<< <i>If this thread is any indication, he may actually garner 4% of the vote in his first year of eligibility.. >>
That's because most here know more about baseball cards than baseball itself. Anyone who truly believes that Billy Wagner isn't one of the best relievers of all-time and isn't worthy of a HOF discussion is pretty much clueless about the actual sport of baseball. >>
Billy ought to hire you as his public advocate, lol..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Unless you believe that relief pitchers in general aren't worthy of HOF induction, I don't see how. Other than his "abysmal" playoff performance, how is he not one of the best relief pitchers of all-time? I say he's top-5, but at worst he's top-10. How is being top-10 at your position not considered Hall-worthy. >>
In general, I for one do not believe relievers are HOF-worthy. Tim mentioned that comparing today's closers who usually enter the game in a low-pressure situation (nobody on and a 1-3 run cushion) do not necessarily compare with those relievers who often entered in the 7th or 8th inning to put out a fire and finished the game from there.
<< <i>Sure, I'm up for a wager. Gonna be awhile before we know the outcome though He comes up for election in 2016, so we won't know 'til 2017 if he'll be on the ballot 3 times or not. >>
I'll take that bet, too. God willing, we'll all be around then. My opinion is that there is no chance he remains on the ballot more than a few years, much less all 15 years of eligibility.
<< <i>For those of you that are married, how many of your wives recognize names like Nolan Ryan, Cal Ripken, and Greg Maddux? Now, throw in "Billy Wagner" and wait for that blank stare from about 99% of them. It is the Hall of FAME. >>
Heh. Not that whether or not our wives recognize a player's name or a player could walk into a card shop unmolested should be a barometer for HOF-worthiness, the point is somewhat valid. Don't get me (or anyone else) wrong - Wagner was a heckuva pitcher, but not good enough to merit much attention for enshrinement.
LOB% - 1ST (probably THE most important stat for a reliever) AVG - 1ST K/9 - 1ST (also all-time for ALL pitchers) K% - 1ST ERA - 2ND ERA- - 2ND WHIP - 3RD FIP- - 3RD WAR - 4TH FIP - 4TH Saves - 5TH Ks - 6TH K/BB - 6TH
In no way a HOFer? Not top-5 or top-10 all-time? Give me a break. >>
I love how everyone just ignores this. Figures. I haven't seen one good argument as to why Wagner shouldn't be at least talked about for the Hall and when pertinent info is posted, it gets ignored. So many heads buried under so much sand.
<< <i>Rollie Fingers and Bruce Sutter have lower career WAR than Wagner. Take them out!!! lol >>
So if we use your logic to an even more absurd extreme, we should take everyone out because they are lower then Babe Ruth! >>
Notice that that is not MY logic... but yours. I'm not the one who posted Mariano Rivera's WAR as a comparison to Wagner's as some sort of "See, Rivera is much better"... which NO one ever argued wasn't fact.
What did my post with a chart showing Mariano having a better WAR than Wagner have to do with Hall of Fame Worthiness? And how did that chart lead to it being MY logic that Fingers and Sutter should be taken out of the hall of fame. Sorry... admittedly, Snuffy is a little dumb... You will need to connect those dots for me!
Oh.. and if you can read my mind... What am I thinking right now??? (LOL)
Someone said it best earlier - Rivera has made it difficult for everyone because he's so far above everyone else. Hoffman makes it just because of the number of saves, but I don't hold him in high regard. If you put those two next to each other, it isn't even a close contest as to who I would take.
Rivera's stats, aside from saves, should go to show anyone that stats like K/9 isn't necessarily an indication of greatness. I personally feel none of the closer in recent memory should make it, other than Rivera.
<< <i>What did my post with a chart showing Mariano having a better WAR than Wagner have to do with Hall of Fame Worthiness? And how did that chart lead to it being MY logic that Fingers and Sutter should be taken out of the hall of fame. Sorry... admittedly, Snuffy is a little dumb... You will need to connect those dots for me!
Oh.. and if you can read my mind... What am I thinking right now??? (LOL) >>
I guess you thought I was serious about taking Fingers and Sutter out of the HOF? And I don't know why you posted that info. I guess you were EXPECTING us to read your mind? Cryptic posting is cryptic...
<< <i>My question for everyone is, will Billy Wagner make the Hall of Fame? >>
I was going to say definitely not, but sportscardtheory convinced me otherwise.
Now I am going to say definitely not, unless sportscardtheory kidnaps voter's relatives and/or pets and threatens them with bodily harm unless Wagner is elected.
LOB% - 1ST (probably THE most important stat for a reliever) AVG - 1ST K/9 - 1ST (also all-time for ALL pitchers) K% - 1ST ERA - 2ND ERA- - 2ND WHIP - 3RD FIP- - 3RD WAR - 4TH FIP - 4TH Saves - 5TH Ks - 6TH K/BB - 6TH
In no way a HOFer? Not top-5 or top-10 all-time? Give me a break. >>
I love how everyone just ignores this. Figures. I haven't seen one good argument as to why Wagner shouldn't be at least talked about for the Hall and when pertinent info is posted, it gets ignored. So many heads buried under so much sand. >>
<< <i>Yes, I can see how some people can view a post with statistics and feel it is cryptic. >>
The posted stats show that Rivera's career WAR is significantly higher than that of Wagner's. Is that the lone point of the posting of those stats, or was there something else you wanted to communicate?
<< <i>Does somebody have an 800 ct box of mint Wagner rookies collecting dust? >>
This why we can't have nice things. lol Baseball Hall of Fame discussions on baseball card forums are the "youtube comments" of discussion. You get a bunch of people who think that because Wagner has no hobby presence, he simply CAN'T be a HOFer and sound off about it without even presenting any facts to back up their opinions. You get "Mariano Rivera is better" or "Lee Smith has more saves" types of garbage. Objectivity in baseball discussion, where art thou?
<< <i>This why we can't have nice things. lol Baseball Hall of Fame discussions on baseball card forums are the "youtube comments" of discussion. You get a bunch of people who think that because Wagner has no hobby presence, he simply CAN'T be a HOFer and sound off about it without even presenting any facts to back up their opinions. You get "Mariano Rivera is better" or "Lee Smith has more saves" types of garbage. Objectivity in baseball discussion, where art thou? >>
I agree, if only people would post some statistics showing a baseline to be used as a comparison. That way people could objectively decide themselves whether a person is Hall of Fame worthy. Too bad no one does that!
Edit: Before people start reading my mind. Just because someone is below the baseline shown does not mean that are unworthy. <derp>
Remember that this is the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of WAR or the Hall of Stats.
Of the 5 relievers in the Hall of Fame, only 2 had overlapping seasons of dominance: Sutter and Gossage. And they're in at the exclusion of fantastic relievers from the same era like Quisenberry and Smith.
Rivera and his video game-like dominance is a lock. Hoffman is probably going to get in as well due to his being the first to 600 saves. When the writers send in their ballots, I just don't see Wagner making the cut.
<< <i>This why we can't have nice things. lol Baseball Hall of Fame discussions on baseball card forums are the "youtube comments" of discussion. You get a bunch of people who think that because Wagner has no hobby presence, he simply CAN'T be a HOFer and sound off about it without even presenting any facts to back up their opinions. You get "Mariano Rivera is better" or "Lee Smith has more saves" types of garbage. Objectivity in baseball discussion, where art thou? >>
I agree, if only people would post some statistics showing a baseline to be used as a comparison. That way people could objectively decide themselves whether a person is Hall of Fame worthy. Too bad no one does that!
Edit: Before people start reading my mind. Just because someone is below the baseline shown does not mean that are unworthy. <derp> >>
For the third time;
Billy Wagner all-time relief pitcher rankings (500+ innings)
LOB% - 1ST (probably THE most important stat for a reliever) AVG - 1ST K/9 - 1ST (also all-time for ALL pitchers) K% - 1ST ERA - 2ND ERA- - 2ND WHIP - 3RD FIP- - 3RD WAR - 4TH FIP - 4TH Saves - 5TH Ks - 6TH K/BB - 6TH
Just keep ignoring them though. I mean really, his cards aren't worth a damn and some dude's wife wouldn't recognize him, so... NO HALL FOR YOU!!!
SCT, this Wagner thing has you really firrd up, doesn't it, lol..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Most closers are failed starting pitchers right? Mariano Rivera is THE only closer from the past 20 years that deserves to get into the HOF. Nobody else. Modern closers are totally overrated.
<< <i>Remember that this is the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of WAR or the Hall of Stats. >>
I agree, but, there is a slight chance there could be some type of link between WAR and the chances someone is a HOF type caliber player. It certainly could be a good base line to start or include in an objective discussion.
<< <i>Remember that this is the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of WAR or the Hall of Stats. >>
I agree, but, there is a slight chance there could be some type of link between WAR and the chances someone is a HOF type caliber player. It certainly could be a good base line to start or include in an objective discussion. >>
So why ignore the fact that of all relief pitchers in baseball history with at least 500 innings pitched, Wagner is 4th in overall WAR. You seem to think WAR means something, but not when comparing positions? Why would Wagner be compared to any position other than relief pitcher.
SCT - maybe you are right ... Wagner DOES belong in the HOF!
STAY HEALTHY!
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>You seem to think WAR means something, but not when comparing positions? Why would Wagner be compared to any player other than a relief pitcher. >>
He should not be compared to other players. He should ONLY be compared to relief pitchers. It would be stupid to compare his statistics to Babe Ruth or even Tom Seaver. There is no correlation. Hold on... were you reading my mind again and making assumptions on what I think? I never said that Wagner does not belong in the Hall of Fame. I didn't even say that Mariano Rivera belongs in the Hall of Fame. I made NO opinions. I just displayed statistics like you did, except I made no commentary on how I 'feel' about them as far as Hall of Fame worthiness is concerned. <<derp>>
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>You seem to think WAR means something, but not when comparing positions? Why would Wagner be compared to any player other than a relief pitcher. >>
He should not be compared to other players. He should ONLY be compared to relief pitchers. It would be stupid to compare his statistics to Babe Ruth or even Tom Seaver. There is no correlation. Hold on... were you reading my mind again and making assumptions on what I think? I never said that Wagner does not belong in the Hall of Fame. I didn't even say that Mariano Rivera belongs in the Hall of Fame. I made NO opinions. I just displayed statistics like you did, except I made no commentary on how I 'feel' about them as far as Hall of Fame worthiness is concerned. <<derp>> >>
Okay. So why even post in the thread if you aren't going to actually join the conversation. You seem to have opinions on HOF voting and stats, and even went so far as to post Wagner's WAR, but you have no opinion on the subject at hand? lol Have fun...
<< <i>Okay. So why even post in the thread if you aren't going to actually join the conversation. >>
Oh THIS is a conversation? Sorry, I missed that! (LOL) With fantastical stats like these?
LOB% - 1ST (probably THE most important stat for a reliever) AVG - 1ST K/9 - 1ST (also all-time for ALL pitchers) K% - 1ST ERA - 2ND ERA- - 2ND WHIP - 3RD FIP- - 3RD WAR - 4TH FIP - 4TH Saves - 5TH Ks - 6TH K/BB - 6T
Wagner should 100% absolutely be in the Hall of Fame. He's 1st in K/9 for crying out loud! (not to mention all those other thingys up there) No doubt about it! HOFer! I am on your side!!! <<derp>>
<< <i>This why we can't have nice things. lol Baseball Hall of Fame discussions on baseball card forums are the "youtube comments" of discussion. You get a bunch of people who think that because Wagner has no hobby presence, he simply CAN'T be a HOFer and sound off about it without even presenting any facts to back up their opinions. You get "Mariano Rivera is better" or "Lee Smith has more saves" types of garbage. Objectivity in baseball discussion, where art thou? >>
How about you compare Billy Wagner to Curt Schilling objectively?
Do you really not know which pitcher did more to help their teams without someone feeding facts to you?
<< <i>This why we can't have nice things. lol Baseball Hall of Fame discussions on baseball card forums are the "youtube comments" of discussion. You get a bunch of people who think that because Wagner has no hobby presence, he simply CAN'T be a HOFer and sound off about it without even presenting any facts to back up their opinions. You get "Mariano Rivera is better" or "Lee Smith has more saves" types of garbage. Objectivity in baseball discussion, where art thou? >>
How about you compare Billy Wagner to Curt Schilling objectively?
Do you really not know which pitcher did more to help their teams without someone feeding facts to you? >>
I have no idea what you are talking about. All I have done in this thread is post stats, which are facts. He's CLEARLY one of the best relief pitchers of all-time and statistically speaking, he should be ranked somewhere in the top-5, to top-10 on a bad day. You simply can not dispute that in any valid way. You are free to try. If you want to argue that relief pitchers shouldn't be in the Hall, that's an entirely different argument.
<< <i>I have no idea what you are talking about. All I have done in this thread is post stats, which are facts. He's CLEARLY one of the best relief pitchers of all-time and statistically speaking, he should be ranked somewhere in the top-5, to top-10 on a bad day. You simply can not dispute that in any valid way. You are free to try. If you want to argue that relief pitchers shouldn't be in the Hall, that's an entirely different argument. >>
I am talking about the fact that there are pitchers better than Billy Wagner not in the Hall-of-Fame.
Relief pitchers should be in the Hall-of-Fame if they meet the standards. Being below other players who were passed over is a pretty clear indication he is below the standards
<< <i>I have no idea what you are talking about. All I have done in this thread is post stats, which are facts. He's CLEARLY one of the best relief pitchers of all-time and statistically speaking, he should be ranked somewhere in the top-5, to top-10 on a bad day. You simply can not dispute that in any valid way. You are free to try. If you want to argue that relief pitchers shouldn't be in the Hall, that's an entirely different argument. >>
I am talking about the fact that there are pitchers better than Billy Wagner not in the Hall-of-Fame.
Relief pitchers should be in the Hall-of-Fame if they meet the standards. Being below other players who were passed over is a pretty clear indication he is below the standards >>
You are certainly free to say which relief pitchers that are not in the HOF you think are better than Wagner. That's usually the better way to have a discussion over being a douche for no apparent reason and not saying anything pertinent to your apparent opinion that you are keeping to yourself.
<< <i> You are certainly free to say which relief pitchers that are not in the HOF you think are better than Wagner. That's usually the better way to have a discussion over being a douche for no apparent reason. >>
I could easily name at least 30 pitchers better than Wagner. Maybe only Wilbur Wood and Dan Quisenberry as the only relievers. (Firpo Marberry and Ellis Kinder had higher WAR if you value that). But it is the Baseball Hall-of-Fame -- baseball players should be compared to other baseball players. When Harold Baines was first on the ballot there were no DHs better. He was left out along with Edgar Martinez. It is very clear the Hall-of-Fame does not discriminate based on those types of labels. Now please stop being a douchebag
<< <i> You are certainly free to say which relief pitchers that are not in the HOF you think are better than Wagner. That's usually the better way to have a discussion over being a douche for no apparent reason. >>
I could easily name at least 30 pitchers better than Wagner. Maybe only Wilbur Wood and Dan Quisenberry as the only relievers. (Firpo Marberry and Ellis Kinder had higher WAR if you value that). But it is the Baseball Hall-of-Fame -- baseball players should be compared to other baseball players. When Harold Baines was first on the ballot there were no DHs better. He was left out along with Edgar Martinez. It is very clear the Hall-of-Fame does not discriminate based on those types of labels. Now please stop being a douchebag >>
You clearly know nothing about Billy Wagner and have completely ignored the stats I posted that show how off-the-charts great he was, especially over the guys you mentioned.
Nice "I am rubber, you are glue" routine, BTW. Very mature.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>If this thread is any indication, he may actually garner 4% of the vote in his first year of eligibility.. >>
That's because most here know more about baseball cards than baseball itself. Anyone who truly believes that Billy Wagner isn't one of the best relievers of all-time and isn't worthy of a HOF discussion is pretty much clueless about the actual sport of baseball. >>
Billy ought to hire you as his public advocate, lol..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Unless you believe that relief pitchers in general aren't worthy of HOF induction, I don't see how. Other than his "abysmal" playoff performance, how is he not one of the best relief pitchers of all-time? I say he's top-5, but at worst he's top-10. How is being top-10 at your position not considered Hall-worthy. >>
In general, I for one do not believe relievers are HOF-worthy. Tim mentioned that comparing today's closers who usually enter the game in a low-pressure situation (nobody on and a 1-3 run cushion) do not necessarily compare with those relievers who often entered in the 7th or 8th inning to put out a fire and finished the game from there.
<< <i>Sure, I'm up for a wager. Gonna be awhile before we know the outcome though He comes up for election in 2016, so we won't know 'til 2017 if he'll be on the ballot 3 times or not. >>
I'll take that bet, too. God willing, we'll all be around then. My opinion is that there is no chance he remains on the ballot more than a few years, much less all 15 years of eligibility.
<< <i>For those of you that are married, how many of your wives recognize names like Nolan Ryan, Cal Ripken, and Greg Maddux? Now, throw in "Billy Wagner" and wait for that blank stare from about 99% of them. It is the Hall of FAME. >>
Heh. Not that whether or not our wives recognize a player's name or a player could walk into a card shop unmolested should be a barometer for HOF-worthiness, the point is somewhat valid. Don't get me (or anyone else) wrong - Wagner was a heckuva pitcher, but not good enough to merit much attention for enshrinement.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
Edit - So it's clear, enshrinement within three years automatically makes me the winner of the wager.
<< <i>If this thread is any indication, he may actually garner 4% of the vote in his first year of eligibility.. >>
LOL
Wasn't Rob Dibble's K/9 larger?
<< <i>Billy Wagner all-time relief pitcher rankings (500+ innings)
LOB% - 1ST (probably THE most important stat for a reliever)
AVG - 1ST
K/9 - 1ST (also all-time for ALL pitchers)
K% - 1ST
ERA - 2ND
ERA- - 2ND
WHIP - 3RD
FIP- - 3RD
WAR - 4TH
FIP - 4TH
Saves - 5TH
Ks - 6TH
K/BB - 6TH
In no way a HOFer? Not top-5 or top-10 all-time? Give me a break. >>
I love how everyone just ignores this. Figures. I haven't seen one good argument as to why Wagner shouldn't be at least talked about for the Hall and when pertinent info is posted, it gets ignored. So many heads buried under so much sand.
<< <i>Rollie Fingers and Bruce Sutter have lower career WAR than Wagner. Take them out!!! lol >>
So if we use your logic to an even more absurd extreme, we should take everyone out because they are lower then Babe Ruth!
<< <i>
<< <i>Rollie Fingers and Bruce Sutter have lower career WAR than Wagner. Take them out!!! lol >>
So if we use your logic to an even more absurd extreme, we should take everyone out because they are lower then Babe Ruth! >>
Notice that that is not MY logic... but yours. I'm not the one who posted Mariano Rivera's WAR as a comparison to Wagner's as some sort of "See, Rivera is much better"... which NO one ever argued wasn't fact.
Wow. lol
Oh.. and if you can read my mind... What am I thinking right now??? (LOL)
Rivera's stats, aside from saves, should go to show anyone that stats like K/9 isn't necessarily an indication of greatness. I personally feel none of the closer in recent memory should make it, other than Rivera.
<< <i>What did my post with a chart showing Mariano having a better WAR than Wagner have to do with Hall of Fame Worthiness? And how did that chart lead to it being MY logic that Fingers and Sutter should be taken out of the hall of fame. Sorry... admittedly, Snuffy is a little dumb... You will need to connect those dots for me!
Oh.. and if you can read my mind... What am I thinking right now??? (LOL) >>
I guess you thought I was serious about taking Fingers and Sutter out of the HOF? And I don't know why you posted that info. I guess you were EXPECTING us to read your mind? Cryptic posting is cryptic...
<< <i>My question for everyone is, will Billy Wagner make the Hall of Fame? >>
I was going to say definitely not, but sportscardtheory convinced me otherwise.
Now I am going to say definitely not, unless sportscardtheory kidnaps voter's relatives and/or pets and threatens them with bodily harm unless Wagner is elected.
Snorto~
<< <i>Cryptic posting is cryptic... >>
Yes, I can see how some people can view a post with statistics and feel it is cryptic.
<< <i>
<< <i>Billy Wagner all-time relief pitcher rankings (500+ innings)
LOB% - 1ST (probably THE most important stat for a reliever)
AVG - 1ST
K/9 - 1ST (also all-time for ALL pitchers)
K% - 1ST
ERA - 2ND
ERA- - 2ND
WHIP - 3RD
FIP- - 3RD
WAR - 4TH
FIP - 4TH
Saves - 5TH
Ks - 6TH
K/BB - 6TH
In no way a HOFer? Not top-5 or top-10 all-time? Give me a break. >>
I love how everyone just ignores this. Figures. I haven't seen one good argument as to why Wagner shouldn't be at least talked about for the Hall and when pertinent info is posted, it gets ignored. So many heads buried under so much sand. >>
Oh hey there Billy!
<< <i>derp >>
Mariano Rivera has a higher WAR than Billy Wagner. You win the internets.
<< <i>Yes, I can see how some people can view a post with statistics and feel it is cryptic. >>
The posted stats show that Rivera's career WAR is significantly higher than that of Wagner's. Is that the lone point of the posting of those stats, or was there something else you wanted to communicate?
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>Does somebody have an 800 ct box of mint Wagner rookies collecting dust?
I think I know someone who does!
<< <i>Does somebody have an 800 ct box of mint Wagner rookies collecting dust?
This why we can't have nice things. lol Baseball Hall of Fame discussions on baseball card forums are the "youtube comments" of discussion. You get a bunch of people who think that because Wagner has no hobby presence, he simply CAN'T be a HOFer and sound off about it without even presenting any facts to back up their opinions. You get "Mariano Rivera is better" or "Lee Smith has more saves" types of garbage. Objectivity in baseball discussion, where art thou?
<< <i>This why we can't have nice things. lol Baseball Hall of Fame discussions on baseball card forums are the "youtube comments" of discussion. You get a bunch of people who think that because Wagner has no hobby presence, he simply CAN'T be a HOFer and sound off about it without even presenting any facts to back up their opinions. You get "Mariano Rivera is better" or "Lee Smith has more saves" types of garbage. Objectivity in baseball discussion, where art thou? >>
I agree, if only people would post some statistics showing a baseline to be used as a comparison. That way people could objectively decide themselves whether a person is Hall of Fame worthy. Too bad no one does that!
Edit: Before people start reading my mind. Just because someone is below the baseline shown does not mean that are unworthy. <derp>
Of the 5 relievers in the Hall of Fame, only 2 had overlapping seasons of dominance: Sutter and Gossage. And they're in at the exclusion of fantastic relievers from the same era like Quisenberry and Smith.
Rivera and his video game-like dominance is a lock. Hoffman is probably going to get in as well due to his being the first to 600 saves. When the writers send in their ballots, I just don't see Wagner making the cut.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>
<< <i>This why we can't have nice things. lol Baseball Hall of Fame discussions on baseball card forums are the "youtube comments" of discussion. You get a bunch of people who think that because Wagner has no hobby presence, he simply CAN'T be a HOFer and sound off about it without even presenting any facts to back up their opinions. You get "Mariano Rivera is better" or "Lee Smith has more saves" types of garbage. Objectivity in baseball discussion, where art thou? >>
I agree, if only people would post some statistics showing a baseline to be used as a comparison. That way people could objectively decide themselves whether a person is Hall of Fame worthy. Too bad no one does that!
Edit: Before people start reading my mind. Just because someone is below the baseline shown does not mean that are unworthy. <derp> >>
For the third time;
Billy Wagner all-time relief pitcher rankings (500+ innings)
LOB% - 1ST (probably THE most important stat for a reliever)
AVG - 1ST
K/9 - 1ST (also all-time for ALL pitchers)
K% - 1ST
ERA - 2ND
ERA- - 2ND
WHIP - 3RD
FIP- - 3RD
WAR - 4TH
FIP - 4TH
Saves - 5TH
Ks - 6TH
K/BB - 6TH
Just keep ignoring them though. I mean really, his cards aren't worth a damn and some dude's wife wouldn't recognize him, so... NO HALL FOR YOU!!!
<< <i>Objectivity in baseball discussion, where art thou? >>
I think I saw it hiding over in the Sports Talk section.
Snorto~
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Most closers are failed starting pitchers right? Mariano Rivera is THE only closer from the past 20 years that deserves to get into the HOF. Nobody else. Modern closers are totally overrated.
<< <i>Remember that this is the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of WAR or the Hall of Stats. >>
I agree, but, there is a slight chance there could be some type of link between WAR and the chances someone is a HOF type caliber player. It certainly could be a good base line to start or include in an objective discussion.
Too bad there isn't a sports talk forum here
------
stupid print dots
<< <i>
<< <i>Remember that this is the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of WAR or the Hall of Stats. >>
I agree, but, there is a slight chance there could be some type of link between WAR and the chances someone is a HOF type caliber player. It certainly could be a good base line to start or include in an objective discussion. >>
So why ignore the fact that of all relief pitchers in baseball history with at least 500 innings pitched, Wagner is 4th in overall WAR. You seem to think WAR means something, but not when comparing positions? Why would Wagner be compared to any position other than relief pitcher.
<< <i>SCT, this Wagner thing has you really firrd up, doesn't it, lol.. >>
It may seem that way to some...
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>You seem to think WAR means something, but not when comparing positions? Why would Wagner be compared to any player other than a relief pitcher. >>
He should not be compared to other players. He should ONLY be compared to relief pitchers. It would be stupid to compare his statistics to Babe Ruth or even Tom Seaver. There is no correlation. Hold on... were you reading my mind again and making assumptions on what I think? I never said that Wagner does not belong in the Hall of Fame. I didn't even say that Mariano Rivera belongs in the Hall of Fame. I made NO opinions. I just displayed statistics like you did, except I made no commentary on how I 'feel' about them as far as Hall of Fame worthiness is concerned. <<derp>>
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>Here ya go Snuff:
LOL - Poor Bird!
<< <i>
<< <i>You seem to think WAR means something, but not when comparing positions? Why would Wagner be compared to any player other than a relief pitcher. >>
He should not be compared to other players. He should ONLY be compared to relief pitchers. It would be stupid to compare his statistics to Babe Ruth or even Tom Seaver. There is no correlation. Hold on... were you reading my mind again and making assumptions on what I think? I never said that Wagner does not belong in the Hall of Fame. I didn't even say that Mariano Rivera belongs in the Hall of Fame. I made NO opinions. I just displayed statistics like you did, except I made no commentary on how I 'feel' about them as far as Hall of Fame worthiness is concerned. <<derp>> >>
Okay. So why even post in the thread if you aren't going to actually join the conversation. You seem to have opinions on HOF voting and stats, and even went so far as to post Wagner's WAR, but you have no opinion on the subject at hand? lol Have fun...
<< <i>Okay. So why even post in the thread if you aren't going to actually join the conversation. >>
Oh THIS is a conversation? Sorry, I missed that! (LOL) With fantastical stats like these?
LOB% - 1ST (probably THE most important stat for a reliever)
AVG - 1ST
K/9 - 1ST (also all-time for ALL pitchers)
K% - 1ST
ERA - 2ND
ERA- - 2ND
WHIP - 3RD
FIP- - 3RD
WAR - 4TH
FIP - 4TH
Saves - 5TH
Ks - 6TH
K/BB - 6T
Wagner should 100% absolutely be in the Hall of Fame. He's 1st in K/9 for crying out loud! (not to mention all those other thingys up there) No doubt about it! HOFer! I am on your side!!! <<derp>>
<< <i>This why we can't have nice things. lol Baseball Hall of Fame discussions on baseball card forums are the "youtube comments" of discussion. You get a bunch of people who think that because Wagner has no hobby presence, he simply CAN'T be a HOFer and sound off about it without even presenting any facts to back up their opinions. You get "Mariano Rivera is better" or "Lee Smith has more saves" types of garbage. Objectivity in baseball discussion, where art thou? >>
How about you compare Billy Wagner to Curt Schilling objectively?
Do you really not know which pitcher did more to help their teams without someone feeding facts to you?
<< <i>
<< <i>This why we can't have nice things. lol Baseball Hall of Fame discussions on baseball card forums are the "youtube comments" of discussion. You get a bunch of people who think that because Wagner has no hobby presence, he simply CAN'T be a HOFer and sound off about it without even presenting any facts to back up their opinions. You get "Mariano Rivera is better" or "Lee Smith has more saves" types of garbage. Objectivity in baseball discussion, where art thou? >>
How about you compare Billy Wagner to Curt Schilling objectively?
Do you really not know which pitcher did more to help their teams without someone feeding facts to you? >>
I have no idea what you are talking about. All I have done in this thread is post stats, which are facts. He's CLEARLY one of the best relief pitchers of all-time and statistically speaking, he should be ranked somewhere in the top-5, to top-10 on a bad day. You simply can not dispute that in any valid way. You are free to try. If you want to argue that relief pitchers shouldn't be in the Hall, that's an entirely different argument.
<< <i>Funny guy. : | >>
It may seem that way to some..
<< <i>I have no idea what you are talking about. All I have done in this thread is post stats, which are facts. He's CLEARLY one of the best relief pitchers of all-time and statistically speaking, he should be ranked somewhere in the top-5, to top-10 on a bad day. You simply can not dispute that in any valid way. You are free to try. If you want to argue that relief pitchers shouldn't be in the Hall, that's an entirely different argument. >>
I am talking about the fact that there are pitchers better than Billy Wagner not in the Hall-of-Fame.
Relief pitchers should be in the Hall-of-Fame if they meet the standards. Being below other players who were passed over is a pretty clear indication he is below the standards
<< <i>
<< <i>I have no idea what you are talking about. All I have done in this thread is post stats, which are facts. He's CLEARLY one of the best relief pitchers of all-time and statistically speaking, he should be ranked somewhere in the top-5, to top-10 on a bad day. You simply can not dispute that in any valid way. You are free to try. If you want to argue that relief pitchers shouldn't be in the Hall, that's an entirely different argument. >>
I am talking about the fact that there are pitchers better than Billy Wagner not in the Hall-of-Fame.
Relief pitchers should be in the Hall-of-Fame if they meet the standards. Being below other players who were passed over is a pretty clear indication he is below the standards >>
You are certainly free to say which relief pitchers that are not in the HOF you think are better than Wagner. That's usually the better way to have a discussion over being a douche for no apparent reason and not saying anything pertinent to your apparent opinion that you are keeping to yourself.
<< <i>
You are certainly free to say which relief pitchers that are not in the HOF you think are better than Wagner. That's usually the better way to have a discussion over being a douche for no apparent reason. >>
I could easily name at least 30 pitchers better than Wagner. Maybe only Wilbur Wood and Dan Quisenberry as the only relievers. (Firpo Marberry and Ellis Kinder had higher WAR if you value that). But it is the Baseball Hall-of-Fame -- baseball players should be compared to other baseball players. When Harold Baines was first on the ballot there were no DHs better. He was left out along with Edgar Martinez. It is very clear the Hall-of-Fame does not discriminate based on those types of labels. Now please stop being a douchebag
<< <i>
<< <i>
You are certainly free to say which relief pitchers that are not in the HOF you think are better than Wagner. That's usually the better way to have a discussion over being a douche for no apparent reason. >>
I could easily name at least 30 pitchers better than Wagner. Maybe only Wilbur Wood and Dan Quisenberry as the only relievers. (Firpo Marberry and Ellis Kinder had higher WAR if you value that). But it is the Baseball Hall-of-Fame -- baseball players should be compared to other baseball players. When Harold Baines was first on the ballot there were no DHs better. He was left out along with Edgar Martinez. It is very clear the Hall-of-Fame does not discriminate based on those types of labels. Now please stop being a douchebag >>
You clearly know nothing about Billy Wagner and have completely ignored the stats I posted that show how off-the-charts great he was, especially over the guys you mentioned.
Nice "I am rubber, you are glue" routine, BTW. Very mature.
Billy Wagner all-time relief pitcher rankings (500+ innings)
LOB% - 1ST (probably THE most important stat for a reliever)
AVG - 1ST
K/9 - 1ST (also all-time for ALL pitchers)
K% - 1ST
ERA - 2ND
ERA- - 2ND
WHIP - 3RD
FIP- - 3RD
WAR - 4TH
FIP - 4TH
Saves - 5TH
Ks - 6TH
K/BB - 6TH
<< <i>I think I'd put Reardon above Wagner, and Reardon got booted from the ballot in 2000 after one try- >>
Reardon's Story..
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2568869