CBS Exposes Hotel Buyer Scams

shorecoll · May 30, 2012 12:53AM

From TV this morning.

They ran an undercover op in 6 cities. Not only are they paying pennies on the dollar, 4 of the 6 were lying about the amount/quality of the gold, etc. Underestimating amounts by 40-60% and then paying pennies on that.

114 teams of buyers (I think), operating under 8 brand names, all owned by one guy...who is currently under investigtion, not for ripping people off...but because he is behind an estimated $3MM in taxes.

Until late 2011 he did not have a personal bank account, everything he did or paid for was through the business.

Did anyone else see this?

epcjimi1 · May 30, 2012 1:08AM

CBS story here

Zoins · May 30, 2012 1:16AM

THR & Associates is a pretty big business. employing 1500 people and doing over $300m in business last year according to the article. Their employees also earn salaries 61% higher than others in Illinois.

Employees:
2009: 40
2010: 239
2011: 364
2012: 1500

Yearly Sales:

2009: $3 million
2010: $90 million
2011: $200 million
2012: $1 billion (projected)

* Additional data from thrassociates.com

keyman64 · May 30, 2012 1:18AM

About time someone did a story...geez.

DennisH · May 30, 2012 1:24AM

A bunch of people need to go to jail.

derryb · May 30, 2012 1:30AM

I sold them all of my fake double eagles.

cladking · May 30, 2012 1:33AM

I'm so jaded any more that I just have to suspect CBS didn't get their cut.

Everybody is out for themselves and the mainstream media protect gangs.

On the bright side this is good news if it keeps one person out of the hotel.

crazyhounddog · May 30, 2012 2:07AM

<< THR & Associates is a pretty big business. employing 1500 people and doing over $300m in business last year according to the article. Their employees also earn salaries 61% higher than others in Illinois.

Employees:
2009: 40
2010: 239
2011: 364
2012: 1500

Yearly Sales:

2009: $3 million
2010: $90 million
2011: $200 million
2012: $1 billion (projected)

* Additional data from thrassociates.com >>

I think it's about time someone goes to jail! I hate these SOB's.....Joe

rhedden · May 30, 2012 2:32AM

I saw this story too. Looks like the IRS is also after the scumbag CEO of the company, and he owes them $3 million.

The company had a brochure for its new buyers that instructed them to offer 1/30th the value of the items to prospective sellers, and then go up if they said "no." Pathetic.

WTCG · May 30, 2012 2:38AM

As crooked as these guys are the problem is the general public cannot tell the difference between these guys and legitimate coin dealers and gold buyers. Every time a story like this comes out the public will lump everybody remotely connected to the industry as bad people.

dragon · May 30, 2012 2:56AM

<< As crooked as these guys are the problem is the general public cannot tell the difference between these guys and legitimate coin dealers and gold buyers. Every time a story like this comes out the public will lump everybody remotely connected to the industry as bad people. >>

I think the real problem is that the entire precious metals/rare coin/gold buyers/etc. industries are basically completely unregulated and a virtual magnet for some very dishonest individuals.

The securities industry has extensive rules and regulations and can and will prosecute and/or fine violators especially regarding violations against seniors, yet these very same seniors can walk into a coin shop, a coin show, a hotel buyer, etc. and receive 20% of the true value of their valuables/assets and no one blinks.

A stockbroker can make an unsuitable investment recommendation to a senior on a $1000.00 investment and the senior ends up some losing money and reports this person, and FINRA will make this broker wish he/she was never born. Yet any B&M coin store or hotel buyer is free to basically cheat a senior at will out of their assets by paying pennies on the dollar, and they are free to laugh all the way to the bank with zero fear of any type of recourse.

oreville · May 30, 2012 3:22AM

We once lined up all our friends to one of these hotel room guys and we toyed with them playing dumb until the hotel guy got wind of it and closed up early and left town.

Kill them with a large quantities of relatively inexpensive coins to suck up all their time and then introduce them into our world of "no."

It works!

derryb · May 30, 2012 3:26AM

<< I think the real problem is that the entire precious metals/rare coin/gold buyers/etc. industries are basically completely unregulated and a virtual magnet for some very dishonest individuals.

The securities industry has extensive rules and regulations and can and will prosecute and/or fine violators especially regarding violations against seniors, yet these very same seniors can walk into a coin shop, a coin show, a hotel buyer, etc. and receive 20% of the true value of their valuables/assets and no one blinks. >>

Gotta disagree. Current laws, when applied, protect sellers from illegal activity. Keep in mind that while immoral, it is not illegal to underpay when buying. Take a look at trade in values when it comes to car dealerships.

Concerning securities regulations all I can say is: "MF Global and Jon Corzine." Federal regulators, including banking, are not working for the consumer.

dragon · May 30, 2012 3:40AM

<<< Keep in mind that while immoral, it is not illegal to underpay when buying. >>>

That's part of my whole point. Current laws and regulations completely ignore business's who routinely pay pennies on the dollar to the unsuspecting public which IMO should be a crime, just as a dishonest person or firm in the securities industry is fined and prosecuted.

derryb · May 30, 2012 3:45AM

the "we need the government to protect us" outlook is already out of hand. Price fixing, whether on behalf of a buyer or a seller, is not the answer. We are up to our neck in taxpayer funded government protection.

The market (competition) should determine price, even if it is driven downward by uneducated sellers or upward by uneducated buyers. Differences in "education" are actually what sets market prices.

astrorat · May 30, 2012 3:48AM

<< Current laws and regulations completely ignore business's who routinely pay pennies on the dollar to the unsuspecting public which IMO should be a crime ... >>

Okay ... how many "pennies on the dollar" before it's no longer a crime? At what point do we use judicial regulation (i.e. laws) to enforce "buy and sell" prices in the secondary market? If it's a "crime" to buy silver 1 oz rounds at 1/10 of spot, when does it become legal ... 1/5, 1/2, 7/10 ... ?

Not every practice that is unethical should be illegal.

dragon · May 30, 2012 4:29AM

In my above example, a securities firm can lose a couple thousand dollars of a seniors (or anyone's) money via improper or unsuitable investment advice and the govt. regulators will come down on them like hellfire with fines, suspensions, etc.

Yet a business such as hotel buyers or a B&M coin shop can financially harm a senior (or anyone) via making offers for pennies on the dollar for their assets with zero recourse from any govt. regulatory agency. In both instances, the unsophisticated individual has been financially harmed through ignorance.

Bankerbob56 · May 30, 2012 4:32AM

<< 

<< As crooked as these guys are the problem is the general public cannot tell the difference between these guys and legitimate coin dealers and gold buyers. Every time a story like this comes out the public will lump everybody remotely connected to the industry as bad people. >>

I think the real problem is that the entire precious metals/rare coin/gold buyers/etc. industries are basically completely unregulated and a virtual magnet for some very dishonest individuals.

The securities industry has extensive rules and regulations and can and will prosecute and/or fine violators especially regarding violations against seniors, yet these very same seniors can walk into a coin shop, a coin show, a hotel buyer, etc. and receive 20% of the true value of their valuables/assets and no one blinks.

A stockbroker can make an unsuitable investment recommendation to a senior on a $1000.00 investment and the senior ends up some losing money and reports this person, and FINRA will make this broker wish he/she was never born. Yet any B&M coin store or hotel buyer is free to basically cheat a senior at will out of their assets by paying pennies on the dollar, and they are free to laugh all the way to the bank with zero fear of any type of recourse. >>

OMG!!! Just what we need is more Regulators?????

Give me a break this country is so over-regulated now.............

We definitely DO NOT NEED more govt. intervention!!!!

morbidsteve · May 30, 2012 4:43AM

Interesting. Glad someone finally exposed this publicly... or at least somewhat

astrorat · May 30, 2012 4:47AM

<< In my above example, a securities firm can lose a couple thousand dollars of a seniors (or anyone's) money via improper or unsuitable investment advice and the govt. regulators will come down on them like hellfire with fines, suspensions, etc. >>

Fair enough ... I was not aware there were legal penalties in placed for improper investment advice. It must be based on some standard of practice, no?

MVC · May 30, 2012 4:55AM

Offering pennies on the dollar is not illegal. Lying to obtain the goods is and those guilty of that should go to jail. I am not for more government regulation, but I am not sure exactly where the line is between someone being accountable for oneself vs. big brother protecting them. Having said all that, I do not like these guys either.

Tassa · May 30, 2012 5:18AM

<< Interesting. Glad someone finally exposed this publicly... or at least somewhat >>

I agree. Wish the story was on the evening news.

Elcontador · May 30, 2012 5:24AM

This sort of thing was around, and advertised in major newspapers since I started collecting coins in the 1960s, and probably was around before that. It has taken the mainstream press this long to realize that these people are scammers..........Excuse me, why am I even bothering to ask.

SeattleSlammer · May 30, 2012 5:54AM

SeattleSlammer · May 30, 2012 5:58AM

<< 

OMG!!! Just what we need is more Regulators?????

Give me a break this country is so over-regulated now.............

We definitely DO NOT NEED more govt. intervention!!!!

>>

CHASE agrees with you.

LanceNewmanOCC · May 30, 2012 6:02AM

<< I agree. Wish the story was on the evening news. >>

there are probably dozens of video websites that would have hundreds of hours of footage on all that is talked about in this thread

not as convenient as turning on the TV but you will also find purer information most likely than what most tv news channels puke out for their daily news
.

derryb · May 30, 2012 6:13AM

<< Yet a business such as hotel buyers or a B&M coin shop can financially harm a senior (or anyone) via making offers for pennies on the dollar for their assets with zero recourse from any govt. regulatory agency. In both instances, the unsophisticated individual has been financially harmed through ignorance. >>

Then maybe we should regulate ignorance. Oops, we already do that, public education.

When buyers are able to FORCE unsophisticated individuals to accept pennies on the dollar then I'll listen to your "more regulation" arguement.

BryceM · May 30, 2012 7:08AM

"There ought to be a law...." has gotten us squarely into the land we now live in - the land of "unintended consequences".

Ever since time began there have been people taking advantage of others. Despite what we'd like to think, the actual line between legitimate coin dealer and scam artist isn't all that well defined. It isn't all that well defined in any profession. Financial advisors, physicians, attorneys, dentists, morticians, real estate agents...... all of these professions have people who are only looking out for themselves. At some point, people have the responsibility to look out for their own interests. If both parties walk away from a transaction satisfied, it's hard to see where the government should get involved.

Oh, and BTW, at what point did it become unacceptable for people in this country to loose money in the stock market? Nobody complains when it goes up, but somebody somewhere makes a bad decision and suddently it should be illegal?????

Coinosaurus · May 30, 2012 7:17AM

<< Oh, and BTW, at what point did it become unacceptable for people in this country to loose money in the stock market? Nobody complains when it goes up, but somebody somewhere makes a bad decision and suddently it should be illegal????? >>

Yup. You lose $$$ on FB, it is clearly someone's fault, so sue the b******. Somewhere personal responsibility has to come in. If a greedy buyer outwits a clueless seller, BOTH are responsible, although you might argue that the buyer is more guilty than the seller. Still takes two to make a bad deal, in the end both bear the blame.

mkman123 · May 30, 2012 9:38AM

Send them to north Korea!

pakasmom · May 30, 2012 10:14AM

I highly recommend the documentary, "Inside Job," for those against regulating financial institutions...

morgansforever · May 30, 2012 10:15AM

Is it a scam? Not condoning what they do but they're are not forcing one to sell.
The buy prices were laughable from one hotel buyer, basically half of spot + or -.
There is plenty of info out there, no excuse really, Google gold, Kitco is the second result.
I asked if they were selling at bargain prices, "we don't sell PM's".

Tassa · May 30, 2012 10:24AM

<< Is it a scam? Not condoning what they do but they're are not forcing one to sell.
The buy prices were laughable from one hotel buyer, basically half of spot + or -.
There is plenty of info out there, no excuse really, Google gold, Kitco is the second result.
I asked if they were selling at bargain prices, "we don't sell PM's". >>

Did you watch the video? If you didn't what you missed was that someone had a table full of gold and the buyer told them that half of it was copper. I would say that qualifies as scamming.
As for the info being out there, I agree, however these companies run huge ads in the newspapers claiming they pay "top dollar" and that they pay more than their competitors and there are a lot of elderly people who don't follow the markets, don't own a computer and still read the newspapers everyday. Not only that, but some local newspapers and television stations sometimes cover their "buying events" as real events and give them more publicity.

illini420 · May 30, 2012 10:31AM

<< We once lined up all our friends to one of these hotel room guys and we toyed with them playing dumb until the hotel guy got wind of it and closed up early and left town.

Kill them with a large quantities of relatively inexpensive coins to suck up all their time and then introduce them into our world of "no."

It works! >>

Sounds like a plan to me... think about it... everytime one of these buyers comes to town the local coin club could gear up with their junk and really cause a headache for these guys. Of course, for most of the clubs I'm a part of it's hard enough to get the members to even show up to the coin club meetings in the first place.

morgansforever · May 30, 2012 10:36AM

<<Did you watch the video? If you didn't what you missed was that someone had a table full of gold and the buyer told them that half of it was copper. I would say that qualifies as scamming.>>

No question, the half copper bit was an outright scam.

Kaelasdad · May 30, 2012 10:45AM

"The securities industry has extensive rules and regulations and can and will prosecute and/or fine violators especially regarding violations against seniors, yet these very same seniors can walk into a coin shop, a coin show, a hotel buyer, etc. and receive 20% of the true value of their valuables/assets and no one blinks."

I agree that the hotel buyers are crooks, however, I see a huge difference between 1/30 of the value and 80%. Frankly, to pay salaries , overhead, and the government, if you are offering more than 80% so you can hold it for 10 days in a down market, say good bye to your salary, and then to your overhead, cause your shop is closed.

I offer a competitive value, and i am licensed by the state, and anyone is free to walk right out of the door and try their luck elsewhere--and most of my offers are right in the 80-85% range--if im offering 100% well, then im pretty stupid aint i?

TwoSides2aCoin · May 30, 2012 11:14AM

Moral of the story : There's too much television and not enough coin shows.

derryb · May 30, 2012 11:20AM

<< I highly recommend the documentary, "Inside Job," for those against regulating financial institutions... >>

it's not a regulation problem, it is an enforcement problem. The regulations are there, it just needs regulators on the job that are not afraid of the consequences of doing their job.

Tassa · May 30, 2012 11:30AM

If people had more common sense and less greed the world would be a better place.

DougDismal · May 30, 2012 2:42PM

Those hotel buyers work under the philosophy of, "Nothing bought on the marketplace is ever too cheap". These men disgust me and should all be put out of business. They pray on unknowing old ladies and try to extract as much goods as they can from them for pennies on the dollar all while doing it with a smile and a handshake. Just despicable.

-Doug

19Lyds · May 30, 2012 3:11PM

Wow.

4 out of 6 made fraudulent offers and the owner has the gall to say that its a small percentage of the 140 managers that he employs.

From a percentage standpoint, if all 140 were checked, 93 would have made fraudulent offers.

I imagine that irate customers marched off to the jewelry store they purchased their jewelry at wanting an explanation which is what prompted the CBS Story.

Their really should be some controls but unfortunately that would require more government regulation supported by more tax dollars in order to protect people from themselves.

Baaaa-aaa.

CollectingMachine · May 30, 2012 4:47PM

Put me in the LESS Regulation Category.

For those of you spouting the greatness of the SEC and such, look at the economic crash we all went through and are still in the midst of. If regulation was the fix, that would have never happened.

There is plenty of regulation for these guy's already. I know in my town it takes a special permit to do business, and my local coin shop owner checked up to make sure they had the permit. He also said they had the "special" scales that had to be checked and verified that they kept their goods in town for something like 30 day's to pass all the "regulation" that is already there. But none of that stopped them as they had it all and more won't stop them either if there is money to be made.

I don't think I'd ever go to one of these places to sell my stuff other then to see how it works but I'm not the kind of person that sells his used games to Game Stop at 10% of what I paid either. But your not complaining about that? I mean isn't that predatory to Kids. Making all that money off of them. Seems they need some regulation! NOT

What we need is a good education system to have informed citizens. I mean is it wrong to have a outfit for sale at some boutique and also the same one for sale and 75% off at a discount store? Is anyone getting scammed?

jdimmick · May 30, 2012 5:14PM

They need to run this story on the National eve news several times to get out to more people, every time they come here, people get burned. In fact, they are coming back next week again. This time I knew they were coming and am at least running a counter add indicating how motel buyers flat out rip off consumers. ( i was really surprised they let me print that this time, but they did )

Bankerbob56 · May 30, 2012 9:13PM

<< 

<< 

OMG!!! Just what we need is more Regulators?????

Give me a break this country is so over-regulated now.............

We definitely DO NOT NEED more govt. intervention!!!!

>>

CHASE agrees with you. >>

Now that's laughable.

FWIW Chase has a permanent set of regulators assigned to them. All banks of that size do. Also, Chase will earn back the "lost" $2.5 billion in just a matter of a few months. You must be a fan of Barney Frank and Chris Dodd, interesting that the authors of the Frank Dodd bill have decided not to run for re-election!!!

mr1931S · May 30, 2012 9:46PM

<< Oh, and BTW, at what point did it become unacceptable for people in this country to loose money in the stock market? Nobody complains when it goes up, but somebody somewhere makes a bad decision and suddently it should be illegal????? >>

<<Yup. You lose $$$ on FB, it is clearly someone's fault, so sue the b******. Somewhere personal responsibility has to come in. If a greedy buyer outwits a clueless seller, BOTH are responsible, although you might argue that the buyer is more guilty than the seller. Still takes two to make a bad deal, in the end both bear the blame.>>

The stock market is a crapshoot.By this kind of logic,the casino should be sued when the gambler loses his money there.
Does the casino twist your arm forcing you to go into their casino? Lose $$$ on FB.Was anyone's arm twisted to buy this stock?
Whatever happened to assessing the risks and following up by taking responsibility for your role in whatever happens?

SeattleSlammer · May 31, 2012 1:37AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

OMG!!! Just what we need is more Regulators?????

Give me a break this country is so over-regulated now.............

We definitely DO NOT NEED more govt. intervention!!!!

>>

CHASE agrees with you. >>

Now that's laughable.

FWIW Chase has a permanent set of regulators assigned to them. All banks of that size do. Also, Chase will earn back the "lost" $2.5 billion in just a matter of a few months. You must be a fan of Barney Frank and Chris Dodd, interesting that the authors of the Frank Dodd bill have decided not to run for re-election!!!

>>

Not more for more's sake but instead more effective. And I certainly wasn't worried about the bank making its money. That really has never been the problem.

cladking · May 31, 2012 4:41AM

There are plenty of laws already on the books to stop this nonsense. Hell, there are even commandments about it.

Laws aren't enfoirced any longer. I don't know why we even have regulatory agencies any longer. We spend billions
upon billions every year and they can't even catch the MF Global miscreants. Just disband them all and everyone will
have a chance. It's rigged now so you can't win.

Bankerbob56 · May 31, 2012 4:50AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

OMG!!! Just what we need is more Regulators?????

Give me a break this country is so over-regulated now.............

We definitely DO NOT NEED more govt. intervention!!!!

>>

CHASE agrees with you. >>

Now that's laughable.

FWIW Chase has a permanent set of regulators assigned to them. All banks of that size do. Also, Chase will earn back the "lost" $2.5 billion in just a matter of a few months. You must be a fan of Barney Frank and Chris Dodd, interesting that the authors of the Frank Dodd bill have decided not to run for re-election!!!

>>

Not more for more's sake but instead more effective. And I certainly wasn't worried about the bank making its money. That really has never been the problem. >>

More effective regulators? .....they'll all be in NYC catching vendors selling oversized sugary drinks to fat kids for lots of "coin!" Yeah, we need more govt regulations.......

roadrunner · May 31, 2012 6:14AM

FWIW Chase has a permanent set of regulators assigned to them. All banks of that size do. Also, Chase will earn back the "lost" $2.5 billion in just a matter of a few months.
You must be a fan of Barney Frank and Chris Dodd, interesting that the authors of the Frank Dodd bill have decided not to run for re-election!!!

Whatever regulators Chase has assigned to them is clearly not enough to monitor $70 TRILLION worth of bets..... I mean "contracts." And whatever regulators are assigned
ultimately work for JPM since they are joined at the hip with the USTreasury and FED. Regulator William Black sent thousands of bankers/financiers to jail in the 1980's during
the S&L scams for far less crimes. "Only" billions were lost back then. Today we've seen Trillions of dollars evaporate and not one banker has been tried, let alone convicted of
anything. They has a lot less regulators back in the 1980's too. But they knew fraud when they saw it and did their jobs. The fraud runs so deep today as to be ubiquitous in the
TBTF banking business and on capital hill. Chase may indeed "earn" back that those lost billions because anything can be temporarily shuffled on the balance sheet. They've been
shuffling hundreds of billions in derivative's losses for years now. At some point the piper will be calling. Whatever was put into Dodd-Frank has been easily gutted by banking
lobbyists and congressional leaders as well. The original bill had some teeth. The watered down version lets the bankers keep on doing what they were doing. Whatever provisions
are still left that might interfere with TBTF business as usual will be delayed in the courts for years. Regulators will give up long before that.

yellowkid · May 31, 2012 6:52AM

No doubt they are egregious wrong doers, but what do you want the law to do? A bunch of forms? Reports to them? If people are going to be stupid, well then....

CBS Exposes Hotel Buyer Scams

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