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Poll: Does PCGS Guarantee for Authenticity?
FatMan
Posts: 8,977 ✭
Does PCGS Guarantee for Authenticity? Lots of posts about this. What do you believe?
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Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Yes, of course they do. Only a dullard would believe ottherwise.
Russ, NCNE >>
Any specific dullards in mind?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
However, they don't specify the manner in which compensation to the purchaser of a counterfeit coin which has mistakenly been certified by PCGS, will be determined.
<< <i>Yes, of course they do.
However, they don't specify the manner in which compensation to the purchaser of a counterfeit coin which has mistakenly been certified by PCGS, will be determined.
Being you are educated as a lawyer, although non-practicing, maybe you can answer what kind of guarantee that is?
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes, of course they do.
However, they don't specify the manner in which compensation to the purchaser of a counterfeit coin which has mistakenly been certified by PCGS, will be determined.
Being you are educated as a lawyer, although non-practicing, maybe you can answer what kind of guarantee that is? >>
A vague one, a potentially illusory one, one that gives them the flexibility to handle different situations differently and one that was arrived at with the sole purpose of driving MBT crazy.
<< <i>Total Votes: 12
Yes?
11 (votes) 91.67 (%)
No?
1 (votes) 8.33 (%) >>
I see the dullard has voted.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>Total Votes: 12
Yes?
11 (votes) 91.67 (%)
No?
1 (votes) 8.33 (%) >>
I see the dullard has voted.
Russ, NCNE >>
Thanks Russ, that dullard would be me.
<< <i>and one that was arrived at with the sole purpose of driving MBT crazy. >>
<< <i><< Total Votes: 12
Yes?
11 (votes) 91.67 (%)
No?
1 (votes) 8.33 (%) >>
I see the dullard has voted.
Russ, NCNE >>
Thanks Russ, that dullard would be me. >>
Standing in for MBT?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i><< Total Votes: 12
Yes?
11 (votes) 91.67 (%)
No?
1 (votes) 8.33 (%) >>
I see the dullard has voted.
Russ, NCNE >>
Thanks Russ, that dullard would be me. >>
Standing in for MBT?
Russ, NCNE >>
We Fat Guys need to stick together.
Nice........
I thought not.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Yes.
absolutly
<< <i>Yes. >>
Well, there you have it! Now MajorDoofus can stop trolling (yeah, right).
WOW, what a landslide...46 to 5.
TC71
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes, of course they do.
However, they don't specify the manner in which compensation to the purchaser of a counterfeit coin which has mistakenly been certified by PCGS, will be determined.
Being you are educated as a lawyer, although non-practicing, maybe you can answer what kind of guarantee that is? >>
The answer is illusory or specious.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes, of course they do.
However, they don't specify the manner in which compensation to the purchaser of a counterfeit coin which has mistakenly been certified by PCGS, will be determined.
Being you are educated as a lawyer, although non-practicing, maybe you can answer what kind of guarantee that is? >>
The answer is illusory or specious. >>
An answer has to take into account the notion that they likely want to take each counterfeit on a case by case basis.
What you seek is an answer to a question that has not come up yet; you do not have such a coin and therefore they are not required to buy it back from you.
Unless you have such a coin and are trying to negotiate in this roundabout manner, trying to get PCGS to commit to some formula so you can decide whether and when to announce that you have such an item and want compensated in order to maximize your return on the item instead of doing the right thing and sending it in when you realized it was a bogo.
I don't blame PCGS at all for wanting to approach this one item at a time. I do not think people shoulod be allowed to hold a piece until they see an advantage for them in some price guide and try to play a shakedown PCGS. I don't think anyone should be subject to a scam like that. Your continued insistence on PCGS to provide a guarantee that YOU are happy with, even though many have used it and had no issues, just makes you look like you have ulterior motives to me.
You either have such a coin and a claim or you don't. Which is it?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes, of course they do.
However, they don't specify the manner in which compensation to the purchaser of a counterfeit coin which has mistakenly been certified by PCGS, will be determined.
Being you are educated as a lawyer, although non-practicing, maybe you can answer what kind of guarantee that is? >>
The answer is illusory or specious. >>
An answer has to take into account the notion that they likely want to take each counterfeit on a case by case basis.
What you seek is an answer to a question that has not come up yet; you do not have such a coin and therefore they are not required to buy it back from you.
Unless you have such a coin and are trying to negotiate in this roundabout manner, trying to get PCGS to commit to some formula so you can decide whether and when to announce that you have such an item and want compensated in order to maximize your return on the item instead of doing the right thing and sending it in when you realized it was a bogo.
I don't blame PCGS at all for wanting to approach this one item at a time. I do not think people shoulod be allowed to hold a piece until they see an advantage for them in some price guide and try to play a shakedown PCGS. I don't think anyone should be subject to a scam like that. Your continued insistence on PCGS to provide a guarantee that YOU are happy with, even though many have used it and had no issues, just makes you look like you have ulterior motives to me.
You either have such a coin and a claim or you don't. Which is it? >>
I have no pending claim or ulterior motive.
What I have is a meangingful collection containing many PCGS certified coins. I am concerned that PCGS makes reference to the "PCGS Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity--Customer Bill of Rights" that doesn't say diddly squat about guaranteeing authenticity other than in the title.
I beleive anuone who owns PCGS coins is entitled to a definitive written guaranty, plain and simple.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
You could have distilled that down to a single sentence:
MBT is an idiot.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Stiffy,
You could have distilled that down to a single sentence:
MBT is an idiot.
Russ, NCNE >>
Pot calling the Kettle black??
<< <i>
I have no pending claim or ulterior motive.
What I have is a meangingful collection containing many PCGS certified coins. I am concerned that PCGS makes reference to the "PCGS Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity--Customer Bill of Rights" that doesn't say diddly squat about guaranteeing authenticity other than in the title.
I beleive anuone who owns PCGS coins is entitled to a definitive written guaranty, plain and simple. >>
Isee the title as "definitive" enough to go to court and demand redress. I see it as "written" enough to go to court and demand redress. Isee it as "plain and simple" enough to allow a court or arbitrator to make a determination of compensation for the aggrieved party in the absence of an agreement or settlement between the parties. (PCGS and the owner of the ostensible counterfeit in a PCGS slab)
So, how many people has PCGS screwed on their guarantee that you know of? (in round numbers, please) Zero?
If you don't like the way PCGS operates, the door is there ~~~~>
Most here consider you a whining troll.
I personally feel that you give the legal profession a black eye by being a troll.
I also personally feel that you do the legal profession a disservice by not even catching on that there are those who would hold a counterfeit in hopes of maximizing PCGS's refund, and that to guarantee the item in the title is good enough to secure the right to compensation. Are you truly that daft?
Is there any case of PCGS not guaranteeing authenticity?
I thought not.
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Reply
Quote
homerunhall
Collector
Posts: 2180
Joined: Apr 2001
Friday June 16, 2006 10:33 PM (NEW!)
Yes.
*************************************************
What is HRH answering? The poll question or the prior post? I assume the former. However, like the so-called guaranty of authenticity, this is somewhat ambiguous and illusory.
<< <i>Stiffy,
You could have distilled that down to a single sentence:
MBT is an idiot.
Russ, NCNE >>
I was absent during distillations class. It is too hot to boil anything down, too.
IOW, you had your fun poking sticks at the troll last year when he and Javajune had a tet a tet. WTF is it that I can't have a turn with the doorknob?
It goes deeper than the average troll. He is a lawyer. Lawyers are "supposed" to be leaders of the community, not trolls.
If you don't like not getting what you want, MBT, keep whining. Just keep it up as the resident poster boy for the maxim that a law degree doesn't automatically make person sensible, wise, or circumspect.
<< <i>Does the guarantee of authenticity cover a coin's pedigree as represented on the insert.
As currently written, it doesn't cover much (if anything).
Thanks, MBT, but I know what you think.
<< <i>-- "As currently written, it doesn't cover much (if anything)." --
Thanks, MBT, but I know what you think.
Your question was directed to a large audience, to be sure!
Does it, or does it not, confer upon the owner of such counterfeit a right of redress?
<< <i>Does the guarantee of authenticity cover a coin's pedigree as represented on the insert.
Ask JadeRareCoin.
<< <i>Does the guarantee of authenticity cover a coin's pedigree as represented on the insert.
Why not ask PCGS? I believe they would take responsibility for such error, just like with any error they make.
I also think they have the right to assure themselves these type of issues are brought to their attention in good faith, not by someone waiting to "cash in" when they think it advantageous...
Now it is "somewhat" illusory?
It is illusory or it is not.
Either a person can sue and say: Here it is in the title, your honor. See, it says: Authenticity, and that is dispositive on the issue of liability for the counterfeit, leaving at issue NOTHING save the monetary damages recoverable.
Or they can't. You KNOW that that verbiage would allow recovery if settlement does not occur.
Now, how do you decide what to pay for a given counterfeit before it surfaces? On a case by case basis...
Where is your common sense?
Precisely.
<< <i>Yes, of course they do.
However, they don't specify the manner in which compensation to the purchaser of a counterfeit coin which has mistakenly been certified by PCGS, will be determined.
And what would you propose they put in there? A chart?
What about counterfeits yet to be discovered?
I think the guarantee is good enough to get you into court and then you can prove your own damages, just as they try to disprove them in a case where they believe they are being scammed.
What more can you really ask in the guarantee? A specific sum to be paid? How?
I prefer the case by case method in use today because I do not see any other options.
Well there is the option that one guy uses: crack that 1916-D Merc out and give the coin back with no money back. Well, if you twist his arm, you can get back about $3000 of your $3500, in a check, post dated a few weeks hence, that eventually gets the Baltimore Show's organizer sued with you and me and 44 others.
SGS guarantees authenticity for the full price paid. Maybe MBT would be more comfy there.
<< <i><< Yes, of course they do.
However, they don't specify the manner in which compensation to the purchaser of a counterfeit coin which has mistakenly been certified by PCGS, will be determined. >>
And what would you propose they put in there? A chart?
What about counterfeits yet to be discovered? >>
They use a general scale for the grading reimbursement, why not a similar scale for counterfeits? And what does it matter if the counterfeit is newly discovered or not? Are you going to give a different reimbursement for a new fake than an old fake? It is still a fake whether it was known fifty years ago but they missed it, a hundred years ago but just recently recognized (like the micro O dollars), or newly created. Or are you suggesting there should be a different reimbursement for a fake high value than a fake low value one? I would think that either way you should get the fair market value of what a real coin of that grade would be worth.
<< <i>
<< <i><< Yes, of course they do.
However, they don't specify the manner in which compensation to the purchaser of a counterfeit coin which has mistakenly been certified by PCGS, will be determined. >>
And what would you propose they put in there? A chart?
What about counterfeits yet to be discovered? >>
They use a general scale for the grading reimbursement, why not a similar scale for counterfeits? And what does it matter if the counterfeit is newly discovered or not? Are you going to give a different reimbursement for a new fake than an old fake? It is still a fake whether it was known fifty years ago but they missed it, a hundred years ago but just recently recognized (like the micro O dollars), or newly created. Or are you suggesting there should be a different reimbursement for a fake high value than a fake low value one? I would think that either way you should get the fair market value of what a real coin of that grade would be worth. >>
" I would think that either way you should get the fair market value of what a real coin of that grade would be worth."
EXACTLY--But why don't they say it in writing in the so-called guaranty (or "guarantee" as they say)????
In fact, they don't say anything about recourse if a "bad" coin is slabbed--is this fair to the consumer???
<< <i>In fact, they don't say anything about recourse if a "bad" coin is slabbed--is this fair to the consumer??? >>
As an attorney you should recognize that very few companies give accurate upfront disclosure about recourse in any legally definitive and concrete manner concerning negligence or omissions and errors. That most companies do business under a cloak of silence when it concerns possible litigation, and thus why attorneys are utilized to represent people who have claims against the party involved.
If answers and absolute protocol were available for all given possibilities in all given areas in any question of liability for any company, lawyers would find themselves unemployed. PCGS is acting no different from any other business? Firestone does not have a written policy that stated in fact that if a tire spins off an SUV that they would make good the damages associated with such action.
Airlines do not offer written promises about consumer recourse if a plane falls out of the sky. McDonalds does not have a written protocol for consumer review if one of their Big Macs is tainted and one takes ill.
Unlike many companies, PCGS has to date reacted to consumer complaint by correcting this authenticity problem, unlike the aforementioned companies who must be faced with accountability in court. So what if no written guaranty is given regarding authenticity? They have stood behind their product to date.
What is becoming evident is that your questions are striking a sour chord in the forums, that in many ways the reaction to this continued discourse have been negative towards you, you may be within your absolute rights to continually ask for clarification, you may also be thick skinned where the rebuttal is for the most part negative, but yet you continue? Attention seeking perhaps, troll like behavior perhaps? Your questions are probably better served in an attorneys forum where subjective interpretation of why or why not can be more clearly answered. Although I admit, I find this all very interesting.
.....you should recognize that very few companies give accurate upfront disclosure about recourse in any legally definitive and concrete manner concerning negligence or omissions and errors...
Not so-- the vast majority of consumer products and services have express, often limited, warranties with specific recourse. It makes no difference whether you buy a blender or an auto, read the instruction manual and you will find an express warranty with stated recourse.
.....you may be within your absolute rights to continually ask for clarification...
There is no "may" about it IMO.
.... you may also be thick skinned where the rebuttal is for the most part negative...
Spot on!
.....but yet you continue? Attention seeking perhaps, troll like behavior perhaps?
Perhaps I would simply like a definitive statement on the guaranty--there is no hidden agenda. I am somewhat bemused that most others don't seem to "get it."
....Although I admit, I find this all very interesting.
Isn't that the primary purpose of these boards--to engage in an interesting discussion of matters numismatic??
<<Not so-- the vast majority of consumer products and services have express, often limited, warranties with specific recourse. It makes no difference whether you buy a blender or an auto, read the instruction manual and you will find an express warranty with stated recourse.>>
MBT, please provide us with a quick list of the specific recourses listed by consumer product companies in the event that their products are determined to be non-authentic?
More on point, however, please do the same for authenticators of diamonds, stamps, etc.?
Thanks.
You made a claim and should be willing and able to substantiate it. If you were to spend even close to as much time on that as you have posting here and then post the results, you might even gain some support for your crusade.
<< <i><<Do your own research.>>
You made a claim and should be willing and able to substantiate it. If you were to spend even close to as time on that as you have posting here and then post the results, you might even gain some support for your crusade.
like I said "the vast majority of consumer products and services have express, often limited, warranties with specific recourse. It makes no difference whether you buy a blender or an auto, read the instruction manual and you will find an express warranty with stated recourse."
Why don't you give us an example of an blender or auto without such a guaranty/warranty?
I care about coins, and have no information or interest in the practices of those who certify diamonds or stamps. I suspect many do have express guaranties, but will leave it for you to determine if you wish.
I care about coins, and have no information or interest in the practices of those who certify diamonds or stamps. I suspect many do have express guaranties, but will leave it for you to determine if you wish. >>
MBT, even if you aren't acting like it, you no doubt understand that a guarantee/warranty for a product is very different than that for a service, such as authentication. That is why I brought up certification of diamonds, stamps, etc. On that (more on point) comparison you merely "suspect many do have express guaranties" but don't care to check it out.
You're not making much of a case for your argument. I say that as one of the few that had expressed the thought that you'd at least raised a fair question regarding the PCGS guarantee.