PCGS Secure + vs CAC coins
STEWARTBLAYNUMIS
Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭
If you have auction experience buying or selling coins in SECURE + holders as well as CAC coins, which product do you believe
will bring you more money in auction?
What advise do the auction companies recommend ?
I am a novice and would like to learn
Stewart Blay
0
Comments
Step #1 Send all your coins in for PCGS secure servce.
Step #2 After they are all regraded, send them to CAC to make sure PCGS got it correct.
Step #3 Any new coins bought, should go through the same procedure.
Then you're covered all the way around.
That is a good one!
To date I have four CAC approved and two Secure Plus coins in my collection. The markers came along for the ride; I didn’t go out of my way to buy them. I’ve seen almost no Secure Plus coins at the shows, and have therefore yet to decline buying one. I’ve seen many CAC coins, and have not cared for a number of them.
There are no guarantees that anything you are buying will be more marketable because of fourth party opinion. You need to learn to grade, and you need get to know what YOU like in a coin and to an extent what other collectors like. There is no substitute for knowledge.
<< <i>There are no guarantees that anything you are buying will be more marketable because of fourth party opinion. You need to learn to grade, and you need get to know what YOU like in a coin and to an extent what other collectors like. There is no substitute for knowledge. >>
CAC - the coin is graded by another set of eyes and verified to be good for the grade.Some believe that CAC can tell if a coin is AT'd or messed with. In theory, a CAC'd coin should fall in the x.34 - x.99 grade range ("A" and "B") (green bean)
Secure Plus - the coin is fingerprinted so that it can be compared in the future and helps recovery if stolen. Also gives more grade levels. A Secure Plus coin without the plus is in the x.00 - x.69 of the grade. A coin with the plus is x.70 - x.99 (about 15% of coins). Coming in January, all Secure Plus coins will also be "Sniffed" to see if there are any foreign substances on the coin or messed with. "Sniffed" coins are guaranteed to be naturally toned.
So at this juncture, I would say a CAC coin "may" have more value. Once the "Sniffer" is operational then hands down, Secure Plus coins have more value. One could even say that once the sniffer is operational then CAC adds almost no value aside from another set of eyes. If you have coins with color or red copper (this is what the OP is known for), then I would want Secure Plus with the Sniffer.
I assume at this point, there are some coins being "sniffed" now before the roll out on a test basis.
edited to show correct CAC lower range (thanks mark)
<< <i> ....In theory, a CAC'd coin should fall in the x.50 - x.99 grade range (green bean) >>
CAC seeks to sticker, what they consider to be "A" and "B", but not "C" quality coins. So, in theory, the low end CAC'd coin should start at x.34, not x.50.
The SecurePlus service is a fingerprinting and anti-doctoring service.
The CAC is a good for the grade or goes higher than the grade evaluation service.
Two Different Animals. Apples and Oranges.
""Sniffed" coins are guaranteed to be naturally toned." This statement is not true.
Cheers, RickO
<< <i>love what Bill Jones said. Go read that again! >>
Bill Jones is one of the few collectors here who has the ability to make all those calls on his own. --Jerry
uses technology that may or may not be perfect but it beats a blank also offers a guarantee and nullify's the need for a sticker that offers none of the above except a second opinion.
I think this thread will go poof soon.
I'm looking for comparable auction prices realized for a same or similar coin. For example there was a 1909 VDB ms 67 Secure + coin sold in the last B&M auction for about $3,900. Does anyone know of a 1909 VDB in MS 67 CAC that sold recently in auction ?
Stewart
<< <i>I'm looking for comparable auction prices realized for a same or similar coin. For example there was a 1909 VDB ms 67 Secure + coin sold in the last B&M auction for about $3,900. Does anyone know of a 1909 VDB in MS 67 CAC that sold recently in auction ?
Stewart >>
And even if there were such an example, Stewart, what would that tell you other than that one happened to sell for more or less than the other? You've been around long enough to know that individual examples are often meaningless. And that there can be any number of known or unknown reasons why one coin of the same date and grade sells for a different price than another ones does.
Apples and Oranges.
SecurePlus is a fingerprinting and anti-coin doctoring process.
CAC beans looks at the grades.
I believe you want to compare the PCGS coins receiving the "+" designation and a CAC green bean. A "+" from PCGS can be had on a regular OR SecurePlus submission.
<< <i>I am a novice and would like to learn >>
I have forgotten more than I would like to admit.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Not all of us can preview auction offerings or find someone sufficiently knowledgeable to preview coins for them. I often have to rely on the photographs when deciding. If a CAC stickered coin is offered I bid more aggressively knowing JA thought it was an "A" or "B" coin. I'm assuming others will look at it the same way when I sell.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
High-end coins can have very fragile surfaces and it takes little friction or mishap to damage them. I become concerned with some of my coins which have been graded/reholdered multiple times. I know PCGS handles coins very carefully when in their system, but band saws and humans are cutting plastic handling the coins, and delicate surfaces can be damaged. Regardless of guarantees (PCGS has great ones), a coin damaged may be irreplaceable at any cost.
<< <i>The 67RD Secure Plus VDB you mention from the B&M auction was actually a 67+RD coin in a Secure Plus holder, not just a 67RD... so comparing that sale to sales of regular 67RD CAC coins that have sold in the range of $1300-$1800 in the past several months isn't quite apples to apples but maybe that's what you're trying to do?? Now, if there was a 67+RD CAC coin in a regular blue holder (not Secure Plus) then that price would be more interesting to see what value the Secure Plus adds (or takes?) from a coin. >>
Right now the difference would be $15 or $25. (tongue in cheek answer.)
That is the difference between regular service fees and SP service fees.
Again, SecurePlus is a fingerprinting and anti-coin doctoring technology.
If someone pays more for a CAC sticker it is because of the grade.
If someone pays more for a SecurePlus holder, it is because of the security.
Apples and Oranges.
Illini's "+" is a much better apples to apples comparison.
I would like to assist, but I don't think any of us can compare the 2 services, to find the examples you are looking for, as a result of an auction.
But, based on my viewing at many sales, and the knowledge I ( and you) have obtained from looking at thousands of coins, and seeing the results in many many sales.......
These 2 services( CAC and Secure Plus with a +) will make a difference for some coins in some grades.
Example: Assume that the particular coin is in the upper % for the grade for CAC, and in the top 10% for +. If the coin is an 1826 CBH in 53, neither the CAC bean nor the + will make a real difference in the price realized at auction.
But, if there is a large pop in 65, and none or maybe 1 coin graded in 66, the 65+ will bring more than the CAC green bean. Being almost 66 is a lot better than being solid for grade among 30 other 65's.
For generic gold, either additional designation will probably mean the same thing- it gives confidence that the coin has not been messed with.
My experience with the auction scene does not include any recommendation to send a coin or set in for Secure Plus review. However, I did get such advice to have my Barber halves reviewed by JA before the sale in Jan. 2009. ( This occured before Secure Plus was available)
Today, my Early and Capped bust halves are all Secure Plus, with quite a few +'s.
For just any SecurePlus (no +) and any CAC - there is no valid comparison you can make.
<< <i>
<< <i>I am a novice and would like to learn >>
I have forgotten more than I would like to admit.
And I know less than you have forgotten
<< <i>Give me a Secure + with a CAC gold sticker. I'll gladly pay over bid - sight unseen.
put me down for two!
I recently blogged on auction prices realized for PCGS Plus + graded coins. Some were Standard holders, some Secure Plus. None had stickers. It is difficult to find non-stickered PCGS Plus coins in auction since it appears that all the auction companies immediately send them out for stickering.
Check it out here My blog
Read my blog and judge for yourself.
"Justhavingfun's" former coin - it previously sold about 2 years ago in the 01/04/09 Superior sale (lot 666) for $2,645.00 as a PCGS-MS67 coin. That collection of Roosies shattered Price Guide prices but many prices were not changed (e.g. $575) as JHF's coins were not "typical". The + price represented about a 33% premium over the last sale price level for the coin two years earlier.
I was offered the svbd MS66RD+ cent after the sale so double check with Bowers to ensure that was not a buyback figure they might have been reporting. That said, it was a nice coin and I thought certainly worth the level they are reporting. *** Edited to add that Bowers now shows this as a $0 sale by the way.
Wondercoin
also edited to add:
1951-S 5¢ MS66+FS $1,300 $2,703 - This coin also failed to meet reserve. I just checked and Bowers now shows this as a $0 sale
Welllll - comparing + price realized to PCGS price guide to show an effect may or may not be an accurate method. There are certain prices in there that I'm aware of where I'd happily pay a huge premium to acquire a non plus coin at that level.
[example that comes to mind is PCGS MS63 1794 dollar at $900k. Absolutely, positively a million dollar + coin].
here's a pic that doesn't quite do it justice, but it's better than B&M images I think...
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>A SecurePlus with a + is certainly worth more than any holder with a CAC (but no +). If only because all CCE dealers can bid competitively sight unseen for these low pop coins. Bids are only assumed to be for CAC when the bidding is offered by JA on CCE.
For just any SecurePlus (no +) and any CAC - there is no valid comparison you can make. >>
It's too bad people are buying these labels instead of the coins. Perhaps a better way to have asked the question to a bunch of coin collectors would have been, "Which of these hold the better coins?" I'd think that'd be more meaningful.
<< <i>Since I had all of my significant raw coins slabbed several years ago, I have no interest in going through the whole process again. Some of my coins are high end for grade on the holder; most are dead on; and a few are "optimistically graded." I know which is which, and I don’t need to pay for fourth party opinions to tell me what I already know. When time comes to sell my collection in a major auction, I’ll work with the auction house on a marketing strategy. Anything that I could do prior to that date would be a waste of money unless I wanted to sell a coin for some reason and thought that it would do better with a forth party enhancement.
To date I have four CAC approved and two Secure Plus coins in my collection. The markers came along for the ride; I didn’t go out of my way to buy them. I’ve seen almost no Secure Plus coins at the shows, and have therefore yet to decline buying one. I’ve seen many CAC coins, and have not cared for a number of them.
There are no guarantees that anything you are buying will be more marketable because of fourth party opinion. You need to learn to grade, and you need get to know what YOU like in a coin and to an extent what other collectors like. There is no substitute for knowledge. >>
Please read this post. Bravo!
I recently sent about 10 coins to Heritage Galleries for inclusion in the FUN sale. Some had PCGS Secure +,some did not,some were older holders and some were new. The Heritage Rep told me to send all the coins to CAC because CAC coins brought more money than non CAC coinsin Heritage auctions. The rep also said he felt PCGS Secure + was too new to have an evaluation on whether it was worthwhile to invest in grading fees.
Ms Morrisine- You are wrong about your assessment that PCGS Secure is only about fingerprinting and anti coin doctoring technology.
Secure+ prices for most coins are listed on the PCGS price guide. CAC and PCGS Secure are both Apples but only different varieties.
Illini - If that 1909 VDB were to grade PCGS MS 68 red it would be a $20,000 + coin. As a MS 67 it is a $1,000 coin.
Stewart
<< <i>Illini - If that 1909 VDB were to grade PCGS MS 68 red it would be a $20,000 + coin. As a MS 67 it is a $1,000 coin. >>
Correction, it's a MS-67+. I mean, as long as we're all talking as if we're coin investors.
<< <i>I recently sent about 10 coins to Heritage Galleries for inclusion in the FUN sale. Some had PCGS Secure +,some did not,some were older holders and some were new. The Heritage Rep told me to send all the coins to CAC because CAC coins brought more money than non CAC coinsin Heritage auctions. The rep also said he felt PCGS Secure + was too new to have an evaluation on whether it was worthwhile to invest in grading fees.
Ms Morrisine- You are wrong about your assessment that PCGS Secure is only about fingerprinting and anti coin doctoring technology.
Secure+ prices for most coins are listed on the PCGS price guide. CAC and PCGS Secure are both Apples but only different varieties.
Illini - If that 1909 VDB were to grade PCGS MS 68 red it would be a $20,000 + coin. As a MS 67 it is a $1,000 coin.
Stewart >>
Stewart, it has been unclear to at least some of us, as to whether you have been speaking of "Secure Plus" tier coins in general, (without plus grades), or "Secure Plus" tier coins which have received a plus grade. Now it appears that you were speaking about the latter.
of "cheap slab" dealers and in "bullet" type auctions
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>If you have auction experience buying or selling coins in SECURE + holders as well as CAC coins, which product do you believe
will bring you more money in auction?
What advise do the auction companies recommend ?
I am a novice and would like to learn
Stewart Blay >>
I have absolute zero doubt that over time, two years max, Secure Plus not only will bring more profit than CAC but also that it will, within no more than four years (likely three) bring about the end of CAC.
CAC is hand holding. Secure Plus is concrete proof that a coin is the real deal, in addition to being fully backed by the PCGS guarantee.
<< <i>If you have auction experience buying or selling coins in SECURE + holders as well as CAC coins, which product do you believe
will bring you more money in auction?
What advise do the auction companies recommend ?
I am a novice and would like to learn
Stewart Blay >>
I cannot speak from a seller's perspective but I can speak from a buyer's perspective.
#1 Non-plus with gold sticker
#2 Plus coin
#3 Non-plus with green sticker
Then again, I'm not into registry sets, which I think is not a smart game to play. Unless you have the #1 set or a top-pop coin. I have never been much into sports where there are judges i.e gymnastics, platform diving, registry sets.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Of course, when you see some of the top Registry sets go in for regrading and around half the coins get a plus designation it makes it look pretty easy...
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>I'm looking for comparable auction prices realized for a same or similar coin. For example there was a 1909 VDB ms 67 Secure + coin sold in the last B&M auction for about $3,900. Does anyone know of a 1909 VDB in MS 67 CAC that sold recently in auction ?
Stewart >>
Stewart, what was that "green spot" right on the bow tie of the 1909 VDB 67 Secure + coin?
<< <i>
Stewart, what was that "green spot" right on the bow tie of the 1909 VDB 67 Secure + coin? >>
That is a mark on the holder and isn't on the coin. Same goes for several spots that show up on the photo above the bow tie. The slab seems to have gotten banged up quite a bit in its travels, I guess it's hard to keep them looking perfect when it's offered for sale at a few major coin shows and then goes through lot viewing at B&M. It will be reholdered and probably imaged for CoinFacts next time I send some coins in.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
This would assume that every current PCGS coin that doesn't technically meet today's "secure holder" standards will be downgraded and the loss taken at PCGS. It would be huge. That's why I don't think this will happen. There will be plenty of liner coins that will be grandfathered into secure holders because the financial downside is too large to accept, even over 5-10 yrs. The liner coins accumulated from 23 yrs of grading just can't be set aside. Because of this there will always be a use for CAC or CAC-copy cats. Remember that CAC was primarily formed to provide a pool of coins for CAC dealers and owners to buy and sell from. Secure holders are not going to change that unless they adopt the CAC standards. PCGS, NGC, CAC, etc all have different standards, and that will likely continue. Fwiw, look at the grading of MS65 to 67 saints where only about 10-20% of PCGS/NGC coins meet CAC standards. No way secure grading will ever tighten up that much. If just for the trading of truly Gem saints and gem gold in general, CAC will always have a place.
roadrunner
CoinGuy1 << And even if there were such an example, Stewart, what would that tell you other than that one happened to sell for more or less than the other? You've been around long enough to know that individual examples are often meaningless. And that there can be any number of known or unknown reasons why one coin of the same date and grade sells for a different price than another one does.>>
On this point, I agree with CoinGuy1. I have written a large number of coin auction reviews for Numismatic News [weekly] and CoinLink.com. There would be a need to analyze the auction results of a substantial number of related coins in Secure (no plus) holders, Secure (with plus) holders, and CAC stickered holders to even begin to form a hypothesis that relates to Stewart’s original question in the OP.
MsMorrisine << You cannot compare auction prices on SecurePlus coins and CAC green bean coins. … Apples and Oranges -- SecurePlus is a fingerprinting and anti-coin doctoring process. CAC beans looks at the grades.>>
For the most part, I agree here with MsMorrisine. Certainly, Stewarts’s equivocating of SecurePlus with CAC is misleading. A coin in a Secure holder can be a low end coin, a ‘C’ coin in Albanese’s terminology. The CAC, though, does not “just look at the grades,” as MsMorrisine says, CAC experts also try hard to detect doctored coins and they have amazing abilities in this regard.
MsMorrisine is correct, I believe, in that it is the ‘secure’ aspects of the SecurePlus program that are central and should be emphasized. Please read my two part series.
BillJones <<… I’ve seen almost no Secure Plus coins at the shows, and have therefore yet to decline buying one.>>
I have seen more than Bill, but not nearly as many as I expected to see. I am concerned and that is one of the reasons why I wrote about the SecurePlus program, which should be expanded very soon while it still has momentum. With reform, the SecurePlus program may still become the smashing success that it has the potential to be.
Before anyone reads part 2, keep in mind that, while I disagree with some of Don Willis’s policies and with his interpretation of markets in rare coins as these pertain to the SecurePlus program, I have enormous respect for Don Willis. In my opinion, it is great that Willis is the president of the PCGS; to this position, Don brings a terrific mix of experiences. He has been a successful as an entrepreneur, as a high level executive at a large IT firm, and as a coin dealer. Moreover, from my conversations with Willis, I have become convinced that Don is genuinely concerned about the well being of collectors, the fairness of PCGS services, and the fate of rare coins themselves. I just disagree with Willis’ viewpoint that collector demands (which can only be vaguely understood) or “the market” should ‘drive’ the PCGS SecurePlus program.
The PCGS SecurePlus Program, Part 2: Reform
The PCGS SecurePlus Program, Part 1: An Explanation
The rise in the number of collectors of rare U.S. coins and the importance of the PCGS