Billy Wagner Hall of Fame?

orioles93 · August 13, 2013 4:40PM

My question for everyone is, will Billy Wagner make the Hall of Fame? He had 1 season with an ERA over 2.85 and it was an injury season that he only pitched in 28 games. He was a great closer during the late 90s and 2000s. He was a 7 time All Star. He has 422 career saves, which ranks him at 5th all time. And he has way more strikeouts than innings pitched, with hardly any walks. Plus he gave up around 300 less hits than innings pitched. Looking for some opinions. I think he belongs in, as he was one of the best relief pitchers of all time.

Griffins · August 13, 2013 4:42PM

Not a prayer, sorry.

msassin · August 13, 2013 5:06PM

cardsfan73 · August 13, 2013 6:24PM

I would put Lee Smith in before Wagner. Just my opinion though.

jay0791 · August 13, 2013 9:36PM

not IMO

elronmckenzie · August 13, 2013 10:12PM

<< I would put Lee Smith in before Wagner. >>

Agreed! Also, Trevor Hoffman & Dan Quisenberry. I won't say he can't make the HOF, but it may take a combination of a lackluster crop of eligible candidates, steroid suspicions and luck.

BaltimoreYankee · August 13, 2013 10:12PM

No chance whatsover.

stown · August 13, 2013 11:03PM

I'm a huge Billy the Kid fan and he was a key contributor for the 'Stros success during the late '90s and early '00s. So I'm clearly biased in his favor but unfortunately, even I have to say he's not HOF worthy.

Sorry

Baez578 · August 13, 2013 11:10PM

He was a solid closer....but to make the HOF as a closer, you have to be special. Other than Rivera, I don't see another closer making the HOF anytime soon.

Dboneesq · August 13, 2013 11:56PM

To answer your question: NO!!!!!

vladguerrero · August 13, 2013 11:56PM

Highly underated player though.

grote15 · August 14, 2013 12:02AM

Likely won't even garner enough votes to stay on ballot for more than a year or two.

olb31 · August 14, 2013 12:32AM

How about John Franco?

mikeschmidt · August 14, 2013 4:24AM

Agreed -- I don't think he'll get sufficient votes to stay on the ballot.

I think I'd put Reardon above Wagner, and Reardon got booted from the ballot in 2000 after one try-

PSASAP · August 14, 2013 4:38AM

Coffee is for closers, but not HOF memberships.

sportscardtheory · August 14, 2013 5:00AM

<< I would put Lee Smith in before Wagner. Just my opinion though. >>

I would put Wagner in over Smith. He was MUCH more dominant throughout his career than Smith ever was. Wagner is a top-5 all-time relief pitcher.

3BoyzTrading · August 14, 2013 5:05AM

No.....Quisenberry?

digicat · August 14, 2013 5:07AM

Marinao Rivera has ruined it for all relief pitchers from here on out. Heck, Trevor Hoffman might not even be a lock anymore.

shagrotn77 · August 14, 2013 5:14AM

No.

PSASAP · August 14, 2013 5:17AM

The lack of respect that closers get is appalling. They come in at the most crucial point of every game, and are expected to shut the door on their opponent. There is no other position that has that burden of winning or losing the game.

hyperchipper09 · August 14, 2013 5:22AM

I was going to play contrarian(shocker) and say yes, he's a high grade version of the modern Closer, but, I'd put Smith, Quisenberry in before Wagner. And I'm not sure either of those 2 ever gets in, vote or VC wise.

sportscardtheory · August 14, 2013 5:36AM

I'd love to see a valid argument for Smith over Wagner. Lee should be in the HOF, but other than having only 56 more saves, it's not very close. Wagner was one of the most dominant PITCHERS in baseball history, let alone relievers.

And Quisenberry? Really? 244 saves? He was dominant for a 6 year span, but his career was pretty much over at 33. I don't see how that equates to HOF talk.

Tabe · August 14, 2013 5:37AM

<< The lack of respect that closers get is appalling. They come in at the most crucial point of every game >>

This isn't even remotely true. It was true back in the days of Fingers, Sutter, and Quisenberry but it sure isn't true now. Closers come in with nobody on base and are expected to pitch one inning. Billy Wagner, for example, inherited only 166 runners in his entire career - an average of 0.19 runners per appearance. 54 of those came early in Wagner's career when he wasn't formally the closer. In fact, if we eliminate his first 2 seasons and his MLB debut, we find that Wagner inherited .147 runners per outing, or about one every 7 games. If you're coming into games with nobody on and nobody out, that's hardly "the most crucial point" of the game, even if it is the 9th.

By contrast, in 1980, Dan Quisenberry inherited 89 runners in just 75 outings - an average of 1.19 runners per outing. Or approximately 6.26 times as many runners as Wagner inherited per outing for his entire career.

Tabe · August 14, 2013 5:38AM

Oh, to answer the original question:

No, Billy Wagner is not a HOF'er. And, like someone else already mentioned, I expect him to not even make it to a third ballot.

And John Franco? Franco has even less of a case than Wagner.

sportscardtheory · August 14, 2013 5:41AM

<< 
No, Billy Wagner is not a HOF'er. And, like someone else already mentioned, I expect him to not even make it to a third ballot.
>>

Care to place a wager?

hyperchipper09 · August 14, 2013 5:41AM

<< 

<< The lack of respect that closers get is appalling. They come in at the most crucial point of every game >>

This isn't even remotely true. It was true back in the days of Fingers, Sutter, and Quisenberry but it sure isn't true now. Closers come in with nobody on base and are expected to pitch one inning. Billy Wagner, for example, inherited only 166 runners in his entire career - an average of 0.19 runners per appearance. 54 of those came early in Wagner's career when he wasn't formally the closer. In fact, if we eliminate his first 2 seasons and his MLB debut, we find that Wagner inherited .147 runners per outing, or about one every 7 games. If you're coming into games with nobody on and nobody out, that's hardly "the most crucial point" of the game, even if it is the 9th.

By contrast, in 1980, Dan Quisenberry inherited 89 runners in just 75 outings - an average of 1.19 runners per outing. Or approximately 6.26 times as many runners as Wagner inherited per outing for his entire career. >>

Guys like Fingers, Quisenberry, Sutter etc also asked, in many cases, to get more than 3 outs. Modern closers are more like a specialized version of a specialist. The set up man does some heavy lifting as well.

Dboneesq · August 14, 2013 5:42AM

<< I would put Wagner in over Smith. He was MUCH more dominant throughout his career than Smith ever was. Wagner is a top-5 all-time relief pitcher. >>

Wagner was one of the best, but I think putting him in the top 5 is a bit high. It's debatable if he is even the best left handed reliever of all-time (Franco & Lyle).

One reliever that many will probably overlook, especially the under 50 group, is Hoyt Wilhelm. He was the first reliever elected to the HOF.

sportscardtheory · August 14, 2013 5:47AM

<< 

<< I would put Wagner in over Smith. He was MUCH more dominant throughout his career than Smith ever was. Wagner is a top-5 all-time relief pitcher. >>

Wagner was one of the best, but I think putting him in the top 5 is a bit high. It's debatable if he is even the best left handed reliever of all-time (Franco & Lyle).

One reliever that many will probably overlook, especially the under 50 group, is Hoyt Wilhelm. He was the first reliever selected to the HOF. >>

Wagner struck out more batters per-inning than any PITCHER in baseball history. He has the second best ERA of all relievers with at least 300 innings, second only to Mariano Rivera. He's 5th all-time in saves, even after retiring early after having a phenomenal season (1.43 ERA, 37 SAVES). He's the epitome of dominance at the relief pitcher position. Franco and most other relief pitchers can't hold his jock. Franco, especially, was TERRIBLE compared to Wagner.

grote15 · August 14, 2013 5:47AM

His career postseason ERA of over 10 is also abysmal.

grote15 · August 14, 2013 5:54AM

<< 

<< The lack of respect that closers get is appalling. They come in at the most crucial point of every game >>

This isn't even remotely true. It was true back in the days of Fingers, Sutter, and Quisenberry but it sure isn't true now. Closers come in with nobody on base and are expected to pitch one inning. Billy Wagner, for example, inherited only 166 runners in his entire career - an average of 0.19 runners per appearance. 54 of those came early in Wagner's career when he wasn't formally the closer. In fact, if we eliminate his first 2 seasons and his MLB debut, we find that Wagner inherited .147 runners per outing, or about one every 7 games. If you're coming into games with nobody on and nobody out, that's hardly "the most crucial point" of the game, even if it is the 9th.

By contrast, in 1980, Dan Quisenberry inherited 89 runners in just 75 outings - an average of 1.19 runners per outing. Or approximately 6.26 times as many runners as Wagner inherited per outing for his entire career. >>

This is the fundamental difference between relievers/closers in the modern era as opposed to guys like Fingers, Sutter and Quiz and Gossage, too, for that matter. Those guys came into high pressure situations with guys on base in 8th or even the 7th innings and were expected to finish the job. That is a world of difference and degree of difficulty compared to the guy who pitches 1 inning at most and comes into the game with no one on base. This is also why no other reliever but Rivera is getting into the HOF for the forseeable future, and that has almost as much to do with his postseason dominance as it does with his incredible regular season numbers over such a long career.

sportscardtheory · August 14, 2013 5:57AM

<< His career postseason ERA of over 10 is also abysmal. >>

If we based players' HOF worthiness on playoff stats, the HOF would be pretty sparse.

Mike Schmidt hit .236 with a .304 OBP in the postseason through 36 games. I don't see anyone using that against him.

grote15 · August 14, 2013 6:00AM

<< 

<< His career postseason ERA of over 10 is also abysmal. >>

If we based players' HOF worthiness on playoff stats, the HOF would be pretty sparse.

Mike Schmidt hit .236 with a .304 OBP in the postseason through 36 games. I don't see anyone using that against him. >>

I wouldn't hold that against him if he were HOF worthy, but he is not even close, so it's a moot point.

Baez578 · August 14, 2013 6:03AM

<< 

<< 

<< The lack of respect that closers get is appalling. They come in at the most crucial point of every game >>

This isn't even remotely true. It was true back in the days of Fingers, Sutter, and Quisenberry but it sure isn't true now. Closers come in with nobody on base and are expected to pitch one inning. Billy Wagner, for example, inherited only 166 runners in his entire career - an average of 0.19 runners per appearance. 54 of those came early in Wagner's career when he wasn't formally the closer. In fact, if we eliminate his first 2 seasons and his MLB debut, we find that Wagner inherited .147 runners per outing, or about one every 7 games. If you're coming into games with nobody on and nobody out, that's hardly "the most crucial point" of the game, even if it is the 9th.

By contrast, in 1980, Dan Quisenberry inherited 89 runners in just 75 outings - an average of 1.19 runners per outing. Or approximately 6.26 times as many runners as Wagner inherited per outing for his entire career. >>

This is the fundamental difference between relievers/closers in the modern era as opposed to guys like Fingers, Sutter and Quiz and Gossage, too, for that matter. Those guys came into high pressure situations with guys on base in 8th or even the 7th innings and were expected to finish the job. That is a world of difference and degree of difficulty compared to the guy who pitches 1 inning at most and comes into the game with no one on base. This is also why no other reliever but Rivera is getting into the HOF for the forseeable future, and that has almost as much to do with his postseason dominance as it does with his incredible regular season numbers over such a long career. >>

+1

Wagner never played in a WS which hurts his chances even more. Putting traditional stats aside, I'd rank Hoffman higher than Wagner.

sportscardtheory · August 14, 2013 6:08AM

<< 

<< 

<< His career postseason ERA of over 10 is also abysmal. >>

If we based players' HOF worthiness on playoff stats, the HOF would be pretty sparse.

Mike Schmidt hit .236 with a .304 OBP in the postseason through 36 games. I don't see anyone using that against him. >>

I wouldn't hold that against him if he were HOF worthy, but he is not even close, so it's a moot point. >>

Unless you believe that relief pitchers in general aren't worthy of HOF induction, I don't see how. Other than his "abysmal" playoff performance, how is he not one of the best relief pitchers of all-time? I say he's top-5, but at worst he's top-10. How is being top-10 at your position not considered Hall-worthy.

cardsfan73 · August 14, 2013 6:11AM

No way Wagner is more dominant than Lee Smith.

When Smith retired he was the ALL Time save leader... His first year on the ballot he was the All Time Save leader. Lee also earned a lot of multi inning saves early in his career with the Cubs, sometimes coming in as early as the 7th inning.

I'll take Lee over Wanger anytime.

sportscardtheory · August 14, 2013 6:18AM

<< No way Wagner is more dominant than Lee Smith.

When Smith retired he was the ALL Time save leader... His first year on the ballot he was the All Time Save leader. Lee also earned a lot of multi inning saves early in his career with the Cubs, sometimes coming in as early as the 7th inning.

I'll take Lee over Wanger anytime. >>

So because he was the all-time saves leader when he retired and pitched in a different era, he's better. That's nuts. I would take Wagner over Smith every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Best strikeout pitcher of ALL-TIME, second best relief pitcher ERA of ALL-TIME to Mariano Rivera, 5th ALL-TIME in saves. You can have Smith and his 2.98 ERA and 99 blown saves. I'll take the guy with the least amount of blown saves out of all pitchers with at least 400 saves, best K% EVER, second best ERA to Rivera, etc...

sportscardtheory · August 14, 2013 6:28AM

Postseason stats;

Lee Smith - 4 games, 5.1 innings, 0 wins, 2 losses, 3 saves, 8.44 ERA, 1.875 WHIP
Billy Wagner - 14 games, 11.2 innings, 1 win, 1 loss, 3 saves, 10.03 ERA, 1.971 WHIP

Let's at least be honest. Smith stunk in the postseason too. At least Wagner's teams got to the postseason more often.

mikeschmidt · August 14, 2013 6:55AM

<< 
Mike Schmidt hit .236 with a .304 OBP in the postseason through 36 games. I don't see anyone using that against him. >>

Well, perhaps it is because Mike Schmidt has a World Series MVP to his name, in the first year the Phillies ever won a World Series in franchise history.

sportscardtheory · August 14, 2013 6:58AM

<< 

<< 
Mike Schmidt hit .236 with a .304 OBP in the postseason through 36 games. I don't see anyone using that against him. >>

Well, perhaps it is because Mike Schmidt has a World Series MVP to his name, in the first year the Phillies ever won a World Series in franchise history. >>

Yeah, but he's from Ohio, so...

ToadMan · August 14, 2013 7:14AM

I'm surprised Trevor Hoffman isn't in this convo yet.
2.87 ERA, 601 Saves and less blown saves than Rivera.....

stown · August 14, 2013 7:15AM

Random side note: Billy was a highly rated starter in the minors but at the time, our rotation was solid. He deserved to be called up and since we didn't have a closer, they converted him into one and the rest is history. I'm extremely thankful that I had the opportunity to see him in action at least 100 times. When he came in, everyone expected a win. Yeah, he was that money and the fans loved it.

Anyhoo...

Unlike relivers of yesteryear, he was a 1-inning specialist and if you want to compare apples to apples, his true peer would be Rivera. Like it or not, that's the bar for this generation of closers. If you asked HOF voters who they would rather have, I'm pretty confident they would prefer Rivera at least 9 out of 10 times.

Again, I'm a *huge* fan and greatly appreciate your vocal support. He was definitely underrated but sadly, not HOF worthy.

sportscardtheory · August 14, 2013 7:21AM

<< Random side note: Billy was a highly rated starter in the minors but at the time, our rotation was solid. He deserved to be called up and since we didn't have a closer, they converted him into one and the rest is history. I'm extremely thankful that I had the opportunity to see him in action at least 100 times. When he came in, everyone expected a win. Yeah, he was that money and the fans loved it.

Anyhoo...

Unlike relivers of yesteryear, he was a 1-inning specialist and if you want to compare apples to apples, his true peer would be Rivera. Like it or not, that's the bar for this generation of closers. If you asked HOF voters who they would rather have, I'm pretty confident they would prefer Rivera at least 9 out of 10 times.

Again, I'm a *huge* fan and greatly appreciate your vocal support. He was definitely underrated but sadly, not HOF worthy. >>

Rivera is pretty much the only player that he can be compared to. If that's his company, I don't see how he can not be Hall-worthy in any way, shape or form. He might not make it, but he will be on the ballot for all 15 years if he doesn't.

lostdart58 · August 14, 2013 7:26AM

Hoffman will get in..........

Dboneesq · August 14, 2013 7:34AM

<< You can have Smith and his 99 blown saves. I'll take the guy with the least amount of blown saves out of all pitchers with at least 400 saves >>

Without knowing the situation when the reliever came into the ballgame (Inherited Runners, for one), I'm not so sure Blown Saves is a good indicator. Since you came up with this statistic, you may already know that the two career leaders in blown saves—Gossage (112) and Rollie Fingers (109)—were both inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame.

I'm not arguing that one is better than the other, as I think they are both great relievers.

Tabe · August 14, 2013 8:06AM

<< 

<< 
No, Billy Wagner is not a HOF'er. And, like someone else already mentioned, I expect him to not even make it to a third ballot.
>>

Care to place a wager? >>

Sure, I'm up for a wager. Gonna be awhile before we know the outcome though

He comes up for election in 2016, so we won't know 'til 2017 if he'll be on the ballot 3 times or not.

Tabe · August 14, 2013 8:07AM

<< How is being top-10 at your position not considered Hall-worthy. >>

Ask Edgar Martinez.

PSamp77 · August 14, 2013 8:12AM

Ive never heard of this guy so ill say No.

sportscardtheory · August 14, 2013 8:22AM

Billy Wagner all-time relief pitcher rankings (500+ innings)

LOB% - 1ST (probably THE most important stat for a reliever)
AVG - 1ST
K/9 - 1ST (also all-time for ALL pitchers)
K% - 1ST
ERA - 2ND
ERA- - 2ND
WHIP - 3RD
FIP- - 3RD
WAR - 4TH
FIP - 4TH
Saves - 5TH
Ks - 6TH
K/BB - 6TH

In no way a HOFer? Not top-5 or top-10 all-time? Give me a break.

grote15 · August 14, 2013 8:37AM

If this thread is any indication, he may actually garner 4% of the vote in his first year of eligibility..

PowderedH2O · August 14, 2013 8:43AM

For those of you that are married, how many of your wives recognize names like Nolan Ryan, Cal Ripken, and Greg Maddux? Now, throw in "Billy Wagner" and wait for that blank stare from about 99% of them. It is the Hall of FAME. If Billy Wagner was in street clothes and walked into a baseball card show, how many diehard baseball fans would recognize him? Not many I would bet. He was a fine pitcher, but he isn't even as big a star as Craig Biggio in my mind. There is no rush for the hall to recognize players that the fans don't even recognize.

sportscardtheory · August 14, 2013 8:43AM

<< If this thread is any indication, he may actually garner 4% of the vote in his first year of eligibility.. >>

That's because most here know more about baseball cards than baseball itself. Anyone who truly believes that Billy Wagner isn't one of the best relievers of all-time and isn't worthy of a HOF discussion is pretty much clueless about the actual sport of baseball.

Billy Wagner Hall of Fame?

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