It seems the whole debate comes down to a matter of perceptions more than anything else.
After all, if I were to compare the grades "I" get submitting Kennedy's to what Russ might get....(and if I had a really big ego, and felt I was an expert grader)....I'd probably conclude that Russ get preferential treatment!! He's getting 68's, and cameo's, and all kinds of great grades! I get body bags, and 64's, and they're just sucking up my submission fees!!
(Disclaimer...I've never submitted any coins to PCGS, let alone modern crap.)
Anyway, to extend the discussion of "perceptions":
How about those "Meet and Greet", or "Grade and Run", or "Grope and Grade", or whatever they are called. (I don't remember). The special events meant for dealers and big time collectors?
I'm not saying anything WRONG is going on there...it's probably great publicity and business building. But the PERCEPTION can't be good when viewed by the "little people".
Pathetic because of what? Because i ask that someone prove what they are claiming by showing examples?
I am not a member of the "Kiss Russ' ass club". He's too rude and obnoxious. If he's going to make a statement, and claim it to be fact, then he should prove it. Words are cheap, show real examples. >>
What would you like me to prove, twit? That one can cruise Teletrade and get an answer to the question? I said:
<< <i>Spend a little time cruising Teletrade and compare bulk submitted coins, (those beginning with 7 in the cert number), with non-bulk submitted coins. The answer will be clear. >>
Tell us, oh one of de minimus intellect, exactly what "statement of fact" did I make? I simply suggested that he check Teletrade. Or, were you hoping that at this late stage nobody would actually read what I posted and not realize that - as usual - you were talking out your ass?
As the forum dimwit you really should stay over in the OF. You'll still be stupid, but it won't be quite as obvious.
Who cares? The only time it would matter is if you are blindly trusting the grade on the slab without looking at and evaluating the coin for yourself to be sure you agree with it. And if you're dumb enough to do that, you're probably getting burned even WITHOUT buying overgraded coins, so what's the difference?
If I sent business in by volume (hundreds of grading submissions as compared to a few here or there), I would hope to get a price break on the submission price per unit.
I wouldn't expect the major submitters getting a difference in grading standards. Getting it slabbed by PCGS seems to commands a better selling price over other Non-PCGS slabs from my observations.
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
Why bother looking at teletrade slabs starting with a 7- look at some dealers that have a bunch to sell that start with a 7- i did a little 'research' since this posted and have found 2 dealers that do bulk submissions- or maybe they bought them in bulk- but the numbers on the slabs and the pics of the coins- well if it is a 65- compared to a number of 65's that I have- I will send in my 63's in the old holders and hope for that 'bump'
Russ you are not obnoxious- but can be a little ill tempered at times.
i'm not knocking the house of David- but there is definite speculation on what does occur.
If anyone is interested in knowing what dealers I took my references from- PM me- I don't slander nor accuse- but looking is somewhat astonishing.
So out of 1,000 allegedly overgraded coins in PCGS slabs at a major show, several hundred of them will have consecutive or nearly so cert numbers indicating that they were from a single bulk submission?
Pathetic because of what? Because i ask that someone prove what they are claiming by showing examples?
I am not a member of the "Kiss Russ' ass club". He's too rude and obnoxious. If he's going to make a statement, and claim it to be fact, then he should prove it. Words are cheap, show real examples. >>
Camaroboy, you are pathetic because you make a lame attempt to get Russ banned by trying to lump him with Michael on this thread. Try to keep your trolling vendettas in the Open Forum.
<< <i>Spend a little time cruising Teletrade and compare bulk submitted coins, (those beginning with 7 in the cert number), with non-bulk submitted coins. The answer will be clear. >>
Well, looking at my collection, the two PCGS slabs with cert numbers beginning with 7 indicate that PCGS is ultra-concervative with bulk submissions. These two coins have virtually the highest eye-appeal of any in my collection.
<< <i>Camaroboy, you are pathetic because you make a lame attempt to get Russ banned by trying to lump him with Michael on this thread. Try to keep your trolling vendettas in the Open Forum. >>
Your perceptions are laughable. Where in the world do you get that i want Russypoo banned from what i asked?
I merely asked Russypoo to prove his assumptions by giving us examples. If you choose to take someones statements without question, that's your prerogative. I like to see examples that will prove or disprove someones claims.
You want to call me pathetic, that's fine. Your attack shows nothing more than an immature inability to see things past your own inflated ego.
<< <i>What would you like me to prove, twit? That one can cruise Teletrade and get an answer to the question? I said:
<< <i>Spend a little time cruising Teletrade and compare bulk submitted coins, (those beginning with 7 in the cert number), with non-bulk submitted coins. The answer will be clear. >>
Tell us, oh one of de minimus intellect, exactly what "statement of fact" did I make? I simply suggested that he check Teletrade. Or, were you hoping that at this late stage nobody would actually read what I posted and not realize that - as usual - you were talking out your ass?
As the forum dimwit you really should stay over in the OF. You'll still be stupid, but it won't be quite as obvious.
Russ, NCNE >>
Your "statement of fact", oh egotistical one, is in your assumption that everyone who would look at a slab with a 7 at the beginning of the cert number would automatically see, according to you, that PCGS is doing something unethical. What else could you possibly be referring to?
I doubt it. However, Heritage at least has on staff ex-grader(s) from certification services. That gives them a different advantage. They are more acutely aware of a coin that has a good shot at an upgrade or a cross to PCGS from another service, saving time and money in resubmissions. Even good dealers and experienced collectors roll the dice more often than have a certainty of conviction in those matters. It is also difficult to remove an optimistic bias when you own the coin. A TPGer tends to be more disciplined, in theory at least, when approaching grading a coin.
<< <i>Your "statement of fact", oh egotistical one, is in your assumption that everyone who would look at a slab with a 7 at the beginning of the cert number would automatically see, according to you, that PCGS is doing something unethical. >>
You know, peabrain, if you're going to fabricate you probably shouldn't do so under circumstances where it is so easy to verify your prevarication.
Now, I realize you won't be able to understand the above so, as I am a compulsively helpful person, I'll dumb it down for you: You're too stupid to realize that it's a bad idea to lie when the truth is so close at hand.
I said nothing about PCGS doing anything unethical. Perhaps, though, you believe this to be the case and have extrapolated that by your failed attempt to put words in my mouth?
<< <i>Your "statement of fact", oh egotistical one, is in your assumption that everyone who would look at a slab with a 7 at the beginning of the cert number would automatically see, according to you, that PCGS is doing something unethical. >>
You know, peabrain, if you're going to fabricate you probably shouldn't do so under circumstances where it is so easy to verify your prevarication.
Now, I realize you won't be able to understand the above so, as I am a compulsively helpful person, I'll dumb it down for you: You're too stupid to realize that it's a bad idea to lie when the truth is so close at hand.
I said nothing about PCGS doing anything unethical. Perhaps, though, you believe this to be the case and have extrapolated that by your failed attempt to put words in my mouth?
Russ, NCNE >>
Lie? where have i lied? I simply asked you to prove your statement with examples. If your statement has no implication of fact then what is it? An assumption?
<< <i>POLL: Will the pitiful loser, camaroboy, get the last word?
1. Yes, because his self-esteem is solely dependent on his doing so and he would shrivel and die if he didn't.
2. No, because he'll suddenly grow a brain and realize how silly he looks.
(Okay, I admit that second option will never happen, but it couldn't be a poll with only one response from which to choose).
Russ, NCNE >>
now your just making yourself look pathetic. ==========================================
Back to the original subject:
ModernDollarNut writes:
<< <i> I read often here that major submitters gain an advantage. For example, coins subbed through Heritage may gain a point.
Two questions: is this at all true? and if there is some truth, how do the graders know who the submitter is? Rob >>
Russ responds:
<< <i> Spend a little time cruising Teletrade and compare bulk submitted coins, (those beginning with 7 in the cert number), with non-bulk submitted coins. The answer will be clear. Russ, NCNE >>
Explain what it is your trying to say without being ambiguous. Do you believe PCGS is granting a higher grade than deserved on bulk submissions or not?
<< <i>Do you believe PCGS is granting a higher grade than deserved on bulk submissions or not? >>
I'm pretty sure that my very specific response to that question was posted in English. Perhaps I should re-write it at a first grade reading comprehension level just for you?
<< <i>Do you believe PCGS is granting a higher grade than deserved on bulk submissions or not? >>
I'm pretty sure that my very specific response to that question was posted in English. Perhaps I should re-write it at a first grade reading comprehension level just for you?
Russ, NCNE >>
posting an ambiguous, non-committal response hardly qualifys as "very specific".
<< <i>posting an ambiguous, non-committal response hardly qualifys as "very specific". >>
<< <i>Does PCGS purposely overgrade coins based on who submitted them? Nope. Can't happen that way since the graders don't know the name on the submission form.
Are there are a lot of "gift" grades from modern bulk submissions? Yes, there are. Anybody who's handled enough of these coins knows that. It's the same with NGC. But that is not a function of any kind of conspiracy, but rather a result of the numbers game. If you regularly throw out enough volume some of it is going to stick. >>
Only a moron with the IQ of a paperclip could call the above ambiguous.
<< <i>posting an ambiguous, non-committal response hardly qualifys as "very specific". >>
<< <i>Does PCGS purposely overgrade coins based on who submitted them? Nope. Can't happen that way since the graders don't know the name on the submission form.
Are there are a lot of "gift" grades from modern bulk submissions? Yes, there are. Anybody who's handled enough of these coins knows that. It's the same with NGC. But that is not a function of any kind of conspiracy, but rather a result of the numbers game. If you regularly throw out enough volume some of it is going to stick. >>
Only a moron with the IQ of a paperclip could call the above ambiguous.
Russ, NCNE >>
since you've obviously misunderstood what my questions and comments are about, let me quote your response again:
<< <i> Spend a little time cruising Teletrade and compare bulk submitted coins, (those beginning with 7 in the cert number), with non-bulk submitted coins. The answer will be clear.
Russ, NCNE >>
My problem is with that statement, nothing else. Explain your intended meaning in that post. That's all I've asked.
I know it's almost impossible for you to respond without being condescending and rude, but give it a try anyway.
Based on the amount of type coins that I have personally submitted over the past 15 years, along with close associates, I lean towards
YES...................
larger submitters and bigger players seem to have an advantage, regardless how slight. Mine only involves 1. I have 3 separate coins of mine recently that no one would touch with a 10 ft pole as upgrades.....except one. All 3 upgraded for major scores. Why did every other "cracker" and player I showed these to pass? Could be the expertise of the buyer...I don't know. And these were top graders every bit as good as those at PCGS/NGC. It just gives me an odd feeling. May not be true but it makes me think twice.
It was commonly talked about in 1989 that this was the case in at least one service. In fact I sold a $6000 seated half (via auction) to a major submitter/cracker in 1989 where he got the not-desired grade the first time around. Same grade it sold as..MS64. It was openly told to me that he complained....and then got the higher grade. He then doubled up on the price of the coin. Since I got this 2nd hand I cannot cororborate but the coin ended up MS65. Still, I know it's human nature and natural for big submitters to pick up the phone and talk to the grading company if they did not get fair treatment in their opinion. It has to have some effect. Some firms must spend Millions a year in grade fees, wouldn't you think it would have some effect?
<< <i>I guess my comment earlier must have some merit... >>
Nothing you've ever posted has had any merit. You're just too stupid to realize it.
However, in my continuing effort to edify the dullards of the world, I'll recap.
You asked:
<< <i>Do you believe PCGS is granting a higher grade than deserved on bulk submissions or not? >>
Of course, I had already specifically answered that question so either a) You weren't bright enough to actually read this thread before pulling your foot out of your ass and stuffing it in your mouth, or b) You read it and couldn't understand it because there were several words with more than one syllable.
I'd say it's a tossup between the two.
But, because I have great sympathy for idiots and 'tards like you, I'll repeat it one more time based on the remote possibility that if you read it very slowly you may comprehend at least a few of the words:
<< <i>Does PCGS purposely overgrade coins based on who submitted them? Nope. Can't happen that way since the graders don't know the name on the submission form.
Are there are a lot of "gift" grades from modern bulk submissions? Yes, there are. Anybody who's handled enough of these coins knows that. It's the same with NGC. But that is not a function of any kind of conspiracy, but rather a result of the numbers game. If you regularly throw out enough volume some of it is going to stick. >>
I've become bored of tossing you around like a rag doll, so you may now have the last word you so desperately crave.
If I am the President of a huge buisness that sells porkchops...............don't you think my freezer at home is packed chock full of the primest cuts ??
<< <i>And neither can you and I doubt I will either.
Jerry >>
I just got back from the New Haven, CT coin show (thank you Superstore!!) (had the pleasure of meeting Roadrunner). Read through all the posts on this thread, sometimes laughing out loud, as usual here, sometimes cringing, as usual here, but thankful that so many of you guys do "speak" your mind and thereby teach so well. Fats and Russ, special thanks!
Maybe this should be the last word? Rob
Modern dollars are like children - before you know it they'll be all grown up.....
From my personal experience sending individual coins of all types, and even bulk in to PCGS for grading .... and not being a MAJOR submitter by any means, I would say NO WAY . NO person or company gets a BREAK at PCGS. Graders might burn out after a few hours and mess up, but to suggest they "give a break" is ridiculous.
Mr Hall, you should have just answered the POST with " NO, and if I ever double check my graders and find they have cheated, they are gone"... that might have helped the NAYSAYERS...or YEAYsayers, here.
How many of you people actually have a business or a company ? How many of you raise kids ? How many of you have jobs working for someone else ? How many of you TRADE via these boards ? Are we not subject to Standards ? Am I to believe I cannot trust PCGS's ? hmmm
I am surprised that many of you think PCGS slips a FREEBIE upgrade to Major Submitters... I am quite shocked at a lot of you people on these boards suggesting that PCGS is not applying standards in their grading practices. To suggest the butcher gets the best cut of beef really shows the mentality of some board members. (okay, it was porkchops, but still)
I was taught at a very young age that those who accuse are usually the guilty ones. ( Just FYI)
There are STANDARDS at PCGS and to insinuate otherwise, as this thread does....well, I totally understand Mr Hall commenting.
If someone accuses me, I will defend myself, too. Any person with a sense of integrity would do the same.
Telling someone to back up their accusation or move along sounds like a good plan to me, Mr Feld, doesn't it to you ? You really think the boards would dry up with a few less people that throw out lies ?....That suggests there are a lot more liars here. I am not saying we are not entitled our opinion, or our freedom to openly criticize, but let us hold one another accountable for charges that we make which are not substantiated by FACT.
remember.... opinions are like . and everyone's got one !
First, I agree with Russ Does PCGS purposely overgrade coins based on who submitted them? Nope. Can't happen that way since the graders don't know the name on the submission form..
However, I have seen WAY more overgraded coins that came from bulk submissions than from regular ones (based on the 7 beggining number). I also do not think that this is a purposefull act at PCGS. I have always had the idea that one person looking at hundreds of the same coin, and having to pick out those with a minimmum grade, (as is often the case with bulk submissions) probably gets a little sloppy and a few random over graded coins come through. This is purely an observation. I have no proof.
The prior discussion reminds me of and old quote, "an intelligent man should never argue with an idiot. To the outside observer it is difficult to tell who is who".
If I am the President of a huge buisness that sells porkchops...............don't you think my freezer at home is packed chock full of the primest cuts ??
xxxxxxxxx
Duh!! Another meaningless post. People don't submit pork to big companies to be cut into pork chops. Coins are not purchased by PCGS to be graded; they are owned/custodially owned by the folks who submit them. I suppose that you have proof that PCGS offers to buy the best coins that pass thru the grading room.
How do coins enter the grading room? Is it one by one, individually, or by submission, regardless of the number of coins in the submission, or some other way?
Time sure flies when you don't know what you're doing... My Web Sites
Will Michael be able to produce evidence of coin favoritism at PCGS or will he leave the boards forever?
Will ss350camaro ever understand Russ's statement or will he succeed in having Russ banned? And what will happen when these two find out they are actually long lost twin brothers?
<< <i>Will Michael be able to produce evidence of coin favoritism at PCGS or will he leave the boards forever?
Will ss350camaro ever understand Russ's statement or will he succeed in having Russ banned? And what will happen when these two find out they are actually long lost twin brothers?
Find out in today’s episode of As the coin flips >>
"twins" ? not hardly, i am smarter and much better looking.
<< <i>You really think the boards would dry up with a few less people that throw out lies ?....That suggests there are a lot more liars here >>
TwoSides2aCoin, I have a problem with liars too. However, it is my opinion that you have equated some posters' perceptions and opinions with "lies" and without sufficient evidence.
I am glad Oliver Stone doesn't hang out on these boards with all the cryptic comments alluding to conspiracies we would have a movie that would make JFK look like a stroll in the Dealy Plaza. I guess the Teletrade comment will forever be a riddle wrapped in an enigma shrouded in mystery.
Did anyone answer the question if bulk submitted coins are seen by fewer graders? If so the natural variance would be higher.
It would also seem that since grading is subjective, there will be a few undergrades and a few overgrades every day.
Bulk submitter send in 1000 borderline coins. 500 little guys each send in 2
The Bulk submitters get them all back, the little guy just gets one or two, less likely to see a bump or a boot.
The Bulk guy then takes the mid and low grades and resubmits them, maybe a few more get the borderline bump.
At the lower submission cost, they can keep doing this until their borderline coins make the grade.
The little guy is not going to resubmit a coin over and over again at $18-25, unless the bump is very likely, and the price jump is worth it.
End of the story, bulk submitters seem to get better grades, but it is more due to persistance ( and the fact that they don't become emotionally attached to the coins)
A witty saying proves nothing- Voltaire (1694 - 1778)
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor
does the truth become error because nobody will see it. -Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)
Comments
After all, if I were to compare the grades "I" get submitting Kennedy's to what Russ might get....(and if I had a really big ego, and felt I was an expert grader)....I'd probably conclude that Russ get preferential treatment!! He's getting 68's, and cameo's, and all kinds of great grades! I get body bags, and 64's, and they're just sucking up my submission fees!!
(Disclaimer...I've never submitted any coins to PCGS, let alone modern crap.)
Anyway, to extend the discussion of "perceptions":
How about those "Meet and Greet", or "Grade and Run", or "Grope and Grade", or whatever they are called. (I don't remember). The special events meant for dealers and big time collectors?
I'm not saying anything WRONG is going on there...it's probably great publicity and business building. But the PERCEPTION can't be good when viewed by the "little people".
Just an observation.
<< <i>Coinhusker1 writes:
<< Russ is right. You are pathetic. >>
Pathetic because of what? Because i ask that someone prove what they are claiming by showing examples?
I am not a member of the "Kiss Russ' ass club". He's too rude and obnoxious. If he's going to make a statement, and claim it to be fact, then he should prove it. Words are cheap, show real examples. >>
What would you like me to prove, twit? That one can cruise Teletrade and get an answer to the question? I said:
<< <i>Spend a little time cruising Teletrade and compare bulk submitted coins, (those beginning with 7 in the cert number), with non-bulk submitted coins. The answer will be clear. >>
Tell us, oh one of de minimus intellect, exactly what "statement of fact" did I make? I simply suggested that he check Teletrade. Or, were you hoping that at this late stage nobody would actually read what I posted and not realize that - as usual - you were talking out your ass?
As the forum dimwit you really should stay over in the OF. You'll still be stupid, but it won't be quite as obvious.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>He's too rude and obnoxious. >>
I'm only rude to losers who earn it. You're "special".
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Do major submitters get a break at PCGS? >>
I would certainly hope so!!
If I sent business in by volume (hundreds of grading submissions as compared to a few here or there), I would hope to get a price break on the submission price per unit.
I wouldn't expect the major submitters getting a difference in grading standards. Getting it slabbed by PCGS seems to commands a better selling price over other Non-PCGS slabs from my observations.
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
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Russ you are not obnoxious- but can be a little ill tempered at times.
i'm not knocking the house of David- but there is definite speculation on what does occur.
If anyone is interested in knowing what dealers I took my references from- PM me- I don't slander nor accuse- but looking is somewhat astonishing.
i'm going to eat lunch now- will be back after 4.
<< <i>Coinhusker1 writes:
<< <i>Russ is right. You are pathetic. >>
Pathetic because of what? Because i ask that someone prove what they are claiming by showing examples?
I am not a member of the "Kiss Russ' ass club". He's too rude and obnoxious. If he's going to make a statement, and claim it to be fact, then he should prove it.
Words are cheap, show real examples. >>
Camaroboy, you are pathetic because you make a lame attempt to get Russ banned by trying to lump him with Michael on this thread. Try to keep your trolling vendettas in the Open Forum.
grading is about as bad as the grumbling among members about tight
grading. If a seasoned dealer who knows how to pregrade, submits a large
order, the odds are better in obtaining meaningful high grades on more coins
then us duffers submitting a handful of coins. Statistically, large numbers well selected,
will always be favored by statistics. When a TPG determines the value of an object, there
is no possible way for them to avoid the PERCEPTION of favortism. Such a believe enters into
the mystic of folklaw, made true by constant retelling, untill people begin to believe fable as fact.
Camelot
<< <i>Spend a little time cruising Teletrade and compare bulk submitted coins, (those beginning with 7 in the cert number), with non-bulk submitted coins. The answer will be clear. >>
Well, looking at my collection, the two PCGS slabs with cert numbers beginning with 7 indicate that PCGS is ultra-concervative with bulk submissions. These two coins have virtually the highest eye-appeal of any in my collection.
<< <i>the two PCGS slabs with cert numbers beginning with 7 indicate that PCGS is ultra-concervative with bulk submissions. >>
See, it's like I said. The answer is clear.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Camaroboy, you are pathetic because you make a lame attempt to get Russ banned by trying to lump him with Michael on this thread. Try to keep your trolling vendettas in the Open Forum. >>
Your perceptions are laughable. Where in the world do you get that i want Russypoo banned from what i asked?
I merely asked Russypoo to prove his assumptions by giving us examples. If you choose to take someones statements without question, that's your prerogative. I like to see examples that will prove or disprove someones claims.
You want to call me pathetic, that's fine. Your attack shows nothing more than an immature inability to see things past your own inflated ego.
<< <i>What would you like me to prove, twit? That one can cruise Teletrade and get an answer to the question? I said:
<< <i>Spend a little time cruising Teletrade and compare bulk submitted coins, (those beginning with 7 in the cert number), with non-bulk submitted coins. The answer will be clear. >>
Tell us, oh one of de minimus intellect, exactly what "statement of fact" did I make? I simply suggested that he check Teletrade. Or, were you hoping that at this late stage nobody would actually read what I posted and not realize that - as usual - you were talking out your ass?
As the forum dimwit you really should stay over in the OF. You'll still be stupid, but it won't be quite as obvious.
Russ, NCNE >>
Your "statement of fact", oh egotistical one, is in your assumption that everyone who would look at a slab with a 7 at the beginning of the cert number would automatically see, according to you, that PCGS is doing something unethical. What else could you possibly be referring to?
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<< <i>Your "statement of fact", oh egotistical one, is in your assumption that everyone who would look at a slab with a 7 at the beginning of the cert number would automatically see, according to you, that PCGS is doing something unethical. >>
You know, peabrain, if you're going to fabricate you probably shouldn't do so under circumstances where it is so easy to verify your prevarication.
Now, I realize you won't be able to understand the above so, as I am a compulsively helpful person, I'll dumb it down for you: You're too stupid to realize that it's a bad idea to lie when the truth is so close at hand.
I said nothing about PCGS doing anything unethical. Perhaps, though, you believe this to be the case and have extrapolated that by your failed attempt to put words in my mouth?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>Your "statement of fact", oh egotistical one, is in your assumption that everyone who would look at a slab with a 7 at the beginning of the cert number would automatically see, according to you, that PCGS is doing something unethical. >>
You know, peabrain, if you're going to fabricate you probably shouldn't do so under circumstances where it is so easy to verify your prevarication.
Now, I realize you won't be able to understand the above so, as I am a compulsively helpful person, I'll dumb it down for you: You're too stupid to realize that it's a bad idea to lie when the truth is so close at hand.
I said nothing about PCGS doing anything unethical. Perhaps, though, you believe this to be the case and have extrapolated that by your failed attempt to put words in my mouth?
Russ, NCNE >>
Lie? where have i lied? I simply asked you to prove your statement with examples. If your statement has no implication of fact then what is it?
An assumption?
1. Yes, because his self-esteem is solely dependent on his doing so and he would shrivel and die if he didn't.
2. No, because he'll suddenly grow a brain and realize how silly he looks.
(Okay, I admit that second option will never happen, but it couldn't be a poll with only one response from which to choose).
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>POLL: Will the pitiful loser, camaroboy, get the last word?
1. Yes, because his self-esteem is solely dependent on his doing so and he would shrivel and die if he didn't.
2. No, because he'll suddenly grow a brain and realize how silly he looks.
(Okay, I admit that second option will never happen, but it couldn't be a poll with only one response from which to choose).
Russ, NCNE >>
now your just making yourself look pathetic.
==========================================
Back to the original subject:
ModernDollarNut writes:
<< <i> I read often here that major submitters gain an advantage. For example, coins subbed through Heritage may gain a point.
Two questions: is this at all true? and if there is some truth, how do the graders know who the submitter is? Rob >>
Russ responds:
<< <i> Spend a little time cruising Teletrade and compare bulk submitted coins, (those beginning with 7 in the cert number), with non-bulk submitted coins. The answer will be clear.
Russ, NCNE >>
Explain what it is your trying to say without being ambiguous. Do you believe PCGS is granting a higher grade than deserved on bulk submissions or not?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Knew you'd have to have it. Now, post again quick since I just took it away from you!
Russ, NCNE >>
ahh, i see. So you just don't have the balls to actually answer the question.
figures
<< <i>Do you believe PCGS is granting a higher grade than deserved on bulk submissions or not? >>
I'm pretty sure that my very specific response to that question was posted in English. Perhaps I should re-write it at a first grade reading comprehension level just for you?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>Do you believe PCGS is granting a higher grade than deserved on bulk submissions or not? >>
I'm pretty sure that my very specific response to that question was posted in English. Perhaps I should re-write it at a first grade reading comprehension level just for you?
Russ, NCNE >>
posting an ambiguous, non-committal response hardly qualifys as "very specific".
<< <i>posting an ambiguous, non-committal response hardly qualifys as "very specific". >>
<< <i>Does PCGS purposely overgrade coins based on who submitted them? Nope. Can't happen that way since the graders don't know the name on the submission form.
Are there are a lot of "gift" grades from modern bulk submissions? Yes, there are. Anybody who's handled enough of these coins knows that. It's the same with NGC. But that is not a function of any kind of conspiracy, but rather a result of the numbers game. If you regularly throw out enough volume some of it is going to stick. >>
Only a moron with the IQ of a paperclip could call the above ambiguous.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>posting an ambiguous, non-committal response hardly qualifys as "very specific". >>
<< <i>Does PCGS purposely overgrade coins based on who submitted them? Nope. Can't happen that way since the graders don't know the name on the submission form.
Are there are a lot of "gift" grades from modern bulk submissions? Yes, there are. Anybody who's handled enough of these coins knows that. It's the same with NGC. But that is not a function of any kind of conspiracy, but rather a result of the numbers game. If you regularly throw out enough volume some of it is going to stick. >>
Only a moron with the IQ of a paperclip could call the above ambiguous.
Russ, NCNE >>
since you've obviously misunderstood what my questions and comments are about, let me quote your response again:
<< <i> Spend a little time cruising Teletrade and compare bulk submitted coins, (those beginning with 7 in the cert number), with non-bulk submitted coins. The answer will be clear.
Russ, NCNE >>
My problem is with that statement, nothing else. Explain your intended meaning in that post. That's all I've asked.
I know it's almost impossible for you to respond without being condescending and rude, but give it a try anyway.
(Quick, post again!)
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>You know, it suddenly dawned on me that you actually enjoy making a fool of yourself. Now I understand!
(Quick, post again!)
Russ, NCNE >>
I guess my comment earlier must have some merit................. sad
YES...................
larger submitters and bigger players seem to have an advantage, regardless how slight. Mine only involves 1. I have 3 separate coins of mine recently that no one would touch with a 10 ft pole as upgrades.....except one. All 3 upgraded for major scores. Why did every other "cracker" and player I showed these to pass? Could be the expertise of the buyer...I don't know. And these were top graders every bit as good as those at PCGS/NGC. It just gives me an odd feeling. May not be true but it makes me think twice.
It was commonly talked about in 1989 that this was the case in at least one service. In fact I sold a $6000 seated half (via auction) to a major submitter/cracker in 1989 where he got the not-desired grade the first time around. Same grade it sold as..MS64. It was openly told to me that he complained....and then got the higher grade. He then doubled up on the price of the coin. Since I got this 2nd hand I cannot cororborate but the coin ended up MS65. Still,
I know it's human nature and natural for big submitters to pick up the phone and talk to the grading company if they did not get fair treatment in their opinion. It has to have some effect. Some firms must spend Millions a year in grade fees, wouldn't you think it would have some effect?
roadrunner
<< <i>I guess my comment earlier must have some merit... >>
Nothing you've ever posted has had any merit. You're just too stupid to realize it.
However, in my continuing effort to edify the dullards of the world, I'll recap.
You asked:
<< <i>Do you believe PCGS is granting a higher grade than deserved on bulk submissions or not? >>
Of course, I had already specifically answered that question so either a) You weren't bright enough to actually read this thread before pulling your foot out of your ass and stuffing it in your mouth, or b) You read it and couldn't understand it because there were several words with more than one syllable.
I'd say it's a tossup between the two.
But, because I have great sympathy for idiots and 'tards like you, I'll repeat it one more time based on the remote possibility that if you read it very slowly you may comprehend at least a few of the words:
<< <i>Does PCGS purposely overgrade coins based on who submitted them? Nope. Can't happen that way since the graders don't know the name on the submission form.
Are there are a lot of "gift" grades from modern bulk submissions? Yes, there are. Anybody who's handled enough of these coins knows that. It's the same with NGC. But that is not a function of any kind of conspiracy, but rather a result of the numbers game. If you regularly throw out enough volume some of it is going to stick. >>
I've become bored of tossing you around like a rag doll, so you may now have the last word you so desperately crave.
Russ, NCN
Jerry
If I am the President of a huge buisness that sells porkchops...............don't you think my freezer at home is packed chock full of the primest cuts ??
didn't PCGS use machines at one time in their grading process?
US ARMY WITH THE BIG RED 1, MI NATL. GAURD--1982-1997
<< <i>And neither can you and I doubt I will either.
Jerry >>
I just got back from the New Haven, CT coin show (thank you Superstore!!) (had the pleasure of meeting Roadrunner). Read through all the posts on this thread, sometimes laughing out loud, as usual here, sometimes cringing, as usual here, but thankful that so many of you guys do "speak" your mind and thereby teach so well. Fats and Russ, special thanks!
Maybe this should be the last word? Rob
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Russ, NCN
Amen!
Someone should wrrite a book "Confessions of a coin grader".
Mr Hall, you should have just answered the POST with " NO, and if I ever double check my graders and find they have cheated, they are gone"... that might have helped the NAYSAYERS...or YEAYsayers, here.
How many of you people actually have a business or a company ?
How many of you raise kids ? How many of you have jobs working for someone else ?
How many of you TRADE via these boards ? Are we not subject to Standards ? Am I to believe I cannot trust PCGS's ? hmmm
I am surprised that many of you think PCGS slips a FREEBIE upgrade to Major Submitters...
I am quite shocked at a lot of you people on these boards suggesting that PCGS is not applying standards in their grading practices.
To suggest the butcher gets the best cut of beef really shows the mentality of some board members. (okay, it was porkchops, but still)
I was taught at a very young age that those who accuse are usually the guilty ones. ( Just FYI)
There are STANDARDS at PCGS and to insinuate otherwise, as this thread does....well, I totally understand Mr Hall commenting.
If someone accuses me, I will defend myself, too. Any person with a sense of integrity would do the same.
Telling someone to back up their accusation or move along sounds like a good plan to me, Mr Feld, doesn't it to you ?
You really think the boards would dry up with a few less people that throw out lies ?....That suggests there are a lot more liars here.
I am not saying we are not entitled our opinion, or our freedom to openly criticize, but let us hold one another accountable for charges that we make which are not substantiated by FACT.
remember.... opinions are like
However, I have seen WAY more overgraded coins that came from bulk submissions than from regular ones (based on the 7 beggining number). I also do not think that this is a purposefull act at PCGS. I have always had the idea that one person looking at hundreds of the same coin, and having to pick out those with a minimmum grade, (as is often the case with bulk submissions) probably gets a little sloppy and a few random over graded coins come through. This is purely an observation. I have no proof.
The prior discussion reminds me of and old quote, "an intelligent man should never argue with an idiot. To the outside observer it is difficult to tell who is who".
xxxxxxxxx
Duh!! Another meaningless post. People don't submit pork to big companies to be cut into pork chops. Coins are not purchased by PCGS to be graded; they are owned/custodially owned by the folks who submit them. I suppose that you have proof that PCGS offers to buy the best coins that pass thru the grading room.
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Will Michael be able to produce evidence of coin favoritism at PCGS or will he leave the boards forever?
Will ss350camaro ever understand Russ's statement or will he succeed in having Russ banned? And what will happen when these two find out they are actually long lost twin brothers?
Find out in today’s episode of As the coin flips
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<< <i>Will Michael be able to produce evidence of coin favoritism at PCGS or will he leave the boards forever?
Will ss350camaro ever understand Russ's statement or will he succeed in having Russ banned? And what will happen when these two find out they are actually long lost twin brothers?
Find out in today’s episode of As the coin flips >>
"twins" ? not hardly, i am smarter and much better looking.
(j/k)
<< <i>You really think the boards would dry up with a few less people that throw out lies ?....That suggests there are a lot more liars here >>
TwoSides2aCoin, I have a problem with liars too. However, it is my opinion that you have equated some posters' perceptions and opinions with "lies" and without sufficient evidence.
It would also seem that since grading is subjective, there will be a few undergrades and a few overgrades every day.
Bulk submitter send in 1000 borderline coins.
500 little guys each send in 2
The Bulk submitters get them all back, the little guy just gets one or two, less likely to see a bump or a boot.
The Bulk guy then takes the mid and low grades and resubmits them, maybe a few more get the borderline bump.
At the lower submission cost, they can keep doing this until their borderline coins make the grade.
The little guy is not going to resubmit a coin over and over again at $18-25, unless the bump is very likely, and the price jump is worth it.
End of the story, bulk submitters seem to get better grades, but it is more due to persistance ( and the fact that they don't become emotionally attached to the coins)
A witty saying proves nothing- Voltaire (1694 - 1778)
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor
does the truth become error because nobody will see it. -Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)
bulk batch of 100 IKES which represented a years worth of searching for gems.
He was flabbergasted to get zero MS65 & better grades.
Subsequently the best coins of the lot were sent to a competitor and some graded MS66.
It comes down to this: "On any given Sunday,..."
If you have a large bulk order in on a "bad" day at the grading service, LOOK OUT!
But anyone that has submitted lots of different orders has had orders with unexpected gifts!
Unfortunately, the luck of the draw has a very real effect on the grades one receives.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
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