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My new "ugly as sin" Trade Dollar...
MilkmanDan
Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭✭✭
Ok, so every 3 months many of us here get a bunch of "eBay bucks" and we all have our own ideas on what to spend them on. I personally like to take my bucks and gamble on a coin or two that I wouldn't normally spend the money I actually worked for on. It's kind of like playing with the houses money, so if you lose, oh well.
So here's this quarter's eBay bucks purchase. It's a really gross looking Trade Dollar. Why would I purchase a RAW trade dollar that looks so funky you ask? Well, it happens to be a Type II/II, which are pretty darn hard to find. Because I love forum interaction, let's modify the "guess the grade" game and play guess the grade and list what problems you see with this coin. I've always wondered how PCGS labels genny coins that have multiple problems, how do they fit it all on the label?
Yes, I don't expect this one to grade, but I hope I can get it in a genuine holder... I'm also curious what you Trade Dollar experts think of this one, business strike or proof?
Here's a pic that isn't huge, but hopefully big enough to render an opinion of. I can zero in on an area if requested.
So here's this quarter's eBay bucks purchase. It's a really gross looking Trade Dollar. Why would I purchase a RAW trade dollar that looks so funky you ask? Well, it happens to be a Type II/II, which are pretty darn hard to find. Because I love forum interaction, let's modify the "guess the grade" game and play guess the grade and list what problems you see with this coin. I've always wondered how PCGS labels genny coins that have multiple problems, how do they fit it all on the label?
Yes, I don't expect this one to grade, but I hope I can get it in a genuine holder... I'm also curious what you Trade Dollar experts think of this one, business strike or proof?
Here's a pic that isn't huge, but hopefully big enough to render an opinion of. I can zero in on an area if requested.
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Comments
The packaging it arrived in smelled so strongly of cigarette smoke that I had to throw it out in the outside trash.
Scratch on the rev
Overall wouldnt be the worst coin for a type set
Sure is ugly
<< <i>I don't know much about trade dollars or grading them , but that's a real nice coin.The dark spotch isn't all that detracting once the eyes adjust..nice used example. >>
Thanks.
Personally I think it's a cool coin, but I figure some will find it abhorrent. I'd love to know the story behind the large dark spot on the obverse.
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<< <i>I don't know much about trade dollars or grading them , but that's a real nice coin.The dark spotch isn't all that detracting once the eyes adjust..nice used example. >>
Thanks.
Personally I think it's a cool coin, but I figure some will find it abhorrent. I'd love to know the story behind the large dark spot on the obverse. >>
The Chinese were pretty big on using ink and brushes/pens..lots of ink,could be. Im thinking if it were used for trade,in Chinese hands at one point.I know the UK Trade dollars often were.
<< <i>I don't think there is a premium associated with this die pairing. >>
I've heard otherwise and I've never seen a II/II that wasn't a proof, although my experience with T$'s is limited.
<< <i>The Chinese were pretty big on using ink and brushes/pens..lots of ink,could be. >>
That would be my guess, but who knows. No chop marks, but that doesn't rule out a trip to the orient. I have a tiny amount of hope that PCGS will think the "ink spot" is "authentically historic" and treat is as such.
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<< <i>I don't think there is a premium associated with this die pairing. >>
I've heard otherwise and I've never seen a II/II that wasn't a proof, although my experience with T$'s is limited. >>
To be fair after browsing HA I haven't found a II/II yet. Perhaps there is a premium.
Good luck but I don't think PCGS will slab it as a proof.
<< <i>Good luck but I don't think PCGS will slab it as a proof. >>
I'd rather they didn't, proofs aren't my thing. Thinking more about it, if the ink theory is correct then it's unlikely to be a proof. I doubt too many proof T$s went overseas.
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<< <i>I don't know much about trade dollars or grading them , but that's a real nice coin.The dark spotch isn't all that detracting once the eyes adjust..nice used example. >>
Thanks.
Personally I think it's a cool coin, but I figure some will find it abhorrent. I'd love to know the story behind the large dark spot on the obverse. >>
The Chinese were pretty big on using ink and brushes/pens..lots of ink,could be. Im thinking if it were used for trade,in Chinese hands at one point.I know the UK Trade dollars often were. >>
Ink Chop Mark are out there on Trades but are very rare, I do not think that is one of them but would need the coin in hand to be sure.
That said YOU SUCK, I have been looking for one of those for 4 years on ebay and never found one. Of all the weeks to be crushed at work. GRRRRRRRRRR
I grade the coin XF45 stained, it will most most likely end up in a Gen holder but who cares. That is a very rare coin and I am 95%+ that it is the super rare Business strike coin.
When I say rare, I am not talking 1916d or what not I am taking maybe 2-3dozen known with only 2-3 MS coins confirmed. It is the only coin I currently don't have in my set and much rarer than the "Key" coin the 78cc. It carries a huge premium which is admittedly hard to track as they don't knowingly trade publicly often if at all as they pass from one specialist to another in private treaties behind the scenes. Congrats on adding one of the keys so early and while a little ugly it is wholesome and mostly original looking and I love it.
The ebay pictures had me convinced it was a fake, the stars didn't look right and the denticles looked soft. I'm pretty relieved today that it was just the pictures.
Holding the coin in hand, the stain definitely looks like ink, but who's to say when it was applied? How often are chop marks found on 76-Ps? That might give us an idea on how likely it is that this is ink from China.
I have never seen one myself, they are quite scarce and this is a real coup.
congrats and amongst trade dollar fans you sir doth sucketh!
<< <i>Crypto, thank you for my very first YOU SUCK award. I actually feel very guilty, seeing as you as without your help I wouldn't have jumped on this one as quickly or at all. To be fair though, it was this past weekend and I hope you weren't at work.
The ebay pictures had me convinced it was a fake, the stars didn't look right and the denticles looked soft. I'm pretty relieved today that it was just the pictures.
Holding the coin in hand, the stain definitely looks like ink, but who's to say when it was applied? How often are chop marks found on 76-Ps? That might give us an idea on how likely it is that this is ink from China. >>
Most of the 76p's type 2/2 I have heard about are type 2/2 so it would make sense that it was an ink chop but I will leave that to DDR to chime in on. Is there any luster left? is it satin, chart wheel or PL? This is a major find for the series no doubt about it.
<< <i>Crypto, thank you for my very first YOU SUCK award. I actually feel very guilty, seeing as you as without your help I wouldn't have jumped on this one as quickly or at all. To be fair though, it was this past weekend and I hope you weren't at work.
The ebay pictures had me convinced it was a fake, the stars didn't look right and the denticles looked soft. I'm pretty relieved today that it was just the pictures.
Holding the coin in hand, the stain definitely looks like ink, but who's to say when it was applied? How often are chop marks found on 76-Ps? That might give us an idea on how likely it is that this is ink from China. >>
The weak dentils are characteristic for the II/II it looks like. The proof I linked you to is a 65 yet it has a very weak strike.
Congrats, one of the Trade dollar guru's has spoken
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<< <i>Crypto, thank you for my very first YOU SUCK award. I actually feel very guilty, seeing as you as without your help I wouldn't have jumped on this one as quickly or at all. To be fair though, it was this past weekend and I hope you weren't at work.
The ebay pictures had me convinced it was a fake, the stars didn't look right and the denticles looked soft. I'm pretty relieved today that it was just the pictures.
Holding the coin in hand, the stain definitely looks like ink, but who's to say when it was applied? How often are chop marks found on 76-Ps? That might give us an idea on how likely it is that this is ink from China. >>
The weak dentils are characteristic for the II/II it looks like. The proof I linked you to is a 65 yet it has a very weak strike.
Congrats, one of the Trade dollar guru's has spoken
I agree with all of stealer points. And the 76p is notorious for being hard to tell apart for UNCs to Proofs and the TPG's shouldn't be trusted by default.
The coin is 100% real and the only two questions I would have is:
1- Is it a BS or Proof striking?
2- Is the stain a Ink chop?
I say Business strike because what look to be rounded rims and a very weak right eagles claw. Also the over all look says not struck mutiple times like the rounded date numrials and the lack of super hair detail and mushy ropes around the hay bails. The kind of thing that really pop with a 2nd striking. I would be curious to the luster too. At worst you have a mishandled Proof with a value of 750$
<< <i>Is there any luster left? is it satin, cart wheel or PL? This is a major find for the series no doubt about it. >>
If I had to say I'd describe it as weak cart wheel. It's pretty obscured by the dark toning, I better dip it.
The obverse is a little better than the reverse for luster. Holding it up in the light, I'm actually seeing some neat blue tone on the reverse though.
Man this sure looks like a brush stroke and ink, how cool. That's interesting about the chop-marked 76Ps being mostly II/II. Can't wait to hear more opinions. This has pretty much made my day, and probably my week. Now I just have to pray that Crypto and the rest of you don't cut me off.
I don't think a mishandled proof [that doesn't look like a proof and is darkly stained] would sell for much more than a circulation strike. Just sayin.
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<< <i>Is there any luster left? is it satin, cart wheel or PL? This is a major find for the series no doubt about it. >>
If I had to say I'd describe it as weak cart wheel. It's pretty obscured by the dark toning, I better dip it.
The obverse is a little better than the reverse for luster. Holding it up in the light, I'm actually seeing some neat blue tone on the reverse though.
Man this sure looks like a brush stroke and ink, how cool. That's interesting about the chop-marked 76Ps being mostly II/II. Can't wait to hear more opinions. This has pretty much made my day, and probably my week. Now I just have to pray that Crypto and the rest of you don't cut me off.
You read that wrong, Most 76p 2/2 I know of are chop marked. Most 76p Chop marks are type 1/2 but still rare in the context of Chop Marks
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<< <i>Is there any luster left? is it satin, cart wheel or PL? This is a major find for the series no doubt about it. >>
If I had to say I'd describe it as weak cart wheel. It's pretty obscured by the dark toning, I better dip it.
The obverse is a little better than the reverse for luster. Holding it up in the light, I'm actually seeing some neat blue tone on the reverse though.
Man this sure looks like a brush stroke and ink, how cool. That's interesting about the chop-marked 76Ps being mostly II/II. Can't wait to hear more opinions. This has pretty much made my day, and probably my week. Now I just have to pray that Crypto and the rest of you don't cut me off.
From Bowers: Most surviving 1876 trade dollars are Type I/II. However, among chopmarked coins, the Type I/I seems to be more available than the Type I/II; the explanation for this is unknown. In general, chopmarked 1876 trade dollars are rare. Perhaps after demonetization, fewer 1876 Type I/II trade dollars went overseas, while increasing numbers reached citizens by way of unscrupulous bosses and company stores.
<< <i>At worst you have a mishandled Proof with a value of 750$
I don't think a mishandled proof [that doesn't look like a proof and is darkly stained] would sell for much more than a circulation strike. Just sayin. >>
It all depends on the holder but I have seen PF 12 Trade dollar trade for 500$+ For some people that is the only way they get get a 19th cen Proof coin. You're thinking logically about something that derives it value by triggering an emotional responsive out of a collector who doesn't see special coins as often as others IMO.
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<< <i>You read that wrong, Most 76p 2/2 I know of are chop marked. Most 76p Chop marks are type 1/2 but still rare in the context of Chop Marks >>
Got it, I see what you meant.
<< <i>
<< <i>At worst you have a mishandled Proof with a value of 750$
I don't think a mishandled proof [that doesn't look like a proof and is darkly stained] would sell for much more than a circulation strike. Just sayin. >>
It all depends on the holder but I have seen PF 12 Trade dollar trade for 500$+ For some people that is the only way they get get a 19th cen Proof coin. You're thinking logically about something that derives it value by triggering an emotional responsive out of a collector who doesn't see special coins as often as others IMO. >>
That was probably a proof only date - in which case there is date demand.
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<< <i>Crypto, thank you for my very first YOU SUCK award. I actually feel very guilty, seeing as you as without your help I wouldn't have jumped on this one as quickly or at all. To be fair though, it was this past weekend and I hope you weren't at work.
The ebay pictures had me convinced it was a fake, the stars didn't look right and the denticles looked soft. I'm pretty relieved today that it was just the pictures.
Holding the coin in hand, the stain definitely looks like ink, but who's to say when it was applied? How often are chop marks found on 76-Ps? That might give us an idea on how likely it is that this is ink from China. >>
The weak dentils are characteristic for the II/II it looks like. The proof I linked you to is a 65 yet it has a very weak strike.
Congrats, one of the Trade dollar guru's has spoken
I say Business strike because what look to be rounded rims and a very weak right eagles claw. Also the over all look says not struck mutiple times like the rounded date numrials and the lack of super hair detail and mushy ropes around the hay bails. The kind of thing that really pop with a 2nd striking. I would be curious to the luster too. At worst you have a mishandled Proof with a value of 750$ >>
That's what hinted BS to me as well. The pearls or whatever on the crown are not nearly defined enough either.
<< <i>and from Bowers' "Encyclopedia" pp.991-2, "...Type II/II. Very rare. Apparently only a few were struck. From a survey of 21 auction appearances of mint state trade dollars, Mark Borckardt found only one of the Type II/II issue." >>
The only auction record I can ever find of a type 2/2 UNC or business strike is for
MS-61 PL. Ex - Bowers & Merena Galleries' "The Cabinet of Lucien M. LaRiviere, Part III", May 21, 2001, Lot 149, "Type II/II, not illustrated, sold for $1,840.00
And our very own Keoj tells me he saw that coin and was convinced it was really a proof. He has shared a few others with me but I have no access to records of them.
P.S. If that is ink (most of which were organic during this period), wouldn't acetone help lighten the stain without harming the coin?
<< <i>I would give it a dip (and I rarely say that; I usually like original coins). Interesting variety though.
P.S. If that is ink (most of which were organic during this period), wouldn't acetone help lighten the stain without harming the coin? >>
Maybe, but I wouldn't touch it.
<< <i> To be fair though, it was this past weekend and I hope you weren't at work.
>>
To be fair I was with my wife and kid so kind of like work
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>That a nice trade dollar, don't dip it! I liked so much I had to go see what you payed for it just to make myself jealous, oh well on with the hunt I go. Maybe i'll bag a nice one at my local show coming up next month. p.s. looks sharp for the strike here's hoping its a proof! >>
Don't worry, the last thing I would do is dip this coin!
Cool story about the BIN price, the number 209 has been a recurring number in my life, for whatever reason. It was my dorm room number in college, it was the suite number on the bungalow for my honeymoon, etc. It just seems to come up a lot. So this past Sunday I'm sitting on the couch perusing eBay and I see this coin appear. First thing to check...Type II obverse - nice! Next thing to check, price.... $209! I kind of took that as a sign that this was one for my collection.
obverse (large)
reverse (large)
The potential issues I see with this coin are:
- mysterious stain on the obverse, center
- rim ding at 3o'clock, obverse
- minor rim push at 6o'clock, reverse
- gash at 10o'clock, reverse, into the N in UNITED
Otherwise, there are the normal marks in the fields, there doesn't appear to be any hairlines. Taking all of the above into account, none of these are slam dunk problems, but any one of them, or the combination may put this one in a genuine holder. I am fully expecting that and would be delightfully surprised at any other result.
<< <i>Great find. Congrats! >>
Thanks 123cents, its been a good day.
type2,CCHunter.
"Coins that are damaged because of improper storage may be rejected. Corrosion is caused by storage in areas of high humidity, sea salvage coins, and coins found in the ground. Toning that is excessively dark or heavy, or which burns into the surface of the coin, may be rejected."
Even so, I'm super excited about this coin. It's my kind of coin, a coin with a story that I'll never know which makes it all that much more exciting to dream about.
Outstanding. All that I can say is wow. It took me many years to find a business strike 76 II/II. They are very, very rare. Proof II/II's are scarce, business strikes are very rare. It does indeed look like a buisness strike. I'll send you an email on another "tell" that I use to distinguish a Proof vs business strike. Well done. I am only aware of 3-4 in mintstate.
Do you have the coin? Can you tell if there is PL fields or not?
Again, congrats.
keoj
A 76-P II/II Trade dollar is extremely rare, as is any type of chopmarked 76-P Trade dollar is rare. But that said, a surprisingly high percentage of the chopmarked 76-P Trade dollars I've seen are II/II. But since the sample size is so low, I am not sure you can make a generalization based on that.
A 76-P II/II does sell for a premium among Trade dollar specialists because of the obverse/reverse combination. I can imagine that if another shows up on eBay there will be a bidding war between Crypto, Keoj, myself and several others.
I've seen a number of foreign coins with ink chops. But not many U.S. Trade dollars. And they don't look like that. My guess is it is a regular stain.
That said, you made a great purchase. I am envious. Congratulations!
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
<< <i>Congrats Dan. If I had that coin I would definately give it an acetone bath to eliminate any possibilities of pvc residue and it might lighten the area of stain. The coin will not get a straight grade anyways and acetone wont hurt the coin. I always dip every coin I buy in acetone just to make sure there aren't any pvc or oils on the surface that might cause a problem in the future. >>
daves advice is verg good but I would add if you chose to do that start out slow and try a test spot to ensure it doesn't dramaticly chage the color to something worse
Based on some great information from Keoj, the jury is still out on business strike vs. proof, but may lean more towards the proof camp at this moment.
I did some internet research on ink marks last night and this certainly doesn't match the banker's ink stamp type mark seen on some coins. On the other hand, the mark does look like ink possibly made by a brush stroke, so I can only imagine where it came from.
<< <i>Thanks everyone, this is fun.
Based on some great information from Keoj, the jury is still out on business strike vs. proof, but may lean more towards the proof camp at this moment.
I did some internet research on ink marks last night and this certainly doesn't match the banker's ink stamp type mark seen on some coins. On the other hand, the mark does look like ink possibly made by a brush stroke, so I can only imagine where it came from. >>
How does the coin look in hand? Even with the bigger pictures I still think it's a BS FWIW
<< <i>Were proof dies repurposed for striking circulating coins that year? >>
Was just discussing this with Crypto, this was likely the case. If anyone knows someone who worked at the Philly mint back in 1876, can you please have them PM me, I have a few questions I need answered.
I paid for the variety attribution as a Type II/II, but alas this will not be the first II/II graded by PCGS. Still a very cool coin that has been a thrill to study.
Edit: I had it true-viewed so if you check back in a day or so, the picture should be up.