerce of prohibited items;
2) Add a provision expanding the Hobby Protection Act to include "any person who provides substantial assistance or support to any manufacturer, importer, or seller" knowingly engaging in any act or practice that violates the Act;
3) Expand the venue for legal action to include not just having an agent present, to include "transacts business" -- or wherever venue is proper under section 1391 of Title 28, United States Code;" -- and
4) Add a section on Trademark violations specifically written to include the certification services and adds remedies to the Hobby Protection Act that currently exist under the Trademark Act of 1946 (U.S.C. Title 15, Sections 1116-1118) for violations of the Hobby Protection Act.
In a statement prior to the meetings, Willis stated: “Chinese counterfeiting is the most serious challenge faced not only by the collectibles markets and brand name products, but also by the United States Treasury. Entire industries have sprung up in China to manufacture virtually anything made in America including U.S. Government issued coins. These factories and industries operate in the open and with the full support of the Chinese government. By its lack of action to stop the activities, the Chinese government endorses the counterfeiting of U.S. coins.”
"Even worse, Customs and the U.S. Government do little to stop counterfeits from entering the U.S. Once in the US little effort is made to arrest and prosecute individuals selling counterfeit material. Consequently the U.S. has been flooded with counterfeit products, including coins, resulting in the loss of billions of dollars in revenue each year,” Willis explained.
Since its founding in 1986, PCGS experts have authenticated, graded and certified more than 23 million coins from around the world with a declared value of over $26 billion. For additional information, visit www.PCGS.com or call PCGS Customer Service at (800) 447-8848.
###
July 9, 2012
News media contacts:
Don Willis, (800) 447-8848 x 1154
Armen Vartian, (310) 372-1355
PCGS Gives Congressmen A
Close Look At Counterfeiting Problems
(Washington, DC) – During June 27, 2012 meetings with numismatic leaders in Washington, DC, influential U.S. Congressmen and congressional staff members learned about rare coin authentication and were shown examples of counterfeit coins from the Professional Coin Grading Service (www.PCGS.com) reference collection and examples of counterfeit PCGS encapsulation holders. PCGS has detected over 5,500 counterfeit coins submitted in the last 12 months, a higher number by far than in any previous 12-month period.
“The Congressmen and staff members were impressed with what they heard and saw as we explained the frightening detail counterfeiters have been able to achieve and the need to bring anti-counterfeiting laws up to date to combat the problems,” said PCGS attorney Armen Vartian who made a presentation with other PCGS delegates at the meetings.
Vartian met with Rep. Fred Upton (R-Michigan), Chairman of the U.S. House Energy and Commerce Committee, Lloyd Doggett (D-Texas), a member of the House Ways and Means Committee and staff members for other Congressmen including Howard Berman (D-California), the second ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee.
“It was a very successful series of meetings. The Congressmen and staff members focused on the items we brought; actual counterfeit coins and counterfeit holders, and heard about the on-going efforts by PCGS to combat dealers who sell fake coins and holders. We also talked about educating collectors and dealers. But now the numismatic community must come together and urge other members of Congress to support and approve changes to the law.”
Those proposed changes are in HR5977, the Collectible Coin Protection Act of 2012, a bill that would amend and significantly strengthen the Hobby Protection Act of 1973. The Washington meetings were aimed at educating members of Congress about the counterfeiting problems and the need for stronger laws.
“Every collector, every dealer, should personally contact their Congressional representatives now and specifically request they support HR5977,” Vartian emphasized. “There are several very positive elements in the bill (HR5977) for PCGS and for all collectors and dealers who buy and sell PCGS-certified coins. One provision provides for triple damages for counterfeiting third-party holders such as the patented, sonically-sealed PCGS tamper-evident holders,” said Don Willis, PCGS President.
HR5977 was introduced on June 20 by Congressman Lamar Smith (R-Texas), Chairman of the U.S. House Judiciary Committee, and co-sponsored by Congressman Upton.
The Washington meetings were organized by the Gold & Silver Political Action Committee. In addition to PCGS, representatives of the Industry Council for Tangible Assets (ICTA), the Professional Numismatists Guild (PNG) and Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC) also attended along with former Louisiana Congressman Jimmy Hayes, a long-time collector.
The Hobby Protection Act, first enacted in 1973 and amended in 1988, requires manufacturers and importers of imitation numismatic items to mark them plainly and permanently with the word, "COPY." The Collectible Coin Protection Act would expand and strengthen the consumer protections to provide remedies against sellers of such items and others who substantially assist them. It also would increase penalties for fake coins fraudulently sold inside counterfeit grading service holders.
Barry Stuppler, Chairman of the Gold & Silver PAC, said if approved by Congress and signed into law by the President the new law would:
1) Include not only the distribution but also the sale in commerce of prohibited items;
2) Add a provision expanding the Hobby Protection Act to include "any person who provides substantial assistance or support to any manufacturer, importer, or seller" knowingly engaging in any act or practice that violates the Act;
3) Expand the venue for legal action to include not just having an agent present, to include "transacts business" -- or wherever venue is proper under section 1391 of Title 28, United States Code;" -- and
4) Add a section on Trademark violations specifically written to include the certification services and adds remedies to the Hobby Protection Act that currently exist under the Trademark Act of 1946 (U.S.C. Title 15, Sections 1116-1118) for violations of the Hobby Protection Act.
In a statement prior to the meetings, Willis stated: “Chinese counterfeiting is the most serious challenge faced not only by the collectibles markets and brand name products, but also by the United States Treasury. Entire industries have sprung up in China to manufacture virtually anything made in America including U.S. Government issued coins. These factories and industries operate in the open and with the full support of the Chinese government. By its lack of action to stop the activities, the Chinese government endorses the counterfeiting of U.S. coins.”
"Even worse, Customs and the U.S. Government do little to stop counterfeits from entering the U.S. Once in the US little effort is made to arrest and prosecute individuals selling counterfeit material. Consequently the U.S. has been flooded with counterfeit products, including coins, resulting in the loss of billions of dollars in revenue each year,” Willis explained.
Since its founding in 1986, PCGS experts have authenticated, graded and certified more than 23 million coins from around the world with a declared value of over $26 billion. For additional information, visit www.PCGS.com or call PCGS Customer Service at (800) 447-8848.
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0
Comments
Thank you Don and PCGS!
Will be drafting a note to my representatives this week.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Could your attorney draft a letter with what is needed in it so members could copy and paste to send to our elected members of Congress?
Just not sure what the wording should be,
Caleb
You have to use reverse psychology on some of these politicians and if you want them to support it, you have to tell them to vote against it.
Edit to add: I am for strengthening the integrity of the hobby. That means I am FOR HR5977.
I am a member in good standing and I support PROTECTING the hobby.
God knows , I've been taken enough
peacockcoins
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
<< <i>Mr. Willis,
Could your attorney draft a letter with what is needed in it so members could copy and paste to send to our elected members of Congress?
Just not sure what the wording should be,
Caleb >>
I'm in this boat.
type2,CCHunter.
PCGS, you face a very uphill battle. Companies like Gucci, Louis Vuitton, Tiffany, etc. have been fighting this battle for years with no success. Just walk down Canal St. in NYC and see what you can buy.
Perhaps an "errant" cruise missile hitting one of the Chinese factories will get the message across.
That's true , but it will make the US based traders of these fakes think twice before putting them on the market.Obviously the country is already flooded with high quality fakes,updated laws and sentences might just be the way to go.Currently if a fake is on let's say Ebay..the worst that can happen is the auction is taken down.The threat of a knock on the door can be a great deterrent.
"Even worse, Customs and the U.S. Government do little to stop counterfeits from entering the U.S. Once in the US little effort is made to arrest and prosecute individuals selling counterfeit material. Consequently the U.S. has been flooded with counterfeit products, including coins, resulting in the loss of billions of dollars in revenue each year,” Willis explained. >>>
PCGS and all involved should certainly be commended for initiating these meetings and doing everything they possibly can do to combat this huge issue facing the hobby and industry.
However, far larger corporations worldwide have been trying for decades now to combat all the counterfeit garbage that comes out of china with little to no success, and some have subsequently pretty much just given up. China is BY FAR the world's leader in the production and export of counterfeit / replica / fake / knockoff goods and it's true that the Chinese govt. does virtually nothing about it. In fact, I've read the Chinese courts will often times actually find for the defendants when corporations have taken the time and huge expense to sue those producing these counterfeit goods. Just as an example, Rolex now estimates there are up to 15 mostly Chinese made counterfeit 'Rolex' watches circulating worldwide for every genuine one. There are now even numerous websites in the US and Europe that sell nothing but counterfeit luxury watches and other goods. Many other items such as designer leather goods, designer clothing, electronics, software, media, currency, and nearly everything else you could possibly imagine (even poison laced baby formula) is now widely counterfeited in china and exported for worldwide distribution with the US being a prime market.
One thing that now has the pharma giants very concerned is china's massive production and export of counterfeit prescription drugs which are typically sold over the internet. These counterfeit drugs are responsible for thousands of deaths as many of them are either completely ineffective and/or may contain highly poisonous ingredients. The same goes for pet foods made in china.......there have been hundreds of incidents of poison laced pet foods/pet treats originating from china.
This amounts to nothing less than worldwide economic terrorism on china's part as their counterfeit industry costs corporations worldwide many billions of dollars each year.
In addition, since Homeland Security now only catches and confiscates a very small percentage of all this Chinese made garbage that comes into the US daily, I believe that items such as collectible coins and such would be considered very low on the list of priorities which is unfortunate for us. Any new laws passed would of course be slightly helpful, but the real problem and ultimate solution begins and ends with the Chinese govt, not in congress or Homeland Security IMO. The only thing the US govt. has done is award china with our most favored nation status.
<< <i>Unfortunately, any US law will have little, if any effect, on the Chinese counterfeiters.
PCGS, you face a very uphill battle. Companies like Gucci, Louis Vuitton, Tiffany, etc. have been fighting this battle for years with no success. Just walk down Canal St. in NYC and see what you can buy.
Perhaps an "errant" cruise missile hitting one of the Chinese factories will get the message across. >>
Perhaps it is time for all the industries affected to join together! It just amazes me at the lengths these Chinese Counterfeiters go to to get their crap sold.
I purchased a coin from a person in England on ebay. I received the coin 2 days later from a Chineese dude in Ohio! Of course my $500 coin was counterfeit! If it had not been for my upstanding reputation with ebay...I would have lost my money. I couldn't return the coin to Ohio...I had to ship it registered to England to the account holders address. Needless to say the coin was never claimed in England...but I was lucky as ebay saw through the scam!
<< <i>no offense to PCGS or any individual but Congress' time would be better spent signing a MASSIVE Jobs Bill into Law instead of worrying about a minute segment of the economy that affects an even smaller segment of the population. >>
By saving people from taking losses on counterfeits from china we are gonna stimulate the economy here. Why you ask, well when people that work for a living spend money only to find out they've been duped are more reluctant to spend more money. Then the money taken not being shipped back to some counterfeiting operation to get more coins to supply the chain of rip offs. Instead, it goes to some one who is hopefully reputable who will then spend it here in the united states and there for stimulate are economy. People always fall to realize the bigger picture of the scam.
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>
<< <i>no offense to PCGS or any individual but Congress' time would be better spent signing a MASSIVE Jobs Bill into Law instead of worrying about a minute segment of the economy that affects an even smaller segment of the population. >>
By saving people from taking losses on counterfeits from china we are gonna stimulate the economy here. Why you ask, well when people that work for a living spend money only to find out they've been duped are more reluctant to spend more money. Then the money taken not being shipped back to some counterfeiting operation to get more coins to supply the chain of rip offs. Instead, it goes to some one who is hopefully reputable who will then spend it here in the united states and there for stimulate are economy. People always fall to realize the bigger picture of the scam. >>
He needs to look at the big picture....not just coins!
<< <i>no offense to PCGS or any individual but Congress' time would be better spent signing a MASSIVE Jobs Bill into Law instead of worrying about a minute segment of the economy that affects an even smaller segment of the population. >>
How well did the last two that the government passed work out for you?
The best thing the Government could do is stay out of the way of private business.
This is exactly what our officials should be working on, protect our citizens from rip off artist
<< <i>no offense to PCGS or any individual but Congress' time would be better spent signing a MASSIVE Jobs Bill into Law instead of worrying about a minute segment of the economy that affects an even smaller segment of the population. >>
Congress does more than one thing at once all the time. It doesn't seem like it most of the time but it's true.
What amazes me is that last week, there was a thread seemingly against this effort. The originator...IIRC, stated that SINCE HE COULD TELL A FAKE FROM THE REAL THING, there was no need
to stamp copy on the coin. The hell with the rest of the people. What he wanted was important. He needed to 'protect' his investment in his counterfeit collection of coins.
And since there are presumably many many sophisticated collectors who have sizeable investments in the "HISTORICALLY SIGNIFICANT" counterfeit arena of coins--this new law will negatively impact them.
I say ZERO TOLERANCE for fakes.
And it starts with the US Govt. sending a message to China. Remember not all fake items come from China. Some would say that the micro O Morgans came from Spain during the Depression when silver was at 35cents an ounce and coining the Morgans was profitable at face value.
I am vehemently opposed to the counterfeit industry that has sprung up in China. Anything you can do to hinder it is PATRIOTIC & just plain SMART.
The problem is our government is brain dead. I read a story not long ago about counterfeit electronic components causing problems in our military aircraft. How stupid is that - buying components for our military from China?
In my opinion, counterfeiting poses the single greatest threat to this hobby- period!
Just imagine the jolt to the credibility of this 'hobby' when the market is flooded with high quality (fake) coins which are 'authenticated' in HIGH QUALITY FAKE third party holders- claiming these coins are authentic and collectable..... ( we're almost there IMO).
Do you think a new collector is going to want to gamble their hard earned money in that mine field? I don't think so.....
Maybe some of the seasoned pro's aren't too worried about this because they feel they're too smart to be fooled. Well, there aren't enough of these saavy pros to keep this hobby afloat in the years ahead? Without lots of new young collectors with money and faith that the products their investing in are authentic/genuine this hobby could lose a much needed base of financial support!!
Just my 2 cents
Edited for grammar and tact
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.<< <i>I guess DCarr will be out of business if this passes. >>
Do you think this bill would do that ? I don't think so.
the text
Regardless of the above questions, I agree that counterfeit products coming into the USA from other parts of the world (mostly from China where they are manufactured) is a huge problem that hurts businesses that try to operate within the law. Counterfeiting in coin collecting is a mere drop in the ocean compared to other industries.
I have no real life experience in this area, but I suspect that even if the Communist Chinese government did not exist and China functioned under a different political system the problem with Chinese counterfeits would still exist. China has been around for multiple thousands of years, functioning at a highly organized level long before other parts of the world developed into viable nation states. China has been referred to as the "Heavenly Kingdom" and has long looked down upon peoples and the world outside of its borders as inferior and beneath China. That mindset probably continues to exist to this day and the Communist Chinese leadership likely has the same mindset. Such a mindset is probably one of the reasons why China sees no problem with its counterfeiting activities.
The thing that is curious however is why China would be content with simply copying products (i.e. a Rolex watch, a PCGS holder, a US Trade dollar, a Gucchi handbag, etc.) made by non Chinese persons and companies that are inferior to and beneath China.
Would not China's view that is is "superior" compel it, its companies and its citizens to want to invent/create Chinese products that are wholly Chinese and demonstrably better than any similar non Chinese product that is out there in the marketplace?
I am not aware of any Chinese created, designed, produced and sold product that is a "must have" item in the worldwide marketplace [i.e. a Chinese watch that is equal to or better than Rolex]. Are there any such products?
You only need browse walmart to answer that. I was in Savanah some years ago ..3 or 4 when they took delivery of huge dockyard cranes , made in china , i noticed in the news another city marvelling at their new dock cranes , again , made in china. So yes , they are capable and are producing vital equipment , namely to us and no doubt others.
Thanks for the information. Does not surprise me. However, is the same thing going on in the consumer goods arena as opposed to industrial?
Here's the dock cranes arriving in Savanah , it was very much a carnival atmosphere and the town busy.The cranes arrived from China , one must assume this is happening up and down the country and not an isolated purchase.
On products from China, I have no problem with them selling here, only if we have the opportunity to sell there, and that all products are sold with information to make a wise choice of what we're purchasing (to include shipyard cranes). Counterfeits are just that, a product made to deceive.
On a side note, those cranes were quite a sight going through the Panama Canal.
I will just leave it at that, we all feel very strongly that government actions against fraud should be full bore and not the usual posturing and political games.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>I have had quite a few tell me this...PCGS has out sourced their plastic production to China. Please tell me this is not so. If it is it is no wonder the Chinese have a leg up on counterfeit slab production. This supposedly started when the slabs will not stack tight. I know everyone has noticed this....a major decline in slab quality. >>
rumors?
It'd be interesting to hear where their plastic parts are made.
(PS - The other half's family does a lot of plastic part fab and they are from Taiwan)
<< <i>I am not aware of any Chinese created, designed, produced and sold product that is a "must have" item in the worldwide marketplace [i.e. a Chinese watch that is equal to or better than Rolex]. Are there any such products? >>
porcelain (if made with care vs. mass made junk that's akin to clay pottery you see in chain stores), jade, etc.
fine porcelain and jade should be semi-translucent and not completely opaque.
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<< <i>I have not read the cited federal statutory law or the proposed bill to amend the current version of this law. I am curious about enforcement mechanisms. Does the statute (as it current is and with the proposed amendments) have any language talking about enforcement? Is enforcement of the statute solely in the realm of government prosecution of a criminal or civil action? Or does the statute provide for a private right of action that would allow a dealer or collector to file suit in his/her own name if they have been victimized by counterfeits? >>
This thread was about falsely marked gold or silver.
It allows for those adversely affected by the illegal actions of others to pursue them.
I propose that the bill relevant to this thread be amended to allow for similar civil actions.
========================================================================
I propose a few collector's join in the testimony or provide written testimony
On the really high end - SaintGuru, TradeDollarNut
On the not as high end - Justacommeman, Charmy, and even Airplanenut
<< <i>Barry Stuppler, Chairman of the Gold & Silver PAC, said if approved by Congress and signed into law by the President the new law would:
1) Include not only the distribution but also the sale in commerce of prohibited items;
2) Add a provision expanding the Hobby Protection Act to include "any person who provides substantial assistance or support to any manufacturer, importer, or seller" knowingly engaging in any act or practice that violates the Act;
3) Expand the venue for legal action to include not just having an agent present, to include "transacts business" -- or wherever venue is proper under section 1391 of Title 28, United States Code;" -- and
4) Add a section on Trademark violations specifically written to include the certification services and adds remedies to the Hobby Protection Act that currently exist under the Trademark Act of 1946 (U.S.C. Title 15, Sections 1116-1118) for violations of the Hobby Protection Act.
>>
Could you clarify #1, and would this bill make selling a counterfeit, which is openly and fairly represented as such, from being bought/sold as numismatic training/study pieces?
edit: in a million years would you have ever posted that thread AFTER this thread came out?
don't need a reply.