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Did I buy a counterfeit 1945 PCGS MS64FB Mercury Dime? UPDATED 8/23 IN FIRST POST
commoncents05
Posts: 10,078 ✭✭✭
Link to Heritage selling of coin with same serial number. We know this coin is obviously genuine.
Link to the auction I won on eBay.
Link to listing of another coin with SAME SERIAL NUMBER
Any thoughts?
UPDATE 8/23: I contacted the seller just minutes ago, and he has been contacted by numerous other people informing him it was a counterfeit holder. The seller had already initiated a cancel transaction request through eBay. He said he showed it to many dealers and even NGC, and nobody said anything about the coin or holder being bogus. I think the seller is a straight shooter, and mistakenly purchased the coin, and was not trying to defraud anyone in the sale. For the record, I would have no problem buying from him in the future.
-Paul
-Paul
Link to the auction I won on eBay.
Link to listing of another coin with SAME SERIAL NUMBER
Any thoughts?
UPDATE 8/23: I contacted the seller just minutes ago, and he has been contacted by numerous other people informing him it was a counterfeit holder. The seller had already initiated a cancel transaction request through eBay. He said he showed it to many dealers and even NGC, and nobody said anything about the coin or holder being bogus. I think the seller is a straight shooter, and mistakenly purchased the coin, and was not trying to defraud anyone in the sale. For the record, I would have no problem buying from him in the future.
-Paul
-Paul
Many Quality coins for sale at http://www.CommonCentsRareCoins.com
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Comments
<< <i>yes you did. The label is wrong, looks to have to much texture in the blue. >>
I think that's just because it's a scan.
-Paul
<< <i>2 people in FL selling the same coin? I am real wary on this one. >>
I agree with you 100%. However, the real ball grabber, if folks have not already piucvked up on it, is that the pictures in the two auctions are NOT of the same type. In other words, one set of pictures are actual pictures with a glare from the flash. The other set of pictures appear to be scans or high quality pictures that some folks are good at.
Still, I would suggest that you contact the seller, link the Heritage listing and the other Ebay listing as you have done here, let him know of your concern and see what he says.
<< <i>
<< <i>2 people in FL selling the same coin? I am real wary on this one. >>
I agree with you 100%. However, the real ball grabber, if folks have not already piucvked up on it, is that the pictures in the two auctions are NOT of the same type. In other words, one set of pictures are actual pictures with a glare from the flash. The other set of pictures appear to be scans or high quality pictures that some folks are good at. >>
I saved both images to my computer and the images are the same.
EAC 6024
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
EAC 6024
The obverse on the Coastal coin is much cleaner in many respects. Look at Heritage's picture to see why their coin is a "64"
If your coin doesn't match EXACTLY the coin in the Heritage photo, then get your money back.
JMHO
<< <i>The cert. number of the HA lot is the same as the cert. number for the coin you bought from Coastal Coin in Sarasota. The HA lot sold in Jan.2009, so it is entirely feasible that Coastal has had it since then. Perhaps the coin listed by the Gainesville seller was on memo from Coastal even though they had it listed on eBay, and the two parties haven't communicated well about the redundant listings. I would be confident that your coin is legit, but you may want to call Coastal and ask them about the Gainesville seller's listing. >>
Unless my eyes are deceiving me, the ID numbers for the Heritage listing and the coin which was won on Ebay ARE the same.
Jim
Edited to add: The coin could have changed hands several times since Heritage sale.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
To me, it looks like in each of the 3 listings, the rotation of the coin in each holder seems to be different, especially when I look at the reverses.
.....maybe the coin can move a little with handling, or not, in those tight rings in the slabs.........?
......I collect old stuff......
<< <i>To me, it looks like in each of the 3 listings, the rotation of the coin in each holder seems to be different, especially when I look at the reverses.
.....maybe the coin can move a little with handling, or not, in those tight rings in the slabs.........? >>
Or the coin could have been reholdered numerous times to eliminate unsightly scuffs or scratches on the holder. The cert. number would remain the same on a reholder service....SHEEESH!
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
Franklin-Lover's Forum
Scroll down to see 1945 dime
Not so on the Heritage listing and the fan4the game ebay listing.
I wouldn't pay for it and I'd contact the seller of the one you bought, as well as the sellers of the other two which appeared on Ebay, and PCGS. Perhaps through a joint effort, the source can be discovered.
Your auction win: Real.
The other listing? Fake.
(All my opinion, of course.)
peacockcoins
<< <i>Heritage: Real.
Your auction win: Real.
The other listing? Fake.
(All my opinion, of course.) >>
Pat, that is my guess, as well, but, right or wrong, man, this is getting scary!
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
I also have a the small white ANACS fake slab (with an altered 3-legged) that would fool many.
NCS is also being counterfeited now and even though they no longer holder coins there is a market place for their coins.
PCGS's big announcement was totally cool a few months back. The plus grading and all- very neat. But I was privately disappointed it really didn't involve more with anti-counterfeiting measures in their slabs (not so much the coin).
It is akin to a "Big Announcement" by McDonalds speculating it's going to be a permanent spot on their menu board for the McRib (a tasty morsel!) only to find instead it is to announce a new catsup for their burgers.
peacockcoins
But this ebay coin is an exception. But...the center bands appear too widely split and superbly defined for a 45-P. Do they even come that good? I'd be leery that they weren't enhanced. There's not a tad of weakness in the upper part of the lower diagnonal band, esp. where the leaf overlaps it. A strike this good is uncharacteristic of most slabbed TPG specimens. I looked at about half a dozen 64's to 66's on the Heritage Archives and none look as sharp as this one. It's either a freakish strike for the date or has had metal moved or even a mint-mark removed.
roadrunner
I guess we can assume the Heritage one is real. Maybe. The others are certianly not the same coin. There is obvious die plosh on the first one which doesn't show up on the the second and third one. The last two also have very strong bands where the Heritage one does not. 1945's are typically like the Heritage coin, which is why they are so tough with full bands.
Notice that the labels are not direct copies of #1 either - the 2 is positioned diferently above the bars on the last two.
<< <i>I usually don't like the bands on nearly every slabbed 1945-P FB Merc I see. The Heritage 64 listed is no exception. One has to squint to see center band separation.
But this ebay coin is an exception. But...the center bands appear too widely split and defined for a 45-P. Do they even come like that? I'd be leery that they weren't enhanced.
roadrunner >>
This is just what I thought in my eariler post.
EAC 6024
EAC 6024
EAC 6024
<< <i>Heritage----ebay-----fan4thegame
I guess we can assume the Heritage one is real. Maybe. The others are certianly not the same coin. There is obvious die plosh on the first one which doesn't show up on the the second and third one. The last two also have very strong bands where the Heritage one does not. 1945's are typically like the Heritage coin, which is why they are so tough with full bands.
Notice that the labels are not direct copies of #1 either - the 2 is positioned diferently above the bars on the last two. >>
And don't forget about this one, sold by the seller of the 1916-D Dime, discussed in another thread :
It has been asserted and subsequently proven that the coin you are listing is counterfeit. As it is illegal to sell counterfeits and doing so across state lines makes it a Federal case, I would strongly suggest you cancel this auction and never try to post it again.
<< <i>I sent the following to fan4thegame:
It has been asserted and subsequently proven that the coin you are listing is counterfeit. As it is illegal to sell counterfeits and doing so across state lines makes it a Federal case, I would strongly suggest you cancel this auction and never try to post it again. >>
Rick, if the seller doesn't think or know it to be counterfeit, why would he end the listing, based just on a message like that? Did you also refer him to this thread and the other examples with the identical ID number?
roadrunner
and your authentic coin has been tooled on the reverse
just my best guess from the pics provided
makes it hard to buy high ticket items from eBay or Craigs list
good news for legit auction houses - bad news for scammy auction/sales sites
Ill I know is if somebody brings in any higher $ slabbed coins into my store they will be looked at with extreme scrutiny
<< <i>It's the same cert number as a coin in the Craigslist counterfeit thread
Scroll down to see 1945 dime >>
WOW!
And notice the number position on the label!
<< <i>I sent the following to fan4thegame:
It has been asserted and subsequently proven that the coin you are listing is counterfeit. As it is illegal to sell counterfeits and doing so across state lines makes it a Federal case, I would strongly suggest you cancel this auction and never try to post it again. >>
Rick, I have been in touch with that seller, and it appears that he was a victim to the same Craigslist scheme that at least one of the other sellers was. He has already talked to one of the other Ebay sellers and is going to get in touch with PCGS. He also ended his listing after I provided him with a link to this thread.
Mark,
I may be wrong, but it is my opinion you are being very gullible. You appear to be taking their words that they were scammed off craigslist. That is very naive indeed. Until you see the copy of the craigslist ad they purchased from, phone records, withdrawal etc from their account to pay for the coin, a police report listing everything they know etc etc .............. it is my firm belief that you are just buying their cooked cover stories. In my book, anyone caught selling a counterfeit is the theif until PROVEN otherwise. These counterfeit coin rings are organized very similair to counterfeit bill organizations. They all depend upon a network of crooks to pass a quantity of goods. I'm not saying you are wrong in your assessment, just that you should be a whole lot more skepitcal.
Respectfully yours,
<< <i>Mark,
I may be wrong, but it is my opinion you are being very gullible. You appear to be taking their words that they were scammed off craigslist. That is very naive indeed. Until you see the copy of the craigslist ad they purchased from, phone records, withdrawal etc from their account to pay for the coin, a police report listing everything they know etc etc .............. it is my firm belief that you are just buying their cooked cover stories. In my book, anyone caught selling a counterfeit is the theif until PROVEN otherwise. These counterfeit coin rings are organized very similair to counterfeit bill organizations. They all depend upon a network of crooks to pass a quantity of goods. I'm not saying you are wrong in your assessment, just that you should be a whole lot more skepitcal.
Respectfully yours, >>
Perhaps I am being gullible. But if I am, it means that each of the Ebay sellers is working together, offering different coins with the exact same ID number - surely they could coordinate their plot and efforts much better than that.
And one of the sellers already had the name of someone to talk to at PCGS, a name that is not posted here. I believe that he would have had to take the initiative to obtain that name. Why go to that effort, if he is part of a counterfeit ring?
Also, why would one of them (from California) tie himself to the ones in Florida, by telling me about a Florida phone number that he was given? And why would he send potentially incriminating images to me, if he is in on it?
Why would two of the sellers email me and/or call me and/or provide me with a phone number (which I reached him at), if they are part of a counterfeit ring? I was no threat to them, and they could have much more easily ignored me and not provided me with any story or information.
All of the above things considered, while I am open to the possibility that I have been lied to, I think it is far more likely that they are telling the truth.
-Paul
<< <i>Heritage----ebay-----fan4thegame
>>
The font on #1 looks too bold, I would think that one is a non FB coin in a fake holder.
#2 seems genuine (speckling on the label is JPEG compression artifacts)
#3 the holder looks real, but the coin has that glossy look seen on many fakes.
<< <i>
#2 seems genuine (speckling on the label is JPEG compression artifacts)
>>
This is something to be careful on. If it seems speckled proceed with caution. JPEG compression or not this can be a indicator of a fake.