Free Presidential Review results

homerunhall · December 13, 2005 12:05PM

Hi Everybody,

A while back several board members complained that PCGS had "tightened up" the grading standards. Since I'm in the grading room quite a bit, know how things work in the room, and see a lot of how shall we say it "hopeful" Presidential Reviews...I was skeptical. But as a service to you all (and to make sure personally that things were as they should be)...I offered to do free Presidential Reviews and then let you know the results.

Interestingly, only a few of you took me up on the offer. But I did do about 10 reviews...about 100 coins total. What I saw was about what I expected...hope springs eternal, or as I sometimes say, "Ownership adds a point." Here are a few examples...

1923 Mercury dime...Submitter expected 64, our grade was AU58 and the coin had clear and obvious wear.

1937 Mercury dime...Submitter expected 67FB or 68FB but the coin had an obvious scratch, not minor mark but scratch, on the face.

"How come this Jeffereson nickel isn't at least 68CAM?" Because of the obvious carbon spots on the forehead...they weren't humongous, but you didn't need a glass to see them.

There was one order of Lincoln cents in which I didn't think a single coin had even a shot at a higher grade.

I'm sure the skeptics will feel this is the party line but I can only report what I see and the bottom line is...

1. PCGS does not loosen or tighten its grading standards. We don't have discussions about moving the line. We just try to grade the coins as accurately and consistently as possible. Is it possible to send a coin in multiple times and get different grades. Sure...it's the nature of the subjective process. But the fact is we just try to grade them as we see them.

2. Very few people have the grading skills that match the PCGS graders. You are probably missing something on the coin if you think it's undergraded. You might be right, but you're probably not. Even the pros who play the crack-out game have their share of misses. They may tell you about the hits, but they tell me (and complain) about the misses. I see it every day with Presidential Reviews in the grading room and every time I'm at a show doing "Meet The Expert." HOPE SPRINGS ETERNAL...and OWNERSHIP ADDS A POINT...or two!

So that's what happened. My advice...have fun and enjoy your coins. Leave the crack out GAMBLING to the pros.

Thanks,

David

Russ · December 13, 2005 12:11PM

Oh great! A thread with excellent potential that gets posted right before I'm heading home.

Russ, NCNE

Crazy4Coins · December 13, 2005 12:15PM

"How come this Jeffereson nickel isn't at least 68CAM?" Because of the obvious carbon spots on the forehead...they weren't humongous, but you didn't need a glass to see them.

Wonder if this was one of Martys...

Touchdown · December 13, 2005 12:16PM

Thanks for voluntarily stepping up to the plate and giving us your input.

coinbuf · December 13, 2005 12:19PM

That was his plan Russ LOL. I think that most here were appeceative of your offer David but in reality the window of opportunity that was given for this test was too small for most hence the light number of responses. Had your timeframe of when the submissions had to be posted between been different/larger you would have gotten a larger sampleing. Now would that have changed the results is anyones guess.

Chris

FatMan · December 13, 2005 12:20PM

How many, if any of the 100 coins upgraded? That seems to be missing from the bottom line. Thanks.

BECOKA · December 13, 2005 12:29PM

I joined this forum well after this option was offered but I am glad to see results like this. I gives me confidence in the grades that I receive and at least with gold coins I have pretty much gotten what I expected. Although it can't hurt to try to get that 64.7 bumped to a 65.2 every now and then.

Thanks David. You have always replied to e-mails with great answers also, although sometimes a month or so to reply.

Russ · December 13, 2005 12:31PM

<< How many, if any of the 100 coins upgraded? >>

I know of one that did, (out of six sent).

Russ, NCNE

Crazy4Coins · December 13, 2005 12:32PM

Boy you made it home quick...

ms70 · December 13, 2005 12:35PM

Thank you for doing that, David. I feel when the president of a company takes the time to answer such questions or respond to such challenges for the customer base, it strongly
boosts confidence in the product or service.

Moving on now, when will we see a PCGS holder that gives an edge view?

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · December 13, 2005 12:35PM

David,

Please give us an example of a liner coin.A coin (a Lincoln cent)
on the cusp of 67 and better than any 66 you have ever seen.

Will the graders call the coin an ms 67 where the value goes from $10,000 to $50,000 ? Or will I get the coin back as an ms 66 ?

Stewart

Russ · December 13, 2005 12:37PM

<< Boy you made it home quick... >>

Still at work, but headed out the door. No computer at home, so I'll have to catch up tomorrow.

Russ, NCNE

coinlieutenant · December 13, 2005 12:38PM

Good question Stew.

lloydmincy · December 13, 2005 12:40PM

Lord Master: Cusp of 67 but better than any other 66 is still a 66.

Sunnywood · December 13, 2005 12:42PM

HRH,

Here's a question: why do the crackout guys crack the coins out? I know PCGS says it makes no difference at all, and if the coin is submitted in a PCGS holder it will still get cracked out and re-graded the same way as if it was submitted raw. The crackout guys have a lot of experience, and they all seem to think it's better to crack the coins out and submit them raw. Is there any conceivable truth to this?

Rumor used to be that if you sent in a coin for regrade in the holder, the original grade would carry weight in the finalizing. Also rumor was, if you sent in 5 or 10 PQ coins, and TOO MANY of them upgraded, some would get knocked back down. If the coins were sent in raw, this wouldn't happen. Anyway, that was one rationale that a well-known crackout guy gave me for physically removing the coins from the holders.

We all remember the picture of Steve Contursi with the huge mound of inserts. Obviously, he doesn't submit coins for regrade in the holders.

What is going on here? Why do all the crackout guys refuse to submit in the holder? Can they all be wrong?

Best,
Sunnywood

relayer · December 13, 2005 1:35PM

<< 
1923 Mercury dime...Submitter expected 64, our grade was AU58 and the coin had clear and obvious wear.

1937 Mercury dime...Submitter expected 67FB or 68FB but the coin had an obvious scratch, not minor mark but scratch, on the face.

"How come this Jeffereson nickel isn't at least 68CAM?" Because of the obvious carbon spots on the forehead...they weren't humongous, but you didn't need a glass to see them.
>>

Wear, scratches, spots - it sounds like the submitters were all a bunch of chuckleheads.

centmaster · December 13, 2005 1:50PM

<< Wear, scratches, spots - it sounds like the submitters were all a bunch of chuckleheads.

>>

I agree. It paints a picture of us all as dummys. The short time frame probably forced people to take their chances with the only batch that happened to be ready during the very short window. A worthy effort and a great gesture on David's part, but it falls a bit short on what we were really after- answers. I would love an answer to Stewart's question, for example. I had the very same discussion with David awhile ago, as I'm sure many here have, but I've never gotten a clear cut answer as to why many Lincolns graded 3+years ago are in 67 holders and coins of the same date which blow them away can't get out of 66 holders now. I haven't gotten a 67 in a year and a half. Either the old 67s are overgraded or the new 66s are undergraded. It can't be both.

Touchdown · December 13, 2005 2:20PM

but I've never gotten a clear cut answer as to why many Lincolns graded 3+years ago are in 67 holders and coins of the same date which blow them away can't get out of 66 holders now. TextTextText

<< Text >>

I have seen some new coins being graded MS 67 in the Lincoln Cent series. If, anyone has a pop report from 6 months ago check on the 57D, 58P and D I beleive were the ones I noticed the pop's change recently. I was going to bid on some of these dates at a Heritage Auction and noticed the pop's had gone up recently. There might be more but these were the only ones I was looking at for this particular auction.

raycyca · December 13, 2005 2:20PM

Thanks David for the response. I appreciate what you have done in your VERY busy time. Some will complain that it took too long since you ONLY had to do 100 coins. We all have to pick things apart, like grading. One question does come to mind. I don't collect Jeffs, BUT, I am curious about the grade. Did the carbon spot prevent it from getting into a 68 holder, OR, did it prevent it from getting into a CAM holder? Because technically, if you have a frost break (carbon spot?), then the coin gets a CAM designation. OR, maybe because of NO frost in the carbon spot are, NO cam? Thanks in advance. Ray

PS: I have only submitted a single coin for presidential review and it WAS this year. It was a 1972 type 2 Ike. I bought it for $2. It came back as an MS 64. Not collecting Ike's, and the HUGE price increase in a 65 holder, I had to gamble. I lost but it is graded properly against others that I have purchased since.

morgannut2 · December 13, 2005 2:41PM

It's great that DH took his time to look at these coins-- Because he knows there is "opinion" involved for 100 coins I'd expect there to be a few upgrades and more importantly DOWNGRADES (because DH was looking carefully)-- with 100 cons this gives us a quick percentage of unders/overs which would be interesting--but of coarse not statistically significant.--------------------------
So what was the upgrade/downgrade percentage??

mgoodm3 · December 13, 2005 3:28PM

"Ownership adds a point."

i like this quote a lot.

BECOKA · December 13, 2005 3:41PM

"Ownership adds a point."

i like this quote a lot.

So If I own an MS62 and call it a 63 because I am the owner then the next owner is buying a 63 on my word and calls it a 64 and so on. Pretty soon you need a bigger scale.

LucyBop · December 13, 2005 5:32PM

<< "Ownership adds a point."

i like this quote a lot.

>>

I made this point in another thread, we tend to view our coins in a better light then what a professional grader may or even
fellow collectors....

WaterSport · December 13, 2005 8:31PM

I have a hand full of Lincolns in old green holders. They are DARN nice looking, all MS 65. I have been tempted a half dozen times to submit them. I feel at least one could and should go to MS 66. But you know what, I also feel that compared to my other MS 65 Lincolns, these are probably just the High end MS 65, and the others are the low end. In fact, feel that most of the really good stuff was submitted earlier on, thus what is being graded now is not nearly the quality of coin PCGS once received. So it’s not the grading standards that have changed over time, it’s the coins being graded.

WS

zeus135 · December 13, 2005 9:00PM

With all the whining that was going on, I thought we'd see more than 10 Presidential reviews.

Still, with about 100 coins submitted for review, how many were upgraded?

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · December 13, 2005 11:13PM

Ownership adds a point

So when I sell my coin to Steve Contursi it will go up a point

After all he is a dealer/businessman and not a collector

Stewart

Steve · December 13, 2005 11:16PM

I keep saying that "It's all about the MONEY". It really doesn't matter what the grade on the label shows if YOU like the coin that is in the holder. BUT, the truth is it is NOT about the coin and the fact that YOU or a hundred of your buddys like the coin. It is ONLY about what grade PCGS gives the coin. Why? Because, when all is said and done, we are not just collecting coins. We are trying to make money on them. And, we just won't accept the fact that coin grading is subjective. Each of us has our own opinion on grade. I say buy the coin at the price YOU feel comfortable with. What you can later sell the coin for is what your buyer feels comfortable with paying. Profitability in the transaction is a gamble. PERIOD. JMHO. Steve

bushmaster8 · December 13, 2005 11:44PM

<< HRH,

Here's a question: why do the crackout guys crack the coins out? I know PCGS says it makes no difference at all, and if the coin is submitted in a PCGS holder it will still get cracked out and re-graded the same way as if it was submitted raw. The crackout guys have a lot of experience, and they all seem to think it's better to crack the coins out and submit them raw. Is there any conceivable truth to this?

Rumor used to be that if you sent in a coin for regrade in the holder, the original grade would carry weight in the finalizing. Also rumor was, if you sent in 5 or 10 PQ coins, and TOO MANY of them upgraded, some would get knocked back down. If the coins were sent in raw, this wouldn't happen. Anyway, that was one rationale that a well-known crackout guy gave me for physically removing the coins from the holders.

We all remember the picture of Steve Contursi with the huge mound of inserts. Obviously, he doesn't submit coins for regrade in the holders.

What is going on here? Why do all the crackout guys refuse to submit in the holder? Can they all be wrong?

Best,
Sunnywood >>

Sunnywood, that is about the best dang question of all time!

I nominate your post for Post of the Year!!

P.S. - Well done HRH!

pragmaticgoat · December 14, 2005 12:07AM

I did my own costly experiment this summer with pcgs. I had several 1971 pcgs ms65 Eisenhower dollars, I picked out the best two, cracked them and sent them in raw. Results: they both came back in MS64 holders...ouch.

ziggy29 · December 14, 2005 12:18AM

<< I did my own costly experiment this summer with pcgs. I had several 1971 pcgs ms65 Eisenhower dollars, I picked out the best two, cracked them and sent them in raw. Results: they both came back in MS64 holders...ouch. >>

Ouch indeed. The cost to submit the coins was the least of your financial loss...

mercurydimeguy · December 14, 2005 1:27AM

I didn't know Mercury Dimes were part of the free offer

Russ · December 14, 2005 1:49AM

<< Wear, scratches, spots - it sounds like the submitters were all a bunch of chuckleheads. >>

They must be suffering from Relayer Syndrome™.

Russ, NCNE

Boom · December 14, 2005 2:58AM

Same here. I conducted my own little experiment and cracked out some PCGS 66 Washingtons that I felt were shot 67s because I have those very same years and mint marks in PCGS 67 and every last one of them came back graded lower.

Then I sold a couple of them and the new owners cracked them out, submitted them raw and this time they came back as originally graded....PCGS 66.

tmot99 · December 14, 2005 4:42AM

Forced response with no real answer. All this and it took 6 months to come up with a response.

homerunhall · December 14, 2005 9:07AM

Sunnywood...I feel that dealers (not all, but many) crack coins out and don't use the regrade service so that they can play with the coins at least a little and sometimes a lot. If I submitted coins to PCGS (and I don't for obvious reasons), I would never crack coins out. I would always use the regrade service where the coin is guaranteed not to go down. I see coins go up in grade in the regrade service every day. Take a tip for the person who knows how it really works...use the regrade service if you think you have a cointhat could go up in grade.

Stewart...a coin on the cusp of 67 that is better than any other 66 is probably still a 66.

Understand this people...over half of the Presidential Reviews I do are not even close to the higher grade. Don't waste your money...look at the coins first...really look at them. If you are not having a lot of success submitting coins...submitt less.

And most of all...have fun and enjoy your coins.

David

Shamika · December 14, 2005 9:47AM

HomeRun,

I'm curious if any of the 100 coins you reviewed were down graded? Contrary to most many opinions here, I think PCGS's grading has become LESS conservative. But that's just my opinion.

Thanks again for the review!

TommyType · December 14, 2005 10:01AM

You know....For some reason, I didn't equate the "HRH" title used to refer to David Hall with "homerunhall".

I thought it was short for "His Royal Highness".....which I thought was pretty dang funny.

Anyway, it was interesting hearing about the poor upgrade choices that some send in. I'm convinced I'll remain a consumer of PCGS products, and not a producer.

BAJJERFAN · December 14, 2005 10:43AM

<< Also rumor was, if you sent in 5 or 10 PQ coins, and TOO MANY of them upgraded, some would get knocked back down. If the coins were sent in raw, this wouldn't happen. Anyway, that was one rationale that a well-known crackout guy gave me for physically >>

IIRC HRH has said many times here that one goal is to get as many as possible of the nicest coins in PCGS holders so why would they penalize smoeone who has the eye to pick out 10 crossovers or upgraders in other holders by intentionally downgrading a few of them. Makes no sense to me.

Hobbyist · December 14, 2005 11:49AM

<< "Ownership adds a point."

i like this quote a lot.

So If I own an MS62 and call it a 63 because I am the owner then the next owner is buying a 63 on my word and calls it a 64 and so on. Pretty soon you need a bigger scale.

>>

Ownership adds one point. Selling adds 2 more points and buying subtracts 3 points. Somehow, in the end, the coin still ends up being what it is.

Coinhusker1 · December 14, 2005 11:57AM

The whole uproar that prompted HRH to offer the free reviews seemed to be a perceived tightening in the grading of modern coins. However, it seems like most of the coins submitted under the offer were NOT moderns.

Unfortunately, the number of modern coins submitted to HRH under the offer was probably not significant enough to make the results meaningful. In fact, the only moderns submitted under the offer that I know of were from Russ.

RGL · December 14, 2005 12:13PM

But, I think David would acknowledge that graders have "off" days ... he once, as a courtesy, reviewed a submission of about 10 SMS coins I had submitted and had been graded. He upgraded three, including one by two points and giving a CAM to another that they had blatantly missed ...

tmot99 · December 14, 2005 12:17PM

<< But, I think David would acknowledge that graders have "off" days ... he once, as a courtesy, reviewed a submission of about 10 SMS coins I had submitted and had been graded. He upgraded three, including one by two points and giving a CAM to another that they had blatantly missed ... >>

Isn't this why they have more than one grader look at it before a grade is issued? I don't accept this as an excuse for inconsistancy.

JRocco · December 14, 2005 12:21PM

When a single point, or a CAM designation could mean thousands literally, a 2 point change should not happen. A 2 point change is a different coin.

LincolnsRule · December 14, 2005 1:05PM

Dear Hrh,
Thanks for the information. I had a handful of Lincolns in that free review but have not seen your notes yet as I have been out of state. I will see them next week. (I do know one upgraded as it changed grade in my reg set.) I will post the results. I happen to also have about 15 pcgs pop top Lincolns all graded over 2 years ago, sent to me on approval by two collectors who are among the top in the registry. I will be able to do a side by side comparison. Maybe I can even post pictures (pending how much time I have).

If you really want to make things right, I suggest you do a similar experiment yourself. Maybe I can send you the coins to look at or maybe some owners of top registry sets would be willing to (most have e-mail addresses listed). Hopefully you and all of the rest of us could learn something about grading and grading consistency. Thanks again for the post.

LincolnsRule

saintguru · December 14, 2005 1:15PM

I will add that I have requested 3 Pres. Reviews. I won one. That is a hell of a batting average!

DennisH · December 14, 2005 1:26PM

I've only sent in one coin for Presidential Review, a 1903 Micro-S Morgan. It went up.

MikeInFL · December 14, 2005 2:07PM

To assume that there's no grade tightening by offering a presidential review and declaring victory after none is found is weak at best.

Do you really think that HRH would ever admit to it if it were ocurring? Call me cynical, but I do not trust that HRH is truly an impartial judge.

The true test would be a blind test. Pass that test and I would change my mind. Until then, I don't give any weight whatsoever to this self-proclaimed declaration of innocence...Mike

p.s. all this being said, I still think PCGS is the best in the business.

Myqqy · December 14, 2005 3:24PM

Wear, scratches, spots - it sounds like the submitters were all a bunch of chuckleheads

The people that are asking the hardest questions are not chuckleheads at all, regardless of the outcome of the 100 coin study....

morgannut2 · December 14, 2005 5:36PM

<< When a single point, or a CAM designation could mean thousands literally, a 2 point change should not happen. A 2 point change is a different coin. >>

That is the opposite of what's happening. A large number of small bust gold has jumped recently way more than 2 points and is the SAME coin--I refer to any number of AU-58's in PCGS holders from auctions that have gone into NGC MS61/62 holders. And even in Morgans I had one AU-58 (at $80) go to NGC MS60Dpl ($350), and at PCGS (an 86O) go from an $80 coin to $6,000 in MS62DMPL. Whether it's just bag marks or real circulation rub causes the biggest difference in opinions and biggest total grade increases-decreases. No big jumps at the 64, 65, 66 level like that IMHO--unless they get some auto putty by the graders on Saints, etc on a bad day.

tmot99 · December 14, 2005 11:08PM

I've had a PCGS half dime go from AU58 to MS63 on a crackout. Either it has wear or not. I certainly felt it was worthy of an upgrade, but didn't expect that big of a jump. My complaint with PCGS is not they are too tight or too loose. They are just inconsistent.

ellewood · December 14, 2005 11:59PM

HRH Writes: "If you are not having a lot of success submitting coins...submitt less"

Free Presidential Review results

Comments

Leave a Comment