Collecting Coins with a story a/k/a provenance

northcoin · November 19, 2007 9:08AM

One of the aspects of coin collecting I find most rewarding is collecting coins that have a story to go with them. Feel free to post the story that goes with a coin you have in your collection. Here is one from mine:

The coin: PR 62 1850 Double Eagle $20 gold piece

The story: As noted on the holder, it once belonged to C.W. Green. Interestingly in reading Breen's book cataloging gold proofs I came across a reference by Breen to the very coin. He noted that there were possibly several Presentation Pieces a/k/a proofs made of the first $20 gold piece available for circulation in 1850. He went on to note that Green was reported to have one, but that he had never seen it himself. In addition, the coin is featured on CoinFacts.com as its first described "Significant example" of the 1850 Double Eagle, and CoinFacts further notes under Mintage, "Proofs: Unique?" An added personal footnote to the story. When David Bowers was compiling his book on Double Eagles I afforded him an opportunity to view the coin and to my surprise he kindly added my name to the credits for sharing the coin. (Click link below photo of the coin and my thumb for CoinFacts description of the coin.)

CoinFacts description of subject coin as "Unique?"

commoncents05 · November 19, 2007 9:12AM

That is very cool.

-Paul

fc · November 19, 2007 9:24AM

great post. very nice coin!

bstat1020 · November 19, 2007 9:35AM

That is great!

Zoins · November 19, 2007 3:19PM

Nice coin and story

tightbudget · November 19, 2007 3:20PM

That is cool. I have yet to own a coin with a pedigree...should pick up one of those Omaha Bank Hoard coins at the least one day.

northcoin · November 20, 2007 4:57AM

Thanks all.

Shamika · November 20, 2007 5:02AM

I certainly don't have a story as good as that.

northcoin · November 20, 2007 10:47AM

It is thought provoking to think that Breen never had the opportunity to see the coin he wrote about, but due to the internet everyone who has clicked on this thread has had a chance to see what Breen never saw.

mirabela · November 20, 2007 11:07AM

That's pretty cool!

WTCG · November 20, 2007 12:10PM

On the other hand, I don't think I have ever seen the description "ENHANCED SURFACES" used before.

northcoin · November 20, 2007 1:55PM

While this specimen is unique in its own way, the "story" associated with the minting of Double Eagle Gold Pieces, and in particular the Type I coins, adds to their desirability for those of us who find the historical aspects of numismatics intriguing. They are closely associated with the California Gold Rush. There is an interesting article in a current issue of Numismatic News (10/23/07) that I would recommend to anyone wanting to know more. The article is titled, "Double eagles soon flowed from the new 'S' mint," and is authored by Paul M. Green. In his article he states, "The most basic fact about double eagles is simply that had there been no gold in California, it is unlikely there would have ever been a double eagle produced by the United States."

northcoin · November 20, 2007 2:13PM

Here is the description of the subject coin for those who may not have clicked on the CoinFacts link: "This is the first collectible issue of the United States Double Eagle series. This coin has a beautiful bold strike with full stars and all other details are sharp and clear. The fields are Prooflike and you can see clearly with magnification that the dies and planchet were enhanced prior to the striking..." Be all that as it may, IMHO any 1850 Double Eagle is desirable first and foremost for its place in the history of our country and it is most appropriate that its sibling, the non collectible 1849 specimen resides in the Smithsonian.

firstmint · November 20, 2007 5:58PM

That is certainly a distinctive coin. However, in 1949, when Max Mehl catalogued it, he disagreed with the Proof designation.

Mehl had numerous real twenty dollar proofs (from 1871 to 1907) in the same sale to compare this item with, including a 1904, that Green purchased as a Proof, that Mehl correctly catalogued as "brilliant uncirculated with proof surface".

To have this in a TPG holder now, and labeled as a Proof (according to Breen) is a real misnomer. There is no evidence there were any ever presented as special pieces.

IMO, the coin is a first strike from the regular production dies, that happened to get saved and ended up in numismatic channels.

That would be the real story behind this nice coin.

Edited to add the rest of the story -

After doing some quick research and looking for an answer to the reason for such a coin being saved, I uncovered the original appearance for this particular coin.

It came from the James B. Longacre estate (the coin's designer), and was sold in the January 21, 1870 auction sale conducted by
M(oses) Thomas & Sons in Philadelphia. It was lot #178.

The lot description was: "1850, Double Eagle, proof. This piece was from the first dies used for the double eagle, and might be termed a trial piece."

There were also three 1848 CAL Quarter Eagles listed as being proof. However, most everything in the past that was prooflike has been catalogued and sold as a proof, even though that is not the case.

I believe the J B Longacre pedigree (as a first strike) is much more significant than the C W Green listing as a proof w/ enhanced surfaces.

northcoin · November 21, 2007 4:50AM

Firstmint - Thanks for that added information and enhancement of "the story."

numisma · November 21, 2007 5:38AM

I believe the J B Longacre pedigree (as a first strike) is much more significant than the C W Green listing as a proof w/ enhanced surfaces.

I agree. That is an important fact that you provided northcoin and can only add to the allure and historical significance of the piece (as well as the value). Nice work firstmint! This is proof that it pays to have an extensive library.

In today's fast pace numismatic world coins are traded quickly and often. As such, provenance and other historical facts associated with the coins tend to get lost in the transactions, which is regretful.

northcoin · November 21, 2007 10:04AM

Much appreciated.

northcoin · November 22, 2007 12:36PM

Oh - Happy Thanksgiving all.

northcoin · November 23, 2007 12:18AM

<< I believe the J B Longacre pedigree (as a first strike) is much more significant than the C W Green listing as a proof w/ enhanced surfaces.

I agree. That is an important fact that you provided northcoin and can only add to the allure and historical significance of the piece (as well as the value). Nice work firstmint! This is proof that it pays to have an extensive library.

In today's fast pace numismatic world coins are traded quickly and often. As such, provenance and other historical facts associated with the coins tend to get lost in the transactions, which is regretful. >>

Interesting point as to how easy it is for provenance not to be preserved. To the extent TPG services allow the addition of information beyond the grade on their holders it has been a plus, although there is no substitute for keeping good records and of course some TPG services are better than others at making allowance for such added intormation.

northcoin · November 25, 2007 3:56PM

Anyone with stories to add?

lordmarcovan · November 25, 2007 5:50PM

This Eliasberg-pedigreed piece was won by a good friend in my behalf. He won it and paid for it and held it for the better part of a year until I could afford to reimburse him for it. I'd "out" him for his act of generosity but he's closemouthed and private, sometimes. Let's just say he's a forum member here, and somebody I originally met on the eBay coin chat board. I had the privilege of meeting him in person once, too.

northcoin · November 26, 2007 6:02AM

Holey coin from the Holey Roman Empire? Nice modern story as well to go with it.

northcoin · November 26, 2007 8:26AM

...or is it holy coin from the Holy Roman Empire?

1794half1839 · November 26, 2007 9:22AM

I have 2 coins from the John and Sofia Tidwell collection of Bust Half Dollars in my collection, as well as one from the Logan Collections, although I think only Bust Half Nuts would care about these pedigrees.

RYK · November 26, 2007 9:27AM

I enjoy searching for pedigreed coins that have lost their connection to the parent collection and re-establishing the connection, when possible. In general, I seek coins from the Bass, Norweb, Eliasberg, Garrett, Milas, etc. collections and always give them an extra look (and maybe slightly higher bid), so long as it is a coin that already interests me.

TwoSides2aCoin · November 26, 2007 9:30AM

I got a penny in change from the Warren Buffett collection. It was at Dairy Queen

northcoin · November 26, 2007 9:45AM

And that was probably without the help of an agent too at Warren's suggestion.

northcoin · November 27, 2007 3:22AM

RYK - When you have been able to establish the connections you have made, have you had success in getting the TPG services to note the provenance on the holders when resubmitted? If so, which TPG services are most amenable to adding the attribution?

lordmarcovan · November 27, 2007 3:32AM

BTW, northcoin, when I first replied to this thread, I was at work and our server there blocks Photobucket images, so all I saw of your coin was a red X. Now that I'm home and can see the pic, I must say it is quite lovely.

northcoin · November 27, 2007 5:49PM

Thanks.

northcoin · November 28, 2007 7:52AM

More stories?

tradedollarnut · November 28, 2007 7:59AM

This is the coin that got Mrs Norweb started in coin collecting. Oreville and I own it jointly:

I enjoy coins of great provenance - I always note the history of the coin when I can [see the writeups in my registry sets]. I agree with RYK that it's a great pleasure to reassociate a coin with its previous ownership.

1794half1839 · November 28, 2007 8:20AM

TDN, that is one awesome coin. I wish that the coins that started me on my collecting were as cool, but alas, they were a 1983-D Kennedy half, a Bicentennial Quarter and a wheat penny given to me by my Grandfather.

northcoin · November 29, 2007 10:16AM

That would be a great thread topic - what was the coin that started you on collecting?

jmski52 · November 29, 2007 12:27PM

northcoin and firstmint, thanks for the education. Your double eagle is a showstopper, and the story behind it is even better. What a great coin!

RYK · November 29, 2007 1:02PM

<< RYK - When you have been able to establish the connections you have made, have you had success in getting the TPG services to note the provenance on the holders when resubmitted? If so, which TPG services are most amenable to adding the attribution? >>

Yes, I have.

I reconnected the 1883 $3 to the Norweb collection, and NGC reslabbed the coin with the pedigree. (One of my great numismatic regrets was selling that one--I wish I could get it back.)

I also reconnected an 1868 (I think that was the date) proof quarter eagle to its Eliasberg provenance. The coin was in a dealer's inventory, and I informed him of the connection. He was able to get PCGS to indicate it on the slab. (One of my great regrets was not buying the coin for myself.)

ANR was selling the Eliasberg 1858 $10 in one of their auctions a few years back, which they did not know at the time. I emailed Frank Van Valen to inform him of this. The coin did not meet reserve, and I do not what happened to it after that. Toi my knowledge, it has not reappeared for public sale, and I have been looking for it!

I purchased the 1841-C $5 from the Norweb collection in an anonymous NGC slab and had it graded by PCGS with the Norweb pedigree.

I purchased the Duke's Creek 1857-D gold dollar from the Heritage Atlanta Spring ANA show in 2006 and, at the show, crossed the coin to the PCGS holder and had them swap the pedigree on the label from "Duke's Creek" to Eliasberg.

Finally, I recognized the 1855-O $5 from the Milas Collection (known to be top drawer to the rare date gold geeks) in the Pinnacle Collection sale by DWN and informed Doug of the provenance. I tried to buy the coin, but it was sold right from under me.

These are some of my best stories.

MidLifeCrisis · November 29, 2007 1:21PM

<< These are some of my best stories. >>

Wow RYK, you've had some great success at establishing connections to pedigrees. Impressive!

<< I enjoy coins of great provenance - I always note the history of the coin when I can. >>

I agree with tradedollarnut. A coin with a story and/or a famous pedigree is a more interesting coin.

lordmarcovan · November 29, 2007 2:24PM

<< This is the coin that got Mrs Norweb started in coin collecting. Oreville and I own it jointly: >>

Awesome. Speaking of Oreville and holey goldies, I'll go ahead and out him. He was my benefactor who bought the Eliasberg Zeno solidus on my behalf in the ANR sale, and held it for me for several months until I got around to paying him for it. A gentleman and a scholar, he is. (Literally).

northcoin · November 30, 2007 9:48AM

<< 

<< RYK - When you have been able to establish the connections you have made, have you had success in getting the TPG services to note the provenance on the holders when resubmitted? If so, which TPG services are most amenable to adding the attribution? >>

Yes, I have.

I reconnected the 1883 $3 to the Norweb collection, and NGC reslabbed the coin with the pedigree. (One of my great numismatic regrets was selling that one--I wish I could get it back.)

I also reconnected an 1868 (I think that was the date) proof quarter eagle to its Eliasberg provenance. The coin was in a dealer's inventory, and I informed him of the connection. He was able to get PCGS to indicate it on the slab. (One of my great regrets was not buying the coin for myself.)

ANR was selling the Eliasberg 1858 $10 in one of their auctions a few years back, which they did not know at the time. I emailed Frank Van Valen to inform him of this. The coin did not meet reserve, and I do not what happened to it after that. Toi my knowledge, it has not reappeared for public sale, and I have been looking for it!

I purchased the 1841-C $5 from the Norweb collection in an anonymous NGC slab and had it graded by PCGS with the Norweb pedigree.

I purchased the Duke's Creek 1857-D gold dollar from the Heritage Atlanta Spring ANA show in 2006 and, at the show, crossed the coin to the PCGS holder and had them swap the pedigree on the label from "Duke's Creek" to Eliasberg.

Finally, I recognized the 1855-O $5 from the Milas Collection (known to be top drawer to the rare date gold geeks) in the Pinnacle Collection sale by DWN and informed Doug of the provenance. I tried to buy the coin, but it was sold right from under me.

These are some of my best stories. >>

Thanks for the report. Most informative.

GFourDriver · November 30, 2007 10:26AM

This is by far the best thread I have seen on this forum during my brief membership here.... Thank you northcoin, firstmint and lordmarcovan for the best coin story yet. The knowledgeable collectors on here constantly amaze me.

John

northcoin · December 2, 2007 4:14PM

Thanks. Of course RYK's contributions merit mention too.

northcoin · December 5, 2007 4:47AM

Any more "storied" coins?

northcoin · December 7, 2007 6:52PM

?

northcoin · December 10, 2007 8:16AM

Going once, ----

RYK · December 18, 2007 6:43AM

Well, I just rediscovered an Eliasberg-pedigreed coin that is also traced back through the Max Mehl sale of the Atwater collection. It is up for auction in the upcoming Heritage FUN sale. To me, this is one of the most enjoyable pursuits in numismatics.

ColonialCoinUnion · December 18, 2007 9:13AM

OK, I'll bite - this is one of my favorite provenance stories.

In the May 2005 Stack's Ford auction I bought this coin:

And it was described like this by Stack's:

1786 Connecticut copper. MBR. Scholar's Head variety. M.3-D.1. R-5+. Fine to Very Fine, a nice example of a variety that always seems to come Good to Very Good. 173.1 gns. Very nice medium golden color on both sides. Obverse and reverse surfaces microgranular everywhere but not really disturbingly so. Some light flaws on the shield on the reverse but these are almost insignificant. Small planchet clip visible on the obverse at about 1:00. Both sides slightly off center, the obverse a little more so on the right with clear signs of the die edge visible on the left.

Pedigree unrecorded.

I found Stack's "Pedigree unrecorded" comment pretty interesting, since I knew that the coin was actually plated in Sylvester Crosby's 'The Early Coins of America' written in 1875, and still recognized today as an important reference for colonial collectors.

And so, I had it slabbed by PCGS like this:

northcoin · December 19, 2007 5:02PM

RYK and ColonialCoinUnion, thanks for the most interesting additions.

northcoin · January 8, 2008 10:24AM

Thanks for the kind words.

northcoin · January 10, 2008 10:09AM

Anyone find any interesting storied coins you have picked up at FUN this week?

RYK · January 10, 2008 10:11AM

<< Anyone find any interesting storied coins you have picked up at FUN this week? >>

I may have one for you later tonight.

northcoin · January 15, 2008 6:46AM

Still waiting for RYK's FUN story, but there is a good one if you scroll down on the linked thread to hear about Sunnywood's FUN acquisition!Scroll down for Sunnywood's Story

Collecting Coins with a story a/k/a provenance

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