The thing about the registry set concept that I don't get

ColonialCoinUnion · November 1, 2003 10:59PM

Lets take a hypothetical example:

Lets say you are very fortunate and own a beautiful, eye-appealing choice PCGS MS63 1889-cc Morgan dollar.

Lets say another guy (maybe the same guy who keeps his bidder card permanently aloft at auctions) has a dark, blotchy, toned 1889-cc Morgan in PCGS MS64.

The 63 is more attractive, more eye-appealing and most people would prefer to own that one, but the Registry set concept considers only numerical grade and therefore has determined the 64 to be a 'better' coin.

I just don't think that makes a lot of sense.

Isn't there more to determining desirablity than the numerical grade? Isn't assembling a set of coins based solely on numerical grade a little like, I don't know, hiring people based on their SAT scores? or drafting college football players based solely on their 40-yard dash times? Or choosing a bride based solely on bust size?

I'm not sure any of those things are really good ideas.

fcloud · November 1, 2003 11:11PM

I am one whom has placed lower grade coins in my Mercury Dime set because the lower grade coin looks better than another coin of higher grade. I even include circ coins in my set in which some will get upgraded and some will not. I know I will never be number one in the dimes and simply don't care. It is fun for me and it is a place to store photos while the coins reside in the safety deposit box.

If you don't get it, simply don't participate. It is a choice, some people like it and some don't.

Fairlaneman · November 1, 2003 11:25PM

Well said Tony.

It still amazes me that some people think Registry participation is only about the numbers and nothing else. Maybe a few of these people should try Registry participation.....well maybe not because the views they have about how the registry works would just turn them into number chasers instead of collectors.

Ken

CarlWohlforth · November 1, 2003 11:29PM

Colleges screen out people based on SAT score. Then they choose among those who do meet their minimum score.

I have upgraded coins in my set to better looking examples with the same grade. I agree there are people who buy based only on the label, but I'm not sure every one of them is building a registry set.

BAJJERFAN · November 1, 2003 11:29PM

Well there HAS TO BE SOME criteria by which to to draw the line and make a distinction. Technical grade is the easiest because it is the one thing all coins have/had in common when they were struck. If the owner so chooses that tacky looking 64 can often be changed into an eye-appealing white blazer simply by dipping. Then again beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

fcloud · November 1, 2003 11:40PM

Thanks, Ken.

Here is an example of a coin in my set. This coins only grades MS62FB. Grade on the holder isn't everything!

joeyuk · November 1, 2003 11:45PM

technical grade is more objective while eye appeal is more subjective.

jbsteven · November 1, 2003 11:53PM

look at the split on those bands on that 1918!

FatMan · November 2, 2003 12:11AM

Registry Sets are a competitive game. All good competitions need to have measurable scoring methods. The grading companies (who are the referees for the game) only measure technical grade. Your scenario is like a football game where your favorite team played much better than the other team but lost. Once the game was over you and the other fans sit around the bar and console each other with "yeah, they might of won but we are clearly the better team".

The top registry sets are only the best sets as determined by the TPG scoring system. Some of us like to use a different scoring system when we build our sets. All I can say, if you are not going to use the scoring system the referees use, then don't play.

Some day the scoring may change. NGC has already moved toward the eye appeal side of the equation with the "*". Unfortunately you can't add and subtract "*"'s but someday the TPG may quantify eye appeal with a score. You think TPG are under fire now for inconsistency, wait til this happens.

Just remember, coin collecting is personal. All of us do it for different reasons. For those egotists, the registry sets are a great way to get "stroked". To each their own.

Dog97 · November 2, 2003 12:12AM

That's why the Set Registry has a place for you to post pictures and make comments about your coins.
Everybody knows that the set with the highest grade average isn't necessarily the best strikes, lesser marked or most pretty surfaces but the sets with the most overgraded, maxed out, overpriced coins that make the endless circle from dealer to collector to eBay to dealer to collector to eBay to dealer to collector to collector to dealer to doctor to dealer to dipper to dealer to collector.
Myself I like the most interesting looking coins and will delete a 65 DMPL from my Reg Set to enter a reguler non-DMPL 63 with some kind of unusual or interesting tone pattern or heavy frost or even they type of holder it's in.
A good case in point is my 84-O; high grade 84-O's are a dime a dozen but mine is a lowly MS-60 but hey, it has a rainbow crescent and is also a Sample Slab. Nobody else has a Sample Slab in any Reg Set.
My set that should get some kind of award for having a high percentage of completeness vs. a low grade point average. I'm something like 35% with 6,000 points vs. 15%-20% sets with 10,000, 20,000 & 30,000 points.
The higher ranking sets don't even have pictures nor do the owners bother to post comments so I imagine their coins are overgraded, maxed out, overpriced junk that they are not proud of but they do have the big numbers which is the object.

ConstellatioCollector · November 2, 2003 12:29AM

That IS a very appealing coin, fcloud!

Fairlaneman · November 2, 2003 12:46AM

If number chasing was the game this MS64 coin could have been replaced many times.

Maybe the Merc registry/collectors here have a different idea about the registry. Guess we are just plain screwed up with the whole concept.

Ken

fcloud · November 2, 2003 12:59AM

<< Maybe the Merc registry/collectors here have a different idea about the registry. Guess we are just plain screwed up with the whole concept. >>

Ken,

Maybe we are the only normal ones!

Nice '25!

Tony

melikecoins · November 2, 2003 1:03AM

I believe that the vast majority of the higher graded coins will be the better looking coins.
One can always find an exception. But not consistently.

Glen

stujoe · November 2, 2003 1:09AM

I enjoy looking at registry sets that have pictures and descriptions.

The ones that don't have pictures just aren't of interest to me but I am not a participant, either, so maybe that is why.

numonebuyer · November 2, 2003 1:09AM

<< The 63 is more attractive, more eye-appealing and most people would prefer to own that one, but the Registry set concept considers only numerical grade and therefore has determined the 64 to be a 'better' coin. >>

I don't mean to offend, but don't you understand how the "number" is determined? You make it sound like eye appeal is not factored into the "number". The "number" is based on 1) Surface preservation (after it has been determined the coin is circulated or uncirculated); 2) Strike; 3) Luster; and (sound the horns) 4) Eye appeal.

All of the factors must come into play.

So, in your example, let us say the 63 has great eye appeal, average surface preservation, above average luster, but is a dog in the strike department (this one area by the way will keep it from ever getting above a 64 grade). Also, let us say the 64 has average surface preservation, average luster, below average eye appeal, but has a razor sharp strike, it could grade 64.

In conclusion, do not try seperate the grade (the "number") from eye appeal.

Numonebuyer

numonebuyer · November 2, 2003 1:11AM

<< t still amazes me that some people think Registry participation is only about the numbers and nothing else >>

If your statement really means that "some people think Registry participation is only about obtaining the best coins and nothing else", then I am guilty as charged. What exactly is it that you are trying to collect?

Numonebuyer

abuell · November 2, 2003 1:24AM

I'll stick with my registry set of Fugio coppers - all hand picked, slabbed in airtite holders and graded by the world's most reputable Fugio grading service - me! Now if only I had the #1 registry set. Oh, well.

relayer · November 2, 2003 1:28AM

The Registry points should not be based on grade, but instead on how much you spent for the coin.

ColonialCoinUnion · November 2, 2003 1:34AM

<< 

<< The 63 is more attractive, more eye-appealing and most people would prefer to own that one, but the Registry set concept considers only numerical grade and therefore has determined the 64 to be a 'better' coin. >>

I don't mean to offend, but don't you understand how the "number" is determined? You make it sound like eye appeal is not factored into the "number". The "number" is based on 1) Surface preservation (after it has been determined the coin is circulated or uncirculated); 2) Strike; 3) Luster; and (sound the horns) 4) Eye appeal.

All of the factors must come into play.

So, in your example, let us say the 63 has great eye appeal, average surface preservation, above average luster, but is a dog in the strike department (this one area by the way will keep it from ever getting above a 64 grade). Also, let us say the 64 has average surface preservation, average luster, below average eye appeal, but has a razor sharp strike, it could grade 64.

In conclusion, do not try seperate the grade (the "number") from eye appeal.

Numonebuyer >>

Based on your explanation above, you are convinced that the best, most eye-appealing, most desireable, most valuable coin is always the example in the holder with the higher number.

I think a small sampling of coins at any bourse on any weekend anywhere would demonstrate that what you are saying is simply not true.

rainbowroosie · November 2, 2003 2:04AM

This topic is the basis for the great roosie wars....numbers on holders, or the coins inside...I will gladly place all my sets side-by-side against numerically higher sets, but let's cover up the assigned grades...I KNOW which set most people will choose.

mgoodm3 · November 2, 2003 2:06AM

I would assume most who do the registries are like anyone else. They like collecting coins, nice looking/high-grade whatever. There are probably a few in the registry circles that care only of the number on the plastic and are willing to pay for it. There are people around here that don't give a rip what the technical grade is and collect toned coins and are willing to pay for it.

(Here's the mushy part) We come in all shapes, sizes, denominations and types. There's room for everyone. Come on, we need a big group hug here.

Oh, should add that technical grade is the only semi-objective way to judge coins against each other we've got. you could go on price but that would work cause someone would intentionally overpay to get a better number.

Fairlaneman · November 2, 2003 2:36AM

Numonebuyer

It is not what I am trying to collect since joining the registry but what has been collected.

Knowledge from fellow collectors, some very nice acquaitances with collectors of the same series, which by the way probably never would have happened without joining the registry, and of course the means to get first shot at some very nice coins before they get sold to a dealer or put on Ebay.

When it comes to the coins I still collect exactly what was collected before the registry was discovered. Well almost. Now instead of both NGC graded coins and PCGS graded coins its mostly just PCGS graded coins. The Kool Aid has spillith over. There is a reason for collecting the PCGS graded coins within the series that is collected. I will not get into that again though.

So if you just collect the best coins possible I believe you are missing some of the items that come along with being in the registry. Don't feel alone though. The people that Poo Poo the registry are probably missing the intangibles also.

Ken

wingedliberty · November 2, 2003 2:37AM

CCU:
You're assessment is correct. Generally speaking coins of a higher grade will have better eye appeal, but there are numerous exceptions.
The Registry is driven by competition and ego in many cases, We are all victims to that on and off, but I have grown to balance that with eye appeal in every coin that I have, the grade and the service is just protection when its time to upgrade because someone else may not like the coin aesthetically. This is my philosophy of collecting, having the best of both worlds!

ColonialCoinUnion · November 2, 2003 2:40AM

<< Generally speaking coins of a higher grade will have better eye appeal, but there are numerous exceptions.

The Registry is driven by competition and ego in many cases, We are all victims to that on and off, but I have grown to balance that with eye appeal in every coin that I have, the grade and the service is just protection when its time to upgrade because someone else may not like the coin aesthetically. This is my philosophy of collecting, having the best of both worlds! >>

Thats pretty well said.

jbsteven · November 2, 2003 2:42AM

<< but is a dog in the strike department (this one area by the way will keep it from ever getting above a 64 grade). >>

here is a coin that is graded a ms66 and has a weak strike. If this coin had a average or strong strike would be a ms68 all day long. I have seen many 68's and this one beats them all when it comes to surface preservation. The luster is nice and eye appeal is way up there (it is at PCGS right now for cross).

Fairlaneman · November 2, 2003 2:43AM

<< The Registry is driven by competition and ego in many cases >>

Maybe someone should start a Poll on this statement just to see how a registry participant views his/her involvement.

Ken

nucklehead · November 2, 2003 3:16AM

<< 

<< but is a dog in the strike department (this one area by the way will keep it from ever getting above a 64 grade). >>

here is a coin that is graded a ms66 and has a weak strike. If this coin had a average or strong strike would be a ms68 all day long. I have seen many 68's and this one beats them all when it comes to surface preservation. The luster is nice and eye appeal is way up there (it is at PCGS right now for cross).

>>

That is without doubt,one of the nicest Morgan dollars I've ever seen.Major eye appeal.

jbsteven · November 2, 2003 3:27AM

nuckle

thanks

The coin has MAYBE 3 TINY marks on the whole coin. One of the nicest surfaces I have owned.

Clankeye · November 2, 2003 3:34AM

I have a small registry set of Carver Commemoratives. I started it to try to understand something better that I didn't have any experience with. I have to say that I have enjoyed it. I like photographing the coins and entering them in my online coin "album." That's the way I look at it.

I approached it with a different goal than the idea of being the top set. My purpose and challenge was to put together a set mostly in MS64 grades that would be as eye appealing as a higher graded set. This is a challenge and it's a good one.

It is still a work in progress, but so far, I believe that I am succeeding on that level. So far every coin I have chosen for the set has as much or more eye appeal than higher graded examples of the date that I have owned in the past.

The Registry, like most everything else I've found in numismatics, can be approached a variety of ways. I would say you only know that you are doing it wrong if you're not enjoying it.

Clankeye

Russ · November 2, 2003 3:48AM

<< My purpose and challenge was to put together a set mostly in MS64 grades that would be as eye appealing as a higher graded set. >>

Exactly what I'm doing with my Walker Short Set. All MS64, with the goal of full boat, eye-crossing luster and cartwheel. It's an uphill battle at this grade level, but the challenge makes it fun. Three coins to go, and one dog to replace.

Russ, NCNE

numonebuyer · November 2, 2003 4:51AM

I will be very interested in seeing how the NGC MS-66 Morgan (pictured elsewhere in this thread) crosses to PCGS. By definition, a PCGS graded coin MUST be well struck to be MS-65 or above. I refer you to page 25 and 43 of the OFFICAL Guide To COIN GRADING AND COUNTERFEIT DETECTION. I quote from the book on page 43 "If a coin has nearly perfect surfaces but is not well-struck, PCGS will assign a grade no higher than MS-64".

Numonebuyer

keets · November 2, 2003 4:56AM

eye-appealing choice PCGS MS63 1889-cc Morgan dollar

a dark, blotchy, toned 1889-cc Morgan in PCGS MS64.

if you consider a given grade, it's a compilation of many factors including strike, contact marks or wear, luster, eye appeal and the opinion of the grader. a coin having the technical grade of MS63 would be lacking in one area or have some detraction which results in the grade, perhaps a slight break/weakness of luster, some excessive contacts in a highly visible area like the cheek, or even some strike weakness which is noticeable. at the same time, perhaps the MS64 which has unattractive tone, has superior luster and an exceptionally strong strike with minimal marks.

off the topic slightly, though it may not be the sole determinant in a lifetime commitment, i can attest to there being some merit in the consideration of bust-size in a bride!! but that's just me.

al h.

tradedollarnut · November 2, 2003 4:58AM

I don't believe that the strike on the 98-S is soft enough to preclude the MS66 grade. Perhaps it's just the scan, but the texture of the luster seems "off". San Francisco coins generally have booming, frosty luster and that coin seems completely satiny. Perhaps that is a characteristic of the date or just a feature of the scan, but to me it's the limiting factor in the grade.

Russ · November 2, 2003 4:58AM

<< I refer you to page 25 and 43 of the OFFICAL Guide To COIN GRADING AND COUNTERFEIT DETECTION >>

It's a mistake to assume that PCGS always uses their own guidelines when grading coins.

Russ, NCNE

tradedollarnut · November 2, 2003 5:03AM

By definition, a PCGS graded coin MUST be well struck to be MS-65 or above

PCGS is a stickler for an MS65 being well struck. That is why there is only one MS65 1877 trade dollar - they come with flat stars. But wouldn't you call a coin with 99% detail, such as the 98-S Morgan pictured above well struck?

Bobk · November 2, 2003 5:20AM

CCU. Are you collecting for your own enjoyment, someones number game, investment. I have two coins of the same type and mint. One is rated ms64 the other ms65. The ms64 is a lot easier to look at than the ms65. I did the only logical thing, I kept them both for different reasons. Bob

jbsteven · November 2, 2003 5:53AM

tradedollar

I agree most S mint Morgans have booming luster. This one has pretty good luster but it is not like a 79-81 S mint.

The satiny look to the coin is because of the lighting and angle of the picture.

Fairlaneman · November 2, 2003 6:25AM

<< "If a coin has nearly perfect surfaces but is not well-struck, PCGS will assign a grade no higher than MS-64"

<< .

Thats the biggest batch of bull I have ever heard. Maybe this was so in the beginning of PCGS but certainly is not so nowdays. Then again maybe the statement only pertains to certain coin series and not other series. By no means does the statement pertain to NGC at all.

Being consistent just does not enter into the picture at all with the statement above.

Ken

Shamika · November 2, 2003 6:28AM

"The Registry points should not be based on grade, but instead on how much you spent for the coin."

Even better, points should be based on the market value of the coin. I've always had issues with how coins are wieghted per the Registry scoring system.

Clankeye · November 2, 2003 6:48AM

<< Alot you guys sound like "sour grapes" >>

"Sour grapes" ---I find that kind of puzzling. It sounds to me like people that can appreciate coins and numismatics on a fairly pure and realistic level.

Sometimes I can not for the life of me make a case for coin X with one almost imperceptable tic, being held in less esteem (financially and otherwise) than coin Y.

Is it a natural progression of sophistication as a collector to gravitate more to the lofty grades of perfection?--or is it the opposite--to realize there is tremendous joy to be found in coins of lessor grades and drift towards them.

I don't know. You tell me. But what ever your answer, I really don't think it amounts to "sour grapes."

Clankeye

Fairlaneman · November 2, 2003 6:54AM

Clank

Its a natural curve. Most collectors start out with lower grades and progress up higher and higher and then really get a appreciation for any nice coin.....even if it has a nick or two. Sour Grapes is thinking that only Pop Top coins are worth collecting.

Ken

ColonialCoinUnion · November 2, 2003 6:55AM

<< CCU. Are you collecting for your own enjoyment, someones number game, investment. I have two coins of the same type and mint. One is rated ms64 the other ms65. The ms64 is a lot easier to look at than the ms65. I did the only logical thing, I kept them both for different reasons. Bob >>

Bob -

I collect for my own enjoyment, but I aim to buy things for prices which will be at least reasonably good investments for the long haul.

I have no interest in creating a set of coins that will be 'ranked', but I do acknowledge that these rankings seem to strongly influence the buying behaviors of a great many people and that gets to the the heart of my investment criteria.

marcmoish · November 2, 2003 10:40AM

Many interesting comments here - in short there is nothing to get ...when you read between the lines of these posts you'll get it!.
Most of us truly enjoy the registry, and all it has to offer as mentioned above by others. I personally love parking my new additions and writing a few quick words about the condition in the registry - like Clankeye was saying......besides whoever really doesn't get it after all will pull out or stay out. It is really what you make of it. Which reminds I must eventualy put up pictures -- that is FUN!!!!

My Merc's are also chosen primarily for upper end preservation and better than average eye appeal. I don't have to be on top - numbers are numbers, and yes it's cool getting to top 10 or top 5 whatever the series - but heck I don't believe I will switch my 19-D MS65 for example which is great in terms of eye appeal and surface preservation - looks 66 and with practically full split bands - even if it meant climbing up somewhat - I truly doubt it!

Just some thoughts...

Marc

P.S. Tony looks like it is well graded - hard to tell from scan but the full split bands totally rocks!!!!
Ken - I'd keep it too - and I have, like the 45-S I have in 66FB - had many chances to upgrade
to 67FB but I just can't part with my gorgous toned flawless 66FB - I know the feeling

Jason (JB) IMHO that does look well graded if not too well gradede - but then again that is MHO, I'd be really curious what you got back from PCGS. Let us all know

keets · November 2, 2003 10:50AM

hey TDN

the central areas of jb's morgan are way to flat-struck to rate MS68 and though it may be in part due to a picture, the abscence of booming luster would do the same. though the coin may be mark free, as you well know, the grade is based on much more than that. it looks good in the 66 holder.

al h.

tradedollarnut · November 2, 2003 11:13AM

Keets - an MS68 should be fully struck and therefore I agree with your statement that the strike might preclude his coin from MS68. But an MS65/66 should be well struck. My opinion is that the coin meets that criteria easily.

I have no idea whether it will cross or not, but I do think the luster [if accurately portrayed by the scan] would be the limiting factor at the MS66 grade level.

mintluster · November 2, 2003 11:21AM

Looks like a MS66/67 to me. But this is still not the same as holding it.

IrishMike · November 2, 2003 12:37PM

Sometimes I feel that no matter how nice a coin is or how high its graded, there is someone out there that will think it is. Actually I don't feel this I know this. I used to think that there was something wrong with becuase I never put much stock in owning the finest clothes, the most expensive or exciting car. Several years ago when I was approached to sell my company and go to work for the purchaser I thought wow with all that cash I can really buy some expensive toys. Fortunately after a couple of purchases I realized that this didn't appeal to me, it gave me little satisfaction. As a matter of fact my life changed very little. The things I enjoy most in life don't cost much if any money.

Clankeye I think you were on the start of something very important. There is a progression not just in coin collecting but other things in life as well. I'd rather find an interesting coin, one that meets my standards then worry about how many registry points it scores. I am more fascinated by the history of the coins, the manufacture of them, how the market has involved etc. then owning a coin. I almost wrote a huge check a few years back at Central States. I walked away thought about it and realized it just wasn't me to spend those kinds of sums on 4 coins. It was tough, these were 4 IHC's, graded 66 Red. I still think about how nice they were, but I also know that they would sit in a bank vault and give little pleasure. I can grab my loupe pull out out my albums and really enjoy studying them.

I have some registry sets, not here but that is another story. I enjoy them, somewhat, but it is not the reason why I collect. One doesn't have to own a coin to enjoy it. A great photo or story about the coin or a trip to Shylock's gives me as much pleasure. Trying to collect in 64 can be more rewarding then paying premiums for higher grades as others have pointed out. Collecting for me and having registry sets are not mutually exclusive ideas.

Lest someone come along and state that its just a function of money as came up in threads about designations, I can only say I think you don't get it, but there is still hope.

Edited to add: to those of you that have monster registry sets, I do get what motivates you to collect and you should be commended for what you have accomplished.

Gilbert · November 3, 2003 1:12AM

<< here is a coin that is graded a ms66 and has a weak strike. If this coin had a average or strong strike would be a ms68 all day long >>

Can I just poke my nose in on the "98-S strike issue?

I don't believe this is a weakly struck coin. If you look at the high points, they ARE they - the detail isn't. I believe this specimen is the result of a somwhat deteriorating master die. Been hubbed a few times without being touched up. Again, the depth (as much as can be determined from an image is there. Considering the lack of detail at the very highest points and the reflectiveness one might see on early "S" coins, I think it is a "die maintenance" issue and not a strike issue.

jbstevens - that IS an exceptional looking coin. Regarding your comparison to other MS68 coins, were you talking about any Morgan, "S" mint Morgans, later date Morgans or '98S Morgans? I tried to list those in what I believe is the least to most comparable choices.

Lakesammman · November 3, 2003 1:23AM

At least with IHC's, I've become convinced that PCGS grades the coins at arms-length, basing the grade on eye-appeal (ie: market grade). There are too many MS67's with weak strike to explain it any other way - they have MS64 strikes at 10X, especially the CN coins.

I've added only a few coins to my collection since the registry game started but admit to being influenced somewhat by it. Price wise, I've been the beneficiary. Others I know are seriously influenced by it to the point of paying crazy prices for the slab. If they ever have to sell the COIN after the registry hysteria runs it's course, they are going to take a bath.

The thing about the registry set concept that I don't get

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