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Stacks raises BP to 17.5%
ambro51
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Hmmmmmmm
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This is from their site:
5. Buyer’s Premiums. For U.S Coins and Currency Sales (auctioned by Stack’s Bowers Galleries), a Buyer's Premium of fifteen percent (15%) on each individual lot will be added to all purchases made by Bidders, except for reacquisitions by Consignors, regardless of affiliation with any group or organization, and will be based upon the total amount of the final bid.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>I will find another venue to sell my coins if that is true.....
what does selling have to do with a Buyers Premium?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>I will find another venue to sell my coins if that is true.....
what does selling have to do with a Buyers Premium? >>
Maybe less buyers??????
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>
<< <i>I will find another venue to sell my coins if that is true.....
what does selling have to do with a Buyers Premium? >>
This.
......................................
If true, then I guess I'll be reducing my bids by 2.13%.
At 15% they should be wearing a mask!
But ...
I bid in a lot of auctions. On this continent and two others. Coin auctions, antique auctions, art auctions, and barn auctions. If I bid at Sotheby's or Christies, BP is 24% or 25%. In Europe, it's typically somewhere between 17.5% and 20%. Same with Asia.
Stateside, most (every?) Heritage category but coins is higher than 15%, Spink (formerly Smythe) is higher than 15%. Most antique/art/americana sales are higher than 15%
I did just confirm the validity of what was posted here, and apparently the deal is this: the move starts with the June sale (not the sale currently online) and only counts on invoices (not individual bids, but total gross invoices) of under $50,000. It is a move that affects collectors and small dealers the most (which sucks for myself and most people posting here).
The bright side: if you choose to be represented by a dealer who spends over $50K, that dealer is still only being charged 15%. If you're used to paying that dealer 5% to represent you, it's now effectively just 2.5%. Also, if you bid through smallish dealers who may not spend over $50K in a typical sale (I only spend that much in one or two auctions a year, on average), you're helping that dealer keep costs down and helping yourself as well.
I remember people freaking out when the industry standard went from 10% to 15%. We all lived, even though it sucked at the time.
But then I don't sell.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
<< <i>I remember people freaking out when the industry standard went from 10% to 15%. We all lived, even though it sucked at the time. >>
At least when the industry standard went from 10% to 15%, it was that for EVERYONE, and didn't give large dealers a financial advantage over smaller dealers and collectors.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>
<< <i>I will find another venue to sell my coins if that is true.....
what does selling have to do with a Buyers Premium? >>
Everything !
Buyers will simply adjust their bids. Sellers get lower hammer prices. Although I'm sure there are occasional bidders who are oblivious or forget to factor in the juice...
It would make a lot more sense just to switch it to 17.5% for everyone.
When I submit $300k worth of bids and win $49k, I'm going to be extremely frustrated having to pay an extra 2%...not to mention, the outrageous shipping fees...
This clearly is to give a competitive advantage to the larger dealers and clients.
This is something that happens much more frequently in Europe as you can sometimes get a better BP at some houses, but very weird here.
Sounds like a dumb move and is awful PR if it gets mentioned elsewhere.
What is going on with coin auction auctions houses taking the Netflix model of sending customers away?
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
<< <i>
<< <i>I will find another venue to sell my coins if that is true.....
what does selling have to do with a Buyers Premium? >>
Buyers factor the buyer's premium into their final bid. If I am willing to pay $2000 for a coin (including buyer's premium), 85% of it would go the buyer and 15% would go to the auction house (absent some special agreement or negotiation). Now it would be 82.5% to the buyer and 17.5% for the house. It does make a difference.
<< <i>Sounds like they are trying to get the Credit Card fee back from smaller buyers who might be more likely to use a credit card instead of a check. A merchant can't set different prices for credit card purchases, so by setting an invoice level at $50,000 they catch the credit credit users. >>
I agree. Heritage has gone about this another way and nearly started a riot.
Like I said previously, sellers want and expect 102% or more of hammer, and buyers want to pay by credit card, leaving the auction house 10% or less of hammer to do all of the work. Expenses continue to go up, driving profits down. From a business standpoint, it makes a lot of sense.
<< <i>
<< <i>Sounds like they are trying to get the Credit Card fee back from smaller buyers who might be more likely to use a credit card instead of a check. A merchant can't set different prices for credit card purchases, so by setting an invoice level at $50,000 they catch the credit credit users. >>
I agree. Heritage has gone about this another way and nearly started a riot.
Like I said previously, sellers want and expect 102% or more of hammer, and buyers want to pay by credit card, leaving the auction house 10% or less of hammer to do all of the work. Expenses continue to go up, driving profits down. From a business standpoint, it makes a lot of sense. >>
In a "normal" environment, coin values would increase over time, giving the auction houses steadily increasing income while keeping the same buyers fee. They would cover all their expenses without increasing their 15% buyers fee as gem Morgans climbed from $150 to $175 to $200 and beyond. With the values of many collector coin stagnating or even falling in this economy, the real squeeze is coming from a steady commission rate on stagnant or lower-priced goods.
Long term, I believe that raising rates will have the effect of pushing more coin sales back through dealer channels. The trend for several years has been for many of the better coins to go through auction. However, when the auction houses are raising fees, and have consignors' coins for a very long time (weeks to months before auction, and several weeks to get paid after the auction), selling through a well-connected dealer and getting immediate payment will make a comeback.
Maybe this is what it takes for them to survive, but at some point these auction houses will overreach a bit more than the market is willing to bear.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>It's an additional $100 on a 4k coin though. >>
I have never seen a coin that I wanted for $4000 that I would not spend an additional $100.
Psychologically, however, the additional juice might make one less likely to bid (i.e.. perhaps a similar coin will show up at Heritage).
In this case, it looks like everyone is having to pay more for those who choose to use credit cards.
I think I'll just keep my coins.
The above "term and condition" is still on SB's website as of this morning.
Wondercoin
<< <i>"5. Buyer’s Premiums. For U.S Coins and Currency Sales (auctioned by Stack’s Bowers Galleries), a Buyer's Premium of fifteen percent (15%) on each individual lot will be added to all purchases made by Bidders, except for reacquisitions by Consignors, regardless of affiliation with any group or organization, and will be based upon the total amount of the final bid."
The above "term and condition" is still on SB's website as of this morning.
Wondercoin >>
Will you check every morning and report back to us?
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
Same. Wine, sports cards and antiquities. 19.5% seems to be the sweet spot. Coins at 15% was always the "bargin".
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Not many consignors are actually giving up 25-27.5% total unless they are clueless about buyer's/seller's fees. Probably in the end it won't make all that much
difference for most buyers and sellers. The clueless and unitiated will suffer the most and lose another 2.5%. For dealers that do offer a consignment service who typically
drum up consignments for major auction houses, their businesses will get a boost (ie Mark Feld and others). And I could see 2 dealers who might have been doing $25K
per auction team up to make it $50K. There will be a lot of combining of dealer consignments starting in June. Again, only the littlest people w/o connections will suffer.
The only true buyer's fees are when buyer's forget to do the math and back out their bids by the buyer's premium. In most cases buyer's "fees" only include the time, travel,
and living expenses for buyers to attend the auction. And the auction houses don't get that....the airlines and city businesses do. The consignor pays for everything else.
When I consigned with Bowers and Merena back in the late 1980's a typical total fee was about 13-18%. Over the past decade or so one could easily get a net consignment fee
of around 10-12%. So if anything consignment fees have been at a bargain rate for quite some time. Moving them up to 12-14% will still be competitive. And I'm sure if you
negotiate a no reserve (or very tightly set reserves) with the auction house, you can probably improve your rate by 1-2%. Hmmm, better make sure I have Mark Feld's number
handy.
<< <i>I absolutely hate this change because it puts those collectors who don't spend at least $50K per auction at a competitive disadvantage with dealers. >>
If that's so, I'm pretty sure it will also put those dealers who don't spend at least $50K per auction at a competitive disadvantage with collectors who do.
If Bowers and Stacks hadn't merged, would either or both of them have done this (ie does less competition make this an easier thing to do?)
What will Heritage do if anything?
I would also think a guy like Ian with his 10% fee may get a few more consignments.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
<< <i>I absolutely hate this change because it puts those collectors who don't spend at least $50K per auction at a competitive disadvantage with dealers. Whatever pricing policy is decided upon, it should be uniform and apply equally to everyone. >>
Didn't really read the entire thread before my prior post, but yeah, the unequal playing field really sucks and makes it hard to compete with the big dealers on some coins. Not a fan.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700