New Purchase - Apparently Not a 1915 Matte Proof Lincoln (new larger pics added)

illini420 · July 23, 2008 4:37PM

Hi there, just purchased this one at a local coin auction. Was advertised as a 1915 Matte Proof Lincoln in Proof 63 BN. Just liked the way it looked in hand with much more red than advertised and the bidding wasn't very strong on it so I pulled the trigger. There's some damage on the reverse (looks like scraping across the back, but the pictures make it look much more dramatic). From several angles, the damage on the reverse can't be seen.

Anyways, here's my attempts at photos, still learning to use my new camera and I'm sure I can eventually get better ones than these. Just hoping it's a real Matte Proof since I bought it raw and I didn't really know what diagnostics to look for (seller guarantees authenticity as well). Also was wondering if it was worth getting slabbed (probably NCS is my only option). Or maybe I'll just put it in my 7070 set

Edited to change title...

Elcontador · July 23, 2008 5:04PM

It's real important to closely observe the color of the coin to check for cleaning. It's usually easy to tell if copper has been doctored. A piinkish hue is a telltale sign on a business strike Lincoln or IHC that it has been cleaned. The contact marks on the reverse are not a deal-breaker re whether or not the coin will slab. Its color IS a deal-breaker.

Your photo is too overexposed for me to have an opinion re the coin's color. Parts of the obverse and reverse are overly bright, and part of the obverse looks like it has a pinkish hue.

Dawg144 · July 23, 2008 5:10PM

Diagnostics

I can't see any of the die polish lines from your image, but maybe you can see some on the coin in hand.
Good luck!

illini420 · July 23, 2008 6:16PM

Thanks for the link to the diagnostics. I'll try to look but it looks like it'll be hard to see with even a 10x loupe (all I have right now). Will give it a shot though.

Tried a few more pics, these are closer to the real color of the coin. Need to keep trying and figure out how to get a closer image of the coin... my new camera seems like it should do the trick, perhaps I need a book on coin photography

droopyd · July 23, 2008 7:28PM

I'm no expert on MPLs and certainly can't tell from the photo, but the 1915-P Lincolns tend to be characterized by sharp strikes.

curly · July 23, 2008 8:11PM

Brother, from the pics, I don't see a proof. The edges look rounded off to me. Take it to a show and get some opinions.

mozeppa · July 23, 2008 8:15PM

don't want to burst your bubble ....but...thats NOT a matte proof!

with out a doubt.

note the rounded over edges...the edges on a matte proof are more like the edges of a tuna can...ALL the way around.

business strikes have rounded edges like a bicycle tire.

lasvegasteddy · July 23, 2008 8:44PM

i just don't see a matte proof there

i don't see anything about the reverse to change my mind even a little

the obverse...it just doesn't have those rims that want to cut you looking at them and abes not a crispy-sharp strike

see "dawg144's" posted link and see how a matty leaves no question

mozeppa · July 23, 2008 8:52PM

some help here.

lcoopie · July 23, 2008 9:05PM

<< some help here.

>>

would this hold for proofs, other than matte proof lincolns?

thanks for the diagram, very helpful

ambro51 · July 23, 2008 10:19PM

For Comparison, this is a genuine 1915 MPL. When you really examine the surfaces with a loupe, it become evident that the granularity is made up of sharply defined evenly sized 'granuals'. You only get this when the planchet has been struck with the extreme high pressure hydraulic press in the Philadelphia Mint Medal Room, using dies that have been sandblasted and NOT used for hundreds of thousands of impressions as to wear down the surfaces. Also, if you can view the edge, and the coin is still MS, the edge will be mirror smooth (though maybe brown) and not show vertical lines since the collar is polished.

Its a nice business strike, but it may be cleaned.

291fifth · July 23, 2008 10:26PM

My best guess based on the less than great photos:

AU58 details, cleaned, business strike.

It was raw, an immediate red flag for a coin like this.

dorkkarl · July 23, 2008 10:40PM

not a proof to me, but at best, it's a damaged coin anyway

K S

RedneckHB · July 23, 2008 11:05PM

Not a MPL.

ambro51 · July 23, 2008 11:15PM

As long as that "guarantee of authenticity' includes a return privilage.....Id be returning it

Talk to Brian Wagner when you're ready to get a nice coin........

RWB · July 24, 2008 12:03AM

Mozeppa’s diagram would, in general, apply to 19th and early 20th century proofs. The differences are mechanical – in how the piece was struck and on what type of equipment. All proofs from 1858 were made on a medal press, which is what imparts the distinctive physical characteristics in the illustration. (This is also one of the key arguments against so-called "branch mint proofs" - only the Philadelphia Mint had medal presses. However, there is nothing to prevent mint marked proofs from being made in Philadelphia, possibly for a special event at one of the branch mints.)

illini420 · July 24, 2008 1:01AM

Thank you very much for the responses so far. As you might be able to tell, I'm definitely still learning

I know better than to buy something like this raw, but even with the damage on the reverse, I really liked the look of the coin in hand and the final bid price was low enough ($220 winning bid + 10% juice) to where I felt comfortable with the risk. Of course, I love it much more as a matte proof than as a business strike

The auctioneer guarantees authenticity for life and if I decide to return it I don't expect any trouble with this relatively small amount given that I spent much more on other coins.

When looking at this one closely and comparing to the diagram posted by mozeppa, the just about all of the obverse except for the lower left corner looks like the matte proof with squared corners and a wide sharp edge. Looking at the reverse, it looks mostly like the business strike example with much shallower depression and narrower edge. Definitely a case of not really knowing what I'm doing and I know my photos definitely don't help much.

Like I said, thank you all very much so far for your comments. I'll definitely take it to my local dealer next time I visit for his opinion and if he isn't 100% sure I'll probably bring it to the next Long Beach show where I can have a few others take a peek at either my first matte proof or my $242 education into matte proofs

I'll do some more experimenting with my new camera to see if I can get any better pictures, but that isn't looking good yet, might need to buy that new photography book

rhedden · July 24, 2008 1:33AM

Auctioneer should issue a refund because the item was misidentified as a proof, when it is actually a less valuable business strike. That is not the right way to run an auction. You simply didn't get what you paid for. Tell them you realized right after the auction that they described it incorrectly, and get your money back.

TomB · July 24, 2008 2:44AM

That isn't a matte proof. Return the coin ASAP if you want to put your money to better use instead of having $200+ tied up into a damaged business strike worth only a fraction of the money paid out.

Broadstruck · July 24, 2008 2:52AM

Just a business strike with a bit of a wire rim, which I feel why the seller instantly thought it was a proof.

1834 · July 24, 2008 2:58AM

<< The auctioneer guarantees authenticity for life and if I decide to return it I don't expect any trouble with this relatively small amount given that I spent much more on other coins.
>>

You may want to seek out second opinions on the other coins purchased as well?

CarlWohlforth · July 24, 2008 3:03AM

<<That isn't a matte proof. Return the coin ASAP if you want to put your money to better use instead of having $200+ tied up into a damaged business strike worth only a fraction of the money paid out.>>

Agreed.

Many very experienced people here are sure it isn't a proof. If you still are not convinced you won't need more than a 10x loupe to check diagnostics given in the link above. It is much easier to get a refund now -- who knows if the auctioneer/auction house will honor a return or even still be in business in the future?

RedneckHB · July 24, 2008 3:20AM

I'll definitely take it to my local dealer next time I visit for his opinion and if he isn't 100% sure I'll probably bring it to the next Long Beach show where I can have a few others take a peek at either my first matte proof or my $242 education into matte proofs

No reason to wait. IT IS NOT A MPL!!!

ricko · July 24, 2008 3:28AM

I suggest you listen to the experts and return it now.... Cheers, RickO

curly · July 24, 2008 5:28AM

<< The auctioneer guarantees authenticity for life and if I decide to return it I don't expect any trouble with this relatively small amount given that I spent much more on other coins. >>

Brother, nothing against auctioneers but I've been around enough of them to know that they wouldn't guarantee that coin to be a proof. What they will do is guarantee it to look like a proof. Big difference when you ask to get your money back.

tahoe98 · July 24, 2008 5:59AM

curly is spot on..

GrumpyEd · July 24, 2008 6:08AM

The rev looks like it has a woodgrain surface like I see on bus strikes around that time.

Do MPLs ever have woodgrain surfaces?

robec · July 24, 2008 6:41AM

<< The rev looks like it has a woodgrain surface like I see on bus strikes around that time.

Do MPLs ever have woodgrain surfaces?

>>

Mine appears to have a touch of it.

ambro51 · July 24, 2008 6:43AM

Yes they can have woodgrain surfaces indeed.

Tyler1924S · July 24, 2008 6:44AM

A slightly off-center business strike. Would like to see a better pic of the reverse to see if that's woodgrain, lamination, or a combination of both. Can't determine for sure if there's damage to the reverse from these pics. One thing's for sure (aside from it not being MP), the reverse is missing detail (as if late die state or weak strike).

Arizonadesertrat · July 24, 2008 7:18AM

This is a textbook example of how not to go about purchasing coins. MPL prices have been going up and up, especially during the last 18 months. This purported one is raw, priced at about 50% (or less) of what a decent PR63 one should bring. These things should set off alarm bells in any potential buyer. The buyer bought it without knowing the appropriate die characteristics real proof 1915 cents. When a coin is billed as desirable while being seriously underpriced, it almost always itsn't what the seller asserts it is (i.e., there will be an undisclosed problem).

If the buyer has, as indicated, spent a lot more on other coins, one can only hope that his prior purchases were made with more knowledge and caution. There is no free lunch in the coin business.

ArizonaJack · July 24, 2008 8:49AM

That coin need to get back to seller ASAP for a refund. If you cannot yourself tell the differance, you dont need to be buying raw MPL's, you need to be buying books first or slabbed coins.

ambro51 · July 24, 2008 9:22AM

So....despite what some may say regarding the slab vs. raw issue for coins in general......when it comes to Matte Proof Lincolns, the slab value is paramount.

Of course this is not to say that "some' business strikes have fooled the pros and made it into plastic...but thats a whole different ball of yarn.

Some time ago I wrote an Ebay guide on Matte Proof Lincolns, and hopefully that has assisted some potential buyers in making a decision on a raw coin purchase.

Dont be too hard on the OP though...we have ALL done things which in retrospect have turned out to be not great ideas.

illini420 · July 24, 2008 10:28AM

Thanks again to everyone for your thoughts on this. Greatly appreciate the honesty, even though some of it is brutally honest

I took it to a local dealer I use and he confirmed that he's 99.9% sure it's not a matte proof. Then he went to the back of the store and pulled out 3 PGCS graded 1915 matte proofs and let me compare. And I 99.9% agree

While somewhat disappointed, I'm not upset about it. I'm a grown up. Even though I know better than to buy this coin raw, especially since the price was relatively low and since I don't know the series, I liked the look of the coin and I guess I'm sort of a gambler too. Get caught up with emotion instead of common sense in live auctions as well. Don't worry much about my other purchases, most were in PCGS or NGC plastic at least I have some help with those ones

Anyways, I figured out how to turn on the macro feature of my new camera so here's a couple of larger pics just for the heck of it. The color isn't exactly right on these, especially on the reverse pic, but they do show more detail. Again, thanks for all of the responses. Will pursue a return and keep my fingers crossed that I don't have much trouble with that. I agree that auctioneers sometimes list as "proof like" but this was clearly listed as "1915 Matte Proof63BN one of just 1150 coined" in the catalog.

FishyOne · July 24, 2008 10:34AM

I'll buy it from for $100 if you can't return it!

copperfan · July 24, 2008 10:37AM

Am I the only person here that is seeing what looks to be a planchet flaw on the reverse? I am not 100% sure, but it does not look like it was "scraped".

RedneckHB · July 24, 2008 10:38AM

Then he went to the back of the store and pulled out 3 PGCS graded 1915 matte proofs and let me compare.

3 1915's eh? And who might this wonderful dealer be?

illini420 · July 24, 2008 10:41AM

<< Am I the only person here that is seeing what looks to be a planchet flaw on the reverse? I am not 100% sure, but it does not look like it was "scraped". >>

I sort of thought that at first too, but I'm not very experienced in determining a planchet flaw, let alone matte proofs

Especially thought it might be planchet issues since the marks between the "N" and "T" of CENT are on the field and the surrounding letters don't have big cuts in them. I only said "scraped" because at the very top of the left wheat ear, that mark looks cut into the wheat. Not sure if that is post mint damage for sure or not...

ambro51 · July 24, 2008 10:52AM

How about someone who actually has a mattie that is not in plastic shooting an identical edge view?

It is easy to see on the OP's coin the vertical lines of the collar impression. which the mattie dosent have.

Isnt this all fun? And I thought thurday would be boring, even though it is "COLLARLESS THURSDAY", the day you get to take the collar off you cat all day!!

illini420 · July 24, 2008 12:32PM

<< Then he went to the back of the store and pulled out 3 PGCS graded 1915 matte proofs and let me compare.

3 1915's eh? And who might this wonderful dealer be? >>

Goldcoast Coin on Ventura Blvd. in Woodland Hills, CA. Always have had good experiences there.

They 3 1915s were PR64BN, PR64RB and PR64RD. Very cool getting to see them all side by side next to my matte wannabe. Didn't even ask if they were for sale, was just in awe having them brought out just like that

CarlWohlforth · July 24, 2008 12:45PM

That is a fantastic improvement in photography!

droopyd · July 24, 2008 12:54PM

<< Goldcoast Coin on Ventura Blvd. in Woodland Hills, CA. Always have had good experiences there. >>

note to self... make drive to valley....

seanq · July 24, 2008 1:24PM

<< 

<< Then he went to the back of the store and pulled out 3 PGCS graded 1915 matte proofs and let me compare.

3 1915's eh? And who might this wonderful dealer be? >>

Goldcoast Coin on Ventura Blvd. in Woodland Hills, CA. Always have had good experiences there.

They 3 1915s were PR64BN, PR64RB and PR64RD. Very cool getting to see them all side by side next to my matte wannabe. Didn't even ask if they were for sale, was just in awe having them brought out just like that

>>

I'll tell you what, you might have had some bad luck (mixed with questionable judgment) when you bought that coin, but I'll bet you walked into the only shop in America with three 1915 MPLs in inventory for comparison. By the time this thread is over, Gold Coast may owe you a commission.

Sean Reynolds

illini420 · July 24, 2008 1:31PM

<< 

I'll tell you what, you might have had some bad luck (mixed with questionable judgment) when you bought that coin, but I'll bet you walked into the only shop in America with three 1915 MPLs in inventory for comparison. By the time this thread is over, Gold Coast may owe you a commission.

Sean Reynolds >>

And I thought 1915 was one of the tougher dates....

illini420 · July 31, 2008 5:28PM

Thanks again to everyone who offered their opinions on this coin here, in PM and via e-mail. Greatly appreciated. Just figured I'd update you all. I contacted the auctioneer and they are willing to accept the coin back for a full refund. Thanks again!!!

New Purchase - Apparently Not a 1915 Matte Proof Lincoln (new larger pics added)

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