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My first experience with NGC Appearance Review - 1857 1c NGC MS64 (NEW POST-CONSERVATION PICS!!)
illini420
Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
Hey all, figured this may be educational for some, including myself. I bought this 1857 NGC MS64 Flying Eagle Cent awhile back and it was originally the topic of a eBay Gamble Guess the Grade thread I started back in July Guess the Grade Thread, not many then said it would be an MS64 given all of the spots. Have since been trying to sell it. Showed it off at some shows and about 90% of the dealers were just not interested at any price given the appearance, many suggested getting NGC to take it under their grade guarantee ("Appearance Review"). Some other dealers were willing to buy it, but the best offer I got was I think $500. For reference, the PCGS guide lists an MS64 at $1650 and Numismedia retail is $1540 I think. Last time I checked the greysheet bid/ask it was $1050-$1150.
Instead of trying to re-sell it on eBay using a bad pic, I'm sending it in to NGC this week. Figure it's worth the $20-$30 shipping to give it a shot. Any guesses as to what their verdict will be??
Will they say it's an MS63 and pay some cash for the difference? Will they say it's a BB and pay some cash for the difference? Will they mail me a replacement MS64?? Will they say the coin is currently accurately graded as an MS64?? Some other response???
Never done this before and based on my search of the forums it seems like not many here have. Will update in a few weeks when I hear from NGC. Please feel free to share your thoughts, comments, guesses...
Under different lighting:
Edited to "stack" images
***12/6/08 - Edited to add post-conservation pics at about post #60***
Instead of trying to re-sell it on eBay using a bad pic, I'm sending it in to NGC this week. Figure it's worth the $20-$30 shipping to give it a shot. Any guesses as to what their verdict will be??
Will they say it's an MS63 and pay some cash for the difference? Will they say it's a BB and pay some cash for the difference? Will they mail me a replacement MS64?? Will they say the coin is currently accurately graded as an MS64?? Some other response???
Never done this before and based on my search of the forums it seems like not many here have. Will update in a few weeks when I hear from NGC. Please feel free to share your thoughts, comments, guesses...
Under different lighting:
Edited to "stack" images
***12/6/08 - Edited to add post-conservation pics at about post #60***
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
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Comments
-Paul
I sent in a coin with a staple scratch. They said it was graded just fine as is. My coin looks like it would 65 without the scratch on each side but is in a 63 holder. So I guess that is net grading.
I too would be interested in how you make out. Just remember what NGC guarantee is:
"WARNING: THIS GUARANTEE IS LIMITED.
The NGC Guarantee does not apply to copper, bronze or copper nickel coins graded by NGC prior to April 1, 2000.
To the extent that the NGC Guarantee applies to copper, bronze, or copper nickel coins, the NGC Guarantee expires with respect to such coin(s) on the ten year anniversary of the date of encapsulation by NGC.
All U.S and World coins - including but not limited to Pattern coins, Varieties, Tokens and Medals, Mint Errors, American Colonials, Confederation coinage and Private and Territorial Gold - are guaranteed for grade and authenticity only.
The NGC Guarantee does not cover coins which have been graded by NGC but then are subjected to abuse, alteration, or improper storage conditions such as (but not limited to) extreme temperature, moisture, damaging environmental conditions, excessive light, excessive motion or vibration, or any other extreme conditions.
The NGC Guarantee does not apply to coins that have been removed at any time from their original NGC holder, or to coins that bear any evidence of tampering which determination shall be at the sole discretion of NGC.
The NGC Guarantee does not apply to clerical errors on the label.
THE NGC GUARANTEE TAKES THE PLACE OF AND SUPERSEDES ALL OTHER WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED AND WHETHER OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS OR OTHERWISE. THE REMEDIES PROVIDED IN THIS AGREEMENT ARE EXCLUSIVE. EXCEPT AS EXPRESSLY STATED IN THIS AGREEMENT, ALL OTHER REMEDIES AGAINST NGC, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, CONSEQUENTIAL, PUNITIVE, AND INCIDENTAL DAMAGES, ARE WAIVED."
Please tell me NGC did not slab that coin with those actively growing carbon spots to begin with?
-Paul
<< <i>I forgot, they may not cover it. What kind of slab was it in?
-Paul >>
Picture in its current holder:
Not exactly sure of the date it was graded, but I'm guessing it was post-2000 and should be covered under the guarantee as it is in one of the more recent slabs.
I'm not sure if the spots where there when originally holdered, as I'm not the one who sent it in for grading. I hope not!!!
Edited to add, sorry about the horrible slab pic, just the only one I had around and didn't feel like trying again... would be a perfect pic for an eBay auction though
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
-Paul
<< <i>Will they say it's an MS63 and pay some cash for the difference? Will they say it's a BB and pay some cash for the difference? Will they mail me a replacement MS64?? Will they say the coin is currently accurately graded as an MS64?? Some other response???
Never done this before and based on my search of the forums it seems like not many here have. Will update in a few weeks when I hear from NGC. Please feel free to share your thoughts, comments, guesses... >>
Hopefully any response other than "It is accurately grade as an MS64".
merse
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>Are the Carbon spots the main problem ? >>
Definitely the main problem. Also has a slightly weak strike on the obverse, but I've seen lots of 64s with similar strike.
To be fair, I've also seen 64s with a copper spot or two, if they are hidden or very small, I would agree with a 64 in many cases. However, this coin seems to be in a different ballpark, at least 20 spots on the obverse, some of them look like little snow-capped mountains!!
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
www.brunkauctions.com
Those spots don't look pretty. I would highly recommend sending it to NCS for spot removal first.
Tell them, those spots are active and growing. Try hit'n up one of those major coin shows in person, if NGC/NCS is there. They should be able to fix this problem.
I have a 1897 proof V nickel in a NGC PF63CAM holder with some early stages of carbon spots beginning to form. I also have future plans of sending that coin to NCS.
Good luck, and let me know the outcome...
<< <i>Mike...
Those spots don't look pretty. I would highly recommend sending it to NCS for spot removal first.
Tell them, those spots are active and growing. Try hit'n up one of those major coin shows in person, if NGC/NCS is there. They should be able to fix this problem.
>>
I thought about NCS, Rob... I just have read so many times here that nothing can fix copper spots on cents. We'll see what NGC says and whether they recommend/insist it goes to NCS first.
I was going to just take it to the NGC table at the next Long Beach show, as it would have save me so postage. But I'm just can't wait until February!!
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
did you buy the coin, submit it raw and have it graded?
Lastly, if the coin was NOT like this when you first obtained it -
where & under what conditions has this certified coin stored?
Looking for a time frame - condition upon initial purchase AND
quite possibly, a root cause for this event. When did you first notice
these dreadful black spots? Where had the coin/ slab been stored
just prior to you noticing these?
They look very un-natural - almost as though burnt.
Unlikely but that's what it LOOKS like!
I may be mistaken ...
<< <i>Did you buy the coin already graded and in this NGC slab OR
did you buy the coin, submit it raw and have it graded?
Lastly, if the coin was NOT like this when you first obtained it -
where & under what conditions has this certified coin stored?
Looking for a time frame - condition upon initial purchase AND
quite possibly, a root cause for this event. When did you first notice
these dreadful black spots? Where had the coin/ slab been stored
just prior to you noticing these?
They look very un-natural - almost as though burnt.
Unlikely but that's what it LOOKS like! >>
Bought the coin off eBay for what was an awesome price for the grade (I thought). Seller didn't offer a return policy (lesson learned). My original thread for that is in my first post.
The coin was already graded before I owned it. When I first got it (about 6 months ago), there were plenty of spots on it. However, since then, it seems like the spots are worse now than 6 months ago (could be my imagination though). Didn't take good pictures then so I don't know for sure so I'm chalking it up to my imagination that they are getting worse now and that it was probably like this when I first got it from the seller. Been stored in an intercept shield box since I got it with a bunch of other slabbed coins. I live in a very dry climate as well so that shouldn't be a factor here.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
I'm anxious to hear how it all goes.
Ryan
<< <i>Mike...
Those spots don't look pretty. I would highly recommend sending it to NCS for spot removal first.
Tell them, those spots are active and growing. Try hit'n up one of those major coin shows in person, if NGC/NCS is there. They should be able to fix this problem.
I have a 1897 proof V nickel in a NGC PF63CAM holder with some early stages of carbon spots beginning to form. I also have future plans of sending that coin to NCS.
Good luck, and let me know the outcome... >>
Just got an email (and a voicemail message) from NGC today. Pretty fast service!! They are recommending that I let them send the coin over to NCS and then back to NGC for regrading (apparently w/o any fees). Then after they get the new grade (if gradable) then we'll go from there. I think they are holding the coin first for my approval before sending it over to NCS. Any thoughts/recommendations??? I'm thinking I should let NCS give it a shot, probably can't do any more harm at this point...
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
I'd want to get a list of possible outcomes *before* letting someone monkey with a coin you own.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
bob
<< <i>What happens if NCS futzes up the coin? It's possible. Are you stuck with it or will they make you whole? Who makes the determination as to whether the coin is better or worse after NCS, you or them?
I'd want to get a list of possible outcomes *before* letting someone monkey with a coin you own. >>
I've been in the same circumstance as the OP.
Coin developed spots after it was holdered. Grade was now excessive with said spots. They wanted to let NCS try to remove them, which seemed reasonable. NCS did a bang up job, but weren't able to remove them completely. NGC graded it two points lower than it was, which was an appropriate grade.
They refunded everything that i had in the coin, plus they even sent the downgraded same coin back to me. I was happy to say the least.
<< <i>What happens if NCS futzes up the coin? It's possible. Are you stuck with it or will they make you whole? Who makes the determination as to whether the coin is better or worse after NCS, you or them?
I'd want to get a list of possible outcomes *before* letting someone monkey with a coin you own. >>
Thanks for the comments. Will definitely discuss the "list of options" before letting them "futz" with it
<< <i>I've been in the same circumstance as the OP.
Coin developed spots after it was holdered. Grade was now excessive with said spots. They wanted to let NCS try to remove them, which seemed reasonable. NCS did a bang up job, but weren't able to remove them completely. NGC graded it two points lower than it was, which was an appropriate grade.
They refunded everything that i had in the coin, plus they even sent the downgraded same coin back to me. I was happy to say the least. >>
Since it looks like I'll likely be letting NCS work their magic, will keep my fingers crossed for a similar happy experience. Thanks.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>Do you know how they determine the value? Do they use the Grey Sheet? >>
I have no clue, I'll post what I find out though. I was sort of hoping they'd use the Numismedia retail prices they use in their registry, or even use the PCGS guide prices
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>I would rather have an original coin with spots than a greasy looking conserved/dipped/cleaned one........... >>
Well, if the OP doesn't like the coin now as is, what does he have to lose be letting NCS try to work
their magic (assuming that he is indeed covered in any eventuality)? While much of NCS's work looks
like they strip the coins to oblivion, I have been happy with the 2 coins I sent in to them for conservation.
They didn't work miracles, but in each case the coin was better off after than before, and MUCH more
saleable.
Coin #1: Russia 1 rouble 1850 proof. Had serious issues on the reverse... green stuff and white crap.
Before:
After, slabbed NGC PF62:
Coin #2: German 2 Mark commem. In an old NGC PF62 (no cameo) older. Ugly haze and toning.
Before:
After (Now in an NGC PF63 CAMEO holder). I normally love toned coins, but black & white proofs are an exception:
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i><SNIP>
Instead of trying to re-sell it on eBay using a bad pic, <SNIP> >>
BS&T
Ebay: + <waitin'> NEG: Chameleoncoins
NonBST/Ebay:
WTB: Toners, BU Darkside, Sovs & 20 Mark, LMU/SMU Gold.
After a few rounds of phone tag, I finally spoke with NGC today. Unfortunately I didn't have much time to chat with them as I was between meetings, but they said they already had NCS take a look at the 1857 Flying Eagle cent and that they were confident they could improve the look of the coin and make it more marketable. When I asked them what exactly is done in the conservation process, the person I was speaking with didn't sound too sure, but I was told that the coin was treated with several types of solvents that would improve the entire coin and that the treatment wasn't focused on the spots alone. Then, the coin would go back to NGC, and if it grades lower or not at all, I was told that I would be compensated for the difference in value.
I didn't really get into how that difference is determined as I only had a few minutes to chat and wasn't about to attempt any more "phone tag" with them as I'm on the west coast and they are in the east to NGC's hours and my free-time don't match up too well. In short, I told them to do what they feel is best, but if they screw up my coin any further than it is, I'd expect either a replacement or reimbursement. They told me we'll see what NCS can do and that I should know next week or maybe Monday after Thanksgiving at the latest.
Maybe I should have tried to call back when I had more time to get more specifics as it would have been more useful information for the forum, but I'm sort of interested in seeing what NCS can do to pretty up this coin. Sorry I didn't get more details... will update when I hear more.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
“Improperly stored”
If there is any indication that the label has somehow “changed” inside the plastic, (especially from water damage due to flooding, hurricane, extremely high humidity, etc.) NCG will not offer any type of guarantee that they presently offer.
Hope for your sake it does not go that way, the results will be interesting, make sure you re-visit once you find out.
Hint: Next time stack your images so the readers do not have to scroll horizontal to read.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>I can see the writing on the wall:
“Improperly stored”
If there is any indication that the label has somehow “changed” inside the plastic, (especially from water damage due to flooding, hurricane, extremely high humidity, etc.) NCG will not offer any type of guarantee that they presently offer.
Hope for your sake it does not go that way, the results will be interesting, make sure you re-visit once you find out.
Hint: Next time stack your images so the readers do not have to scroll horizontal to read. >>
Fixed the images in my OP, sorry, I have a widescreen monitor and it didn't bother me
If they come back with anything like "improperly stored" I'll have a problem with that as nothing of the sort was mentioned regarding that thus far, and apparently NCS has already done a preliminary review. But, we'll see...
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Got the call from NGC today... NCS "conserved" the coin, was sent to NGC for regrade and they gave it MS64!
The NGC rep said it looks much better and that the graders felt that MS64 was the appropriate grade and that they are hoping I like the look of the coin (will post pics this weekend) as I'm supposed to get it by Friday. I asked what happens if I don't like the results of the conservation??? I was told that NGC would then work with me and find a buyer who was willing to purchase the coin for MS64 money. Didn't get into it much more than that as I'm willing to see what the conservation did first before I take any next steps.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Thanks for all the work in giving us this very interesting thread!
Drunner
Please keep us posted....Mike
Also failed to mention that NGC is shipping it out to me tomorrow via overnight delivery w/ no charge and there was no charge for the NCS conservation. So far I've been very very pleased with their service and the rep I've been dealing with has maintained excellent communication via both e-mail and telephone.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Hope I'm wrong...
Steve
Edited to add... I missed your final info... I didn't get that love, so good for you.
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.