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Do major submitters get a break at PCGS?
ModernDollarNut
Posts: 886
I read often here that major submitters gain an advantage. For example, coins subbed through Heritage may gain a point.
Two questions: is this at all true? and if there is some truth, how do the graders know who the submitter is? Rob
Two questions: is this at all true? and if there is some truth, how do the graders know who the submitter is? Rob
Modern dollars are like children - before you know it they'll be all grown up.....
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
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Russ, NCNE
What, then, is the sourse of the rumor that PCGS and NGC play favorites? Or is it just another facet of human nature?
And why did ICG go to the trouble and expense of using an arm's length firm to accept their submissions to "assure anonymity"?
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
Some inconsistencies sometimes I can believe, but a widespread conspiracy to overgrade all coins submitted by "big time" submitters sounds a bit crazy.
It would not benefit PCGS in the end because they would lose respect and credibility, which they have not.
Since they are still #1 in the world, it's obvious most people trust them.
Atleast we don't see PCGS coins all over the HSN TV Coin Shows for sale. They often carry most slabbed coins, except PCGS. I have seen NGC and ICG coins on there in bulk quite a lot. Any sales of NGC or ICG MS-70 coins that HSN has in bulk is alarming to me......
Ditto. In fact, the "bulk" has been graded as tight as non-bulk (and some would now argue even tighter this year). Several bulk submitters have now quit all together it appears, moving on to the "green pastures" of other grading companies.
Not to mention, bulk grading prices are available to ANYONE who wants to submit similar quantities. I am aware of a "newcomer" on the scene (a fellow with a day job), who got the same quote recently as any big dealer would get with that size order. Now, are there dealers getting a better deal than I am right now - no doubt. But, all I would need to do to get the same deal is increase my business accordingly I believe (as could anyone). Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
IEdited to add:They may not get it "right" each and everytime, but it would never be an act of, "Hey, I know this coin's really on an MS64, but let's give it the MS65 grade so the submitter can make a ton of money".
peacockcoins
yes
and if they complain enough to pcgs they sometimes even get more of a break
someone on this thread is speaking with forked tongue
It is not in the top two grading companies' best interests to give preferrential treatment to certain submitters. Placing coins that are inferior for their given grades is not beneficial for their reputation.
There is a saying on the bourse floor that goes like this: "It's not you they don't like, it's your coins".
There is another saying that goes like this: "If you shoot enough bullets at your target you'll hit it eventually".
The graders do not know for sure whose coins they are grading. They may be able to make an educated guess as to who those coins may belong to.
Bulk submissions are more likely graded tightly than not, especially on the coins worthy of a high grade. Special bulk rates are available to anybody if the number of coins that are to be submitted are numerious and thus merit a bulk rate.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>sometimes Do major bulk modern submitters get a break at PCGS?
yes
and if they complain enough to pcgs they sometimes even get more of a break
someone on this thread is speaking with forked tongue >>
michael,
Believe me, complaining to the grading services about your results is not beneficial...I know from previous experiences. It pays to be nice.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
They are more consistent, and that's what it's all about.
Until God or Robots do the grading, an undergrade or overgrade is going to happen once in a while.
I still believe PCGS's standards and trust among the community is best determined by the collectors.
They are well-known for being the most "conservative" graders for coins, and their prices realized prove that most people are willing to pay more for a PCGS graded coin versus any other coin.
In this area they are clearly #1 so people are obviously happy with their services.
Michael,
You just stated that major bulk submitters get a break in terms of grade at PCGS. I am at PCGS every day and know for a fact that the graders do not know whose coins they are grading. You have lied about our company. This is not acceptable. Prove your statement or leave the board.
David Hall
siliconvalleycoins.com
I was going to challenge him too. Darn, you're quick.
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IT APPEARS SO.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Spend a little time cruising Teletrade and compare bulk submitted coins, (those beginning with 7 in the cert number), with non-bulk submitted coins. The answer will be clear.
Russ, NCNE >>
From your statement it can be construed that you believe that bulk submitters do get a break, or grading advantage, from PCGS ?
Can you prove this by showing us examples ?
As you have probably already read in Mr. Halls comments, i'm sure he would like to see you prove it also.
<< <i>
I like seeing these three little guys eat in unison.
<< <i>Michael,
You just stated that major bulk submitters get a break in terms of grade at PCGS. I am at PCGS every day and know for a fact that the graders do not know whose coins they are grading. You have lied about our company. This is not acceptable. Prove your statement or leave the board.
David Hall >>
I agree.
It might be due to something as simple as the very large numbers of coins involved, which inevitably lead to more over-graded coins (and, to be fair possibly more under-graded ones too) than in smaller, non-bulk submissions. The coins that appear to be optimistically graded are the ones more likely to receive attention, as the conservatively graded ones usually get cracked out and/or sent elsewhere.
If you start requiring posters to PROVE their opinions/perceptions, in order to remain forum members, the forum will become quite small.
Andrew
<< <i>David, rightly or wrongly, many collectors and dealers are of the BELIEF that bulk submitters (even without their identities being known to the major grading companies) get breaks in grading.
It might be due to something as simple as the very large numbers of coins involved, which inevitably lead to more over-graded coins (and, to be fair possibly more under-graded ones too) than in smaller, non-bulk submissions. The coins that appear to be optimistically graded are the ones more likely to receive attention, as the conservatively graded ones usually get cracked out and/or sent elsewhere.
If you start requiring posters to PROVE their opinions/perceptions, in order to remain forum members, the forum will become quite small.
EXACTLY! Opinions are like feelings - often beyond rational justification but often passionately held.
For example, if I have 628 pictures of David Hall glued to the wall of my apartment because I think he is the best looking guy ever, that is my opinion, and I am entitled to express it!
(Did I just say that out loud?)
<< <i>David, rightly or wrongly, many collectors and dealers are of the BELIEF that bulk submitters (even without their identities being known to the major grading companies) get breaks in grading. It might be due to something as simple as the very large numbers of coins involved, which inevitably lead to more over-graded coins (and, to be fair possibly more under-graded ones too) than in smaller, non-bulk submissions. The coins that appear to be optimistically graded are the ones more likely to receive attention, as the conservatively graded ones usually get cracked out and/or sent elsewhere. If you start requiring posters to PROVE their opinions/perceptions, in order to remain forum members, the forum will become quite small.
Opinion and conjecture are different than flat out "factual" statements Mark.
To boldly come out and either blatantly or slighly state PCGS grades coins based not on the coin but rather based on the submitter of the coin is, best case, rude and foolish, worse case, purposely dishonest in a vain attempt to forward the poster's personal agenda. Evidence should followed such a bold statement and when it isn't forthcoming... a sincere apology.
peacockcoins
Libel. Slander.
You pick.
<< <i>To boldly come out and either blatantly or slighly state PCGS grades coins based not on the coin but rather based on the submitter of the coin is, best case, rude and foolish, worse case, purposely dishonest in a vain attempt to forward the poster's personal agenda. Evidence should followed such a bold statement and when it isn't forthcoming... a sincere apology. >>
Pat, I sure didn't get anywhere near all of that out of the post David had a problem with.
Edited to add:
<< <i>often beyond rational justification .... >>
<< <i>if I have 628 pictures of David Hall glued to the wall of my apartment because I think he is the best looking guy ever >>
In my OPINION, that certainly qualifies
<< <i>Opinion and conjecture are different than flat out "factual" statements Mark. >>
Perhaps you didn't read Michael's sig line. I've included it below:
Posts are based on experience and are opinion only. Experiences and opinions of others may differ.
Michael speaks from the heart and what he believes is true. Your opinion of reality may be different but no better, ultimately, than his or mine or anybody else's.
What strikes me as odd is how Mr. Hall reacted to Michael's opinon, yet completely ignored the same answer, if a bit more skillfully worded, from Russ.
Take care...Mike
<< <i>
<< <i>Michael,
You just stated that major bulk submitters get a break in terms of grade at PCGS. I am at PCGS every day and know for a fact that the graders do not know whose coins they are grading. You have lied about our company. This is not acceptable. Prove your statement or leave the board.
David Hall >>
I agree. >>
<< <i>Do major submitters get a break at PCGS? >>
A legitimate question and obviously a touchy subject as a couple of forum members have raised the ire of HRH. HRH's response was direct, and rightly so. But the perception does exist, and regardless of whether there is any basis of fact or not, in many collector's and dealer's minds this does happen. I thought so too, so I have discussed this with many collectors and dealers and this is what I have found out on the question.
The reason that the major submitters seem to often get what we find as favorable grades is because they "Pay for the plastic". We all recognize that grading is subjective (I prefer the term inconsistent). The major players simply use this to their advantage. They simply keep submitting the coin until it receives the maxed out grade. It may take multiple attempts and maybe some never make it. But at the scale these guy play, it is a huge profit maker. And, of course, this is a symbiotic relationship as the TPG makes out big time as well.
So its not that they are getting a break, they are just taking advantage of the inconsistency that is inherent in grading. The end result is a lot of maxed out coins flooding the market from the big boys (& girls). You too can play along if you can afford the submission fees and the turnaround times. But that is a place where the big boys get an advantage.
The conspiracy theory people take disparate and random events, and put them in to a chronology that fits their motives.
BTW -- there are 3 UFO's at Roswell and we never landed a man on the moon
Well said Pat.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Well said Pat. >>
Come on Mitch - you're an attorney. Please provide us with the direct evidence from another post which equates anywhere near word for word with what Pat wrote.
Wondercoin
Let me ask you directly: Do you or do you not believe PCGS purposely overgrades coins based on who submitted them?
peacockcoins
And, if you don't, what is your argument here?
peacockcoins
Are there are a lot of "gift" grades from modern bulk submissions? Yes, there are. Anybody who's handled enough of these coins knows that. It's the same with NGC. But that is not a function of any kind of conspiracy, but rather a result of the numbers game. If you regularly throw out enough volume some of it is going to stick.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Mark: You know I retired from the practice of law many years ago. Feel free to do all the practicing of law you chose to do though. >>
Mitch, actually I had forgotten - sorry about that. And I choose not to practice either, thank you.
<< <i>Mark,
Let me ask you directly: Do you or do you not believe PCGS purposely overgrades coins based on who submitted them? >>
Pat, if I did, this probably wouldn't be the best time and place to say so.
<< <i>If you do then you'll have the last word with me as they'll be nothing for us to debate as I absolutely 100% disagree. And, if you don't, what is your argument here? >>
Pat, my "argument" here is that what you wrote (see below) in reply to my first post, did not seem to address the situation I presented in my post. Nor did it equate closely with what anyone else had said in the thread. It sounded (and I apologize if I am incorrect) as if you were putting words into someone's mouth and intent into their head.
<< <i>Opinion and conjecture are different than flat out "factual" statements Mark.
To boldly come out and either blatantly or slighly state PCGS grades coins based not on the coin but rather based on the submitter of the coin is, best case, rude and foolish, worse case, purposely dishonest in a vain attempt to forward the poster's personal agenda. Evidence should followed such a bold statement and when it isn't forthcoming... a sincere apology. >>
WH
Thanks Mark for the honest and upright, direct answer, I appreciate it! I knew there was a solid foundation as to why you are considered, by the vast majority, here as the top collector/dealer/poster on these forums for the last half of the decade.
peacockcoins
<< <i>
<< <i>Spend a little time cruising Teletrade and compare bulk submitted coins, (those beginning with 7 in the cert number), with non-bulk submitted coins. The answer will be clear.
Russ, NCNE >>
From your statement it can be construed that you believe that bulk submitters do get a break, or grading advantage, from PCGS ?
Can you prove this by showing us examples ?
As you have probably already read in Mr. Halls comments, i'm sure he would like to see you prove it also. >>
Russ is right. You are pathetic.
<< <i>
You just stated that major bulk submitters get a break in terms of grade at PCGS. I am at PCGS every day and know for a fact that the graders do not know whose coins they are grading. You have lied about our company. This is not acceptable. Prove your statement or leave the board.
David Hall >>
Exercise of the bully pulpit!
"Prove your statement or leave the board."
Would an apology or retraction suffice?
BTW David. We're still waiting for a definitive statement regarding the PCGS guaranty of authenticity ( please)!
<< <i>Russ is right. You are pathetic. >>
Pathetic because of what? Because i ask that someone prove what they are claiming by showing examples?
I am not a member of the "Kiss Russ' ass club". He's too rude and obnoxious. If he's going to make a statement, and claim it to be fact, then he should prove it.
Words are cheap, show real examples.
For Example:
No one is going to write a thousand times "bobs coins" on the flip in the processing area so the the graders see, and no grader is going to say "oh... bobs coins, I will give these a good grade" and.... "I hope the next two graders and the finalizer agree!!" HMMMM I guess I will bump these two ..no, one grade point... wait whats the deal with bob?
"hey wait (a grader stops to say) "these are bobs coins give them a better grade ok...." " did you get the memo?"
Another grader says " which bob? what grade should we give?" " does the finalizer know?"
This could never happen. It cannot happen.
Lets drop it.
Tbig
I believe HRH 100%. I also believe that PCGS tries very hard to grade all coins by the same standard, period.
Still, it must be obvious to a grader when he's working on a bulk submission. So the possibility exists that a grader will intentionally treat bulk submissions differently. Additionally, he may unintentionally grade bulk submissions differently, simply due to the nature of the work.
I also wonder if the people grading bulk submissions are the same people grading other submissions. If not, there's certainly a possibility that standards could diverge unintentionally.
Do I believe any of this is happening? I have no clue. I don't pay attention to the types of coins that go through bulk submissions, so I've seen no evidence one way or the other. But now seems like a good time for HRH to address some of these issues.
Edited to clarify that I am talking about "bulk submissions" - big groups of a single type of coin - and some other people are talking about non-bulk submissions by big customers of PCGS. These are very different issues. To be even more clear, I see no problems with respect to non-bulk submissions.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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