Be happy that PCGS does not have a limited express warranty in scope or time frame.
PCGS by rendering an opinion on grade is also rendering opinion on authenticity as the label specifically lists the item being so graded, therefore the assumption that certifying a Bust Half Dollar such and such a grade (guaranteed) is certifying by its very nature that the item is in fact a Bust Half Dollar. A reasonable person would take that at its face value.
Otherwise the certification would state that the Bust Half Dollar Replica is such and such a grade. You cannot guarantee one without the other, as an attorney would you not peruse this angle, or how would you defend a guaranteed grade of a non-genuine coin when it is titled by its legal attribution?
PCGS employs and advertises as such the professional experts who examine coins and in there is a guarantee of their abilities to recognize a coin, if a coin is ascertained to be not real, the credibility of those graders is gone if the error is not corrected, in other words if they don't admit and correct the mistake. They also advertise that they will not grade replica coins.
As I said a few threads ago, the most expensive coin that PCGS has graded would be far cheaper for them to buy back than to suffer the ill press and subsequent loss of business if they didn't do so.
In other words, a three-million dollar counterfeit coin in a slab would cost them tens of that amount in loss if they didn't stand behind it. I am not an attorney, obviously, but its hard to argue logic that they would act any different.
Well PCGS has taken the next step to a much more acceptable written guarantee of authenticity. In the June 26th Coin World, PCGS has a full page ad which includes the statement:
"2) Guaranteed Authentication. PCGS guarantees the authenticity of every coin they grade and we support our promise with a money-back guarantee."
In that, they have specificly addressed authenticity as being guaranteed, and they have alluded to some form of financial compensation if they are found to not be authentic. They haven't said if the compensation would be fair market value or just a return of the grading fees but it is a good start.
David Hall himself posted "yes"---why is this so complicated to understand. It's a "money-back" guarantee. If you spent a ton at auction you get that $ back. If you dug the coin up in the ground, submitted it yourself---what money have you lost? Fees, postage insurance, time --YES!----But your new shovel and metal dectector?--No come on.
<< <i>David Hall himself posted "yes"---why is this so complicated to understand. It's a "money-back" guarantee. If you spent a ton at auction you get that $ back. If you dug the coin up in the ground, submitted it yourself---what money have you lost? Fees, postage insurance, time --YES!----But your new shovel and metal dectector?--No come on. >>
This does raise an interesting point.
Let's say you 'ripped' a raw coin worth $1000 for $50. PCGS later slabs it, thus completing the "rip." Later you decide you want that grade reviewed or you need it reholdered. PCGS comes back and bags it as a fake.
How much do they owe you for their original mistake? $50? $1000? Something else? If they know you only paid $50, is their guarantee limited to the $50 (perhaps the grading fees and shipping to PCGS)? What if they don't know how much you paid? What if you know you only paid $50 but don't divulge that? What if you *forgot* how much you paid?
As much as I think this thread is some quixotic desire to discredit their guarantee, there are some valid questions about just how much PCGS is obligated to compensate in such circumstances.
<<As much as I think this thread is some quixotic desire to discredit their guarantee, there are some valid questions about just how much PCGS is obligated to compensate in such circumstances>>
I agree Ziggy. Also, when PCGS announced it was offering to pay X (as opposed to each owner's actual cost) for each of the Micro-O dollars, that certainly wasn't technically a "money back" application of an authenticity guarantee. I believe that at some point, the concept of "fair market value" must come into play.
In Ziggy's example I don't think the PCGS guarantee applies since the coin owner bought it raw not in a PCGS holder. PCGS does not pay submitters of raw coins on their guarantee because the submitter did not rely on the guarantee. They only pay purchasers of holdered coins.
I know that PCGS pays out a lot for grading guarantees every year and there are few complaints. Anyone know how to look up what they paid out last year?-------------------------------BigE
from my personal experience with gold, I'd say NO...
I bought some fakes early on and didn't know it and sent them in. They came back in body bags. No guarantee for authenticity there. Then I called customer service and said, Hey, When I joined , you guys sent me a graded orb of bullion, not a coin, I wanted the Book that teaches about counterfieting and how to detect. What should I do about these coins ? She said, you could send them back for David to look at under the presidential review ... So I spent a few more dollars, basically for his autograph that said " DEFINITELY Fake, David" I was so naive.
Again, no guarantee of authenticity.
I thought I was going to get a letter from HRH that said :
Dear Joe,
There are die markings, tool marks, sound tests and a host of other ways to determine fakes, if you want to buy the book, buy the book, but these coins you sent back are fake. Your friend, David.
It didn't quite go that way, but after I bought more raw Indians and sent them in, they came back with good grades and in plastic. They were authentic. So, I say YES, they have a guarantee of authenticity if the coins are authentic. But if they aren't... the answer is
NO, there is no guarantee of authenticity from PCGS. No matter how many fakes I send, they will not guarantee the authenticity I am guaranteed, however, to have a tax write off by donating said objects to the ANA for purposes of teaching. Who taught me that from here ? Thank you !
<< <i>As much as I think this thread is some quixotic desire to discredit their guarantee, there are some valid questions about just how much PCGS is obligated to compensate in such circumstances >>
There is no desire in the thread to discredit their guarantee, and there couldn't be because they didn't HAVE one. It was more a desire to get them to actually state that they WOULD guarantee the authenticity of the coins that they have slabbed. (No one ever suggested that should guarantee that the raw coins sent in were authentic. No guarantee either for grading or authenticity could possibly apply until after the coins were slabbed.) Finally with the Coin World ad I mentioned in my last post they are finally for the first time actually stating in print that the DO guarantee authenticity, and that they have a money back policy. It still isn't a clearly set forth as their grading guarantee, but it is a big step forward and THAT has been the goal of we annoying little pests.
<< <i>There is no desire in the thread to discredit their guarantee.... >>
Not in THIS thread, true, but I'm just going on some of MBT's rants. I don't think there's a question that there IS a guarantee...but merely that sometimes, the level of protection it provides seems a bit vague and dependent on circumstances.
Comments
PCGS by rendering an opinion on grade is also rendering opinion on authenticity as the label specifically lists the item being so graded, therefore the assumption that certifying a Bust Half Dollar such and such a grade (guaranteed) is certifying by its very nature that the item is in fact a Bust Half Dollar. A reasonable person would take that at its face value.
Otherwise the certification would state that the Bust Half Dollar Replica is such and such a grade. You cannot guarantee one without the other, as an attorney would you not peruse this angle, or how would you defend a guaranteed grade of a non-genuine coin when it is titled by its legal attribution?
PCGS employs and advertises as such the professional experts who examine coins and in there is a guarantee of their abilities to recognize a coin, if a coin is ascertained to be not real, the credibility of those graders is gone if the error is not corrected, in other words if they don't admit and correct the mistake. They also advertise that they will not grade replica coins.
As I said a few threads ago, the most expensive coin that PCGS has graded would be far cheaper for them to buy back than to suffer the ill press and subsequent loss of business if they didn't do so.
In other words, a three-million dollar counterfeit coin in a slab would cost them tens of that amount in loss if they didn't stand behind it. I am not an attorney, obviously, but its hard to argue logic that they would act any different.
even if I paid one dollar and a real one "would be" worth a million dollars?
I think they should (and would) reimburse you for what you LOST, not what you "would have made"
(if you understand the distinction, you will understand my previous comments, as well)
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Yes, of course they do. Only a dullard would believe ottherwise. >>
Only ten dullards so far? I would've guessed there'd be more 'round here...
"2) Guaranteed Authentication. PCGS guarantees the authenticity of every coin they grade and we support our promise with a money-back guarantee."
In that, they have specificly addressed authenticity as being guaranteed, and they have alluded to some form of financial compensation if they are found to not be authentic. They haven't said if the compensation would be fair market value or just a return of the grading fees but it is a good start.
<< <i>David Hall himself posted "yes"---why is this so complicated to understand. It's a "money-back" guarantee. If you spent a ton at auction you get that $ back. If you dug the coin up in the ground, submitted it yourself---what money have you lost? Fees, postage insurance, time --YES!----But your new shovel and metal dectector?--No come on. >>
This does raise an interesting point.
Let's say you 'ripped' a raw coin worth $1000 for $50. PCGS later slabs it, thus completing the "rip." Later you decide you want that grade reviewed or you need it reholdered. PCGS comes back and bags it as a fake.
How much do they owe you for their original mistake? $50? $1000? Something else? If they know you only paid $50, is their guarantee limited to the $50 (perhaps the grading fees and shipping to PCGS)? What if they don't know how much you paid? What if you know you only paid $50 but don't divulge that? What if you *forgot* how much you paid?
As much as I think this thread is some quixotic desire to discredit their guarantee, there are some valid questions about just how much PCGS is obligated to compensate in such circumstances.
I agree Ziggy. Also, when PCGS announced it was offering to pay X (as opposed to each owner's actual cost) for each of the Micro-O dollars, that certainly wasn't technically a "money back" application of an authenticity guarantee. I believe that at some point, the concept of "fair market value" must come into play.
CG
I bought some fakes early on and didn't know it and sent them in. They came back in body bags. No guarantee for authenticity there.
Then I called customer service and said, Hey, When I joined , you guys sent me a graded orb of bullion, not a coin, I wanted the Book that teaches about counterfieting and how to detect. What should I do about these coins ? She said, you could send them back for David to look at under the presidential review
Again, no guarantee of authenticity.
I thought I was going to get a letter from HRH that said :
Dear Joe,
There are die markings, tool marks, sound tests and a host of other ways to determine fakes, if you want to buy the book, buy the book, but these coins you sent back are fake.
Your friend,
David.
It didn't quite go that way, but after I bought more raw Indians and sent them in, they came back with good grades and in plastic. They were authentic. So, I say YES, they have a guarantee of authenticity if the coins are authentic. But if they aren't... the answer is
NO, there is no guarantee of authenticity from PCGS.
No matter how many fakes I send, they will not guarantee the authenticity
I am guaranteed, however, to have a tax write off by donating said objects to the ANA for purposes of teaching. Who taught me that from here ? Thank you !
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>As much as I think this thread is some quixotic desire to discredit their guarantee, there are some valid questions about just how much PCGS is obligated to compensate in such circumstances >>
There is no desire in the thread to discredit their guarantee, and there couldn't be because they didn't HAVE one. It was more a desire to get them to actually state that they WOULD guarantee the authenticity of the coins that they have slabbed. (No one ever suggested that should guarantee that the raw coins sent in were authentic. No guarantee either for grading or authenticity could possibly apply until after the coins were slabbed.) Finally with the Coin World ad I mentioned in my last post they are finally for the first time actually stating in print that the DO guarantee authenticity, and that they have a money back policy. It still isn't a clearly set forth as their grading guarantee, but it is a big step forward and THAT has been the goal of we annoying little pests.
<< <i>There is no desire in the thread to discredit their guarantee.... >>
Not in THIS thread, true, but I'm just going on some of MBT's rants. I don't think there's a question that there IS a guarantee...but merely that sometimes, the level of protection it provides seems a bit vague and dependent on circumstances.