"Grand Pretensions"
lordmarcovan
Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭✭
"Grand Pretensions"
"W.H. Vanderbilt" carved on 1826 Capped Bust half dollar
Larger obverse scan
Larger reverse scan
Host coin: 1826 Capped Bust half dollar, unaltered except for "W.H. Vanderbilt" carving in left obverse field. Ex- "lbandrc" (eBay)
Is it really possible this coin once belonged to famous 19th century railroad tycoon William Henry Vanderbilt (1821-1885)?
Sure, it's possible.
Is it probable? Not very.
But even if the engraving is a fantasy, it could be an old fantasy, from his lifetime. He was very rich and famous, after all, so anyone with a bit of time on their hands could’ve carved his name into a coin and perhaps concocted some crazy story or scheme to go with it. Or I’ll admit it’s even possible that somebody in more recent times did the same thing. My personal suspicions are that the carving is old, but let’s just say I’m not convinced the coin had anything to do with W.H. Vanderbilt personally.
But considering I acquired this piece for about 1/3 less than the regular G4 price of an 1826 Bust half dollar, I saw no reason at all not to include it in my Oddball collection.
You must admit it's intriguing. Fantasy love token? I'm OK with that. Real Vanderbilt relic from his early days? Wow, wouldn't that be neat.
Either way, I'm happy with it.
Engraved/Counterstamped/Oddball Type Set
"W.H. Vanderbilt" carved on 1826 Capped Bust half dollar
Larger obverse scan
Larger reverse scan
Host coin: 1826 Capped Bust half dollar, unaltered except for "W.H. Vanderbilt" carving in left obverse field. Ex- "lbandrc" (eBay)
Is it really possible this coin once belonged to famous 19th century railroad tycoon William Henry Vanderbilt (1821-1885)?
Sure, it's possible.
Is it probable? Not very.
But even if the engraving is a fantasy, it could be an old fantasy, from his lifetime. He was very rich and famous, after all, so anyone with a bit of time on their hands could’ve carved his name into a coin and perhaps concocted some crazy story or scheme to go with it. Or I’ll admit it’s even possible that somebody in more recent times did the same thing. My personal suspicions are that the carving is old, but let’s just say I’m not convinced the coin had anything to do with W.H. Vanderbilt personally.
But considering I acquired this piece for about 1/3 less than the regular G4 price of an 1826 Bust half dollar, I saw no reason at all not to include it in my Oddball collection.
You must admit it's intriguing. Fantasy love token? I'm OK with that. Real Vanderbilt relic from his early days? Wow, wouldn't that be neat.
Either way, I'm happy with it.
Engraved/Counterstamped/Oddball Type Set
0
Comments
Highly improbable...he would of used an 1804 dollar.
If he knew anything about numismatics, which he might not have.
More likely would have been a coin from 1821- his birthyear.
Perhaps someone on the boards can answer this -- when was "cursive" writing invented? When did it become popular? That style of writing doesn't seem to be contemporary to that time... it seems much more modern to me.
Super cool -- I think so anyway. I suspect it was done at a much later date.
Perhaps someone on the boards can answer this -- when was "cursive" writing invented? When did it become popular? That style of writing doesn't seem to be contemporary to that time... it seems much more modern to me.
"Cursive" script goes, way WAY back. But you're right. Something about that style of the carving does look a bit later, probably because we're more accustomed to the neat, tight, flowing script often seen in more professional 19th century engraving.
I have, however, seen cruder hand-done inscriptions that looked similar to this which were almost certainly done in that era. It could've been done by Sammy the Street Urchin rather than Joe the Jeweler.
When this coin is in hand, the main thing I'll be looking for is whether the script was actually carved by hand or done with a more modern electric engraving machine. I think it's old... but HOW old is the question.
PS- here is the Wikipedia page on the origins of Cursive writing
Does not look genuine and original to me.
"Genuine and original" as what? A Bust half? A love token? As a 19th century piece?
Of course it probably isn't William Henry Vanderbilt's pocket piece. Maybe it wasn't even carved in the 19th century, though I am waiting to see it under a loupe before making that determination.
It certainly looks like a real Bust half to me.
As mentioned, I paid less than G4 money for it, so even if it's a fantasy engraving (as seems likely), it still fits my Oddball set. There isn't a lot of downside at the price I paid.
If you'd asked me I would say it was signed by the true Mr Vanderbilt at a very young age. But impossible to prove. As the great Sherlock Holmes would probably write, it was signed by a young boy of great wealth in the early to mid 1800's. 50c was available to him as a privileged young man he thought high enough of himself to sign his name on objects of currency and value.
he was basically practicing signing his name which would have been normal for a young man of is stature.
He was just learning to sign his name and realized his family name was well to do and known although it was prior to his family climbing to the next step. He was pompous then as he was later in life.
He might have created it as a lucky pocket piece, if he was of an older age he would have thought to have it engraved but due to his young age this was good enough and possibly meant more since it was a live signature albeit not very well thought out i.e. he had to break it up into two parts, but that is typical of youngsters.
My wild musings ran along similar lines.
Where's the melt bucket?
Nowhere in sight! *gasp!*
You must be a part of ISIL or ISIS or whatchamacallit to suggest melting this World Heritage treasure! Tsk, tsk.
as a good luck token while building his own career..... just a thought. Cheers, RickO
Haven't taken a loupe to the engraved inscription yet, but I do get the impression that it is old.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Just thinking .........
Sorry, I disagree. It is clearly Vanderbilt, not Vandenbilt. Analyze the letter structure more closely. In the first "n" in Vanderbilt, the engraved line coming from the lower part of the "a" moves upward and gently curves into a hump, then repeats (i.e. two virtually identical "humps"). The letter after the "e" moves upward, then takes a sharp turn down at about 125 deg angle in a straight line, then makes another sharp turn straight down, then loops upward and comes back through the downward line. Elementary hand-writing analysis would conclude that these are two different letters...
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
Somebody old enough to have developed the strength and dexterity to deeply engrave on a small metallic object has certainly developed a pattern and style of writing. This wasn't a 6 year old kid. If I wanted to waste any more time on this I'd put it to a vote. But a cold beer awaits me and it will be far more enjoyable than this ridiculous pi$$ing contest.
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
My Early Large Cents
My Early Large Cents
We have not yet received LordM's final evaluation..... Cheers, RickO
I don't really have a final evaluation.
Could it have been his? Maybe, but probably not.
Let's just say I ain't holdin' my breath. It's a cool enough "what if?" scenario for me as it is.
PS- Realone and mbogoman's "VandeRbilt versus VandeNbilt" disagreement must've gone down after I wandered off, because I had missed it.
I do think it says "VandeRbilt"- I don't see an "n" there- but that doesn't mean I'm willing to arm-wrestle over that conviction, and, as mentioned, I'm certainly not going to swear up and down that the famous W.H. Vanderbilt once owned this coin. It's just that small possibility that makes it fun to speculate on, is all.
Also, I think any argument of handwriting styles is rather moot, because signing your name with pen and ink and engraving it in metal with a tool are two entirely different mechanical processes- done at different speeds- which are bound to produce different results. I know MY signature would look pretty different if I tried to scratch it into a coin. (But the point about the coin lacking any spacing after "Van" is interesting.)
Obviously not a provable Vanderbilt piece and to say it could be is really silly even though it could be.
This. I think.
A wealthy tycoon is not going to carve his name in the manner in which someone did where the quality of workmanship is so poor.
Hence the title of this thread.
And the cartoon in the OP.
True, it never will be, but that doesn't have to be "unfortunate". Some mysteries are kinda fun. We're not talkin' JFK from the Grassy Knoll, here. We're talkin' "conversation piece".
That's the whole strategy of my "Oddball" collection- to acquire cool, "gee whiz", interesting, one-of-a-kind sorta stuff you don't see every day. Stuff to talk about or speculate over.
Which this certainly is.
And, for my money (which wasn't much- only about the basic G4 price of an 1826 half), I'd say it has done its job well as a conversation piece already.
It would not have been any more or less difficult to not attach them when engraving.
My Early Large Cents