1847 Seated half (questionable authenticity) from yesterday
rhedden
Posts: 6,632 ✭✭✭✭✭
Yesterday, I posted pics of this 1847 Seated half dollar that I purchased on eBay. While the first few posters thought it was a good buy, about 75% of forum members agreed it was a fake in the end. I had initially convinced myself that it was a late die state with extensive die polishing, which would have led to the prooflike appearance of the coin and the thinner-than-usual lettering. Examples of similar coins are the 1845-O No Drapery Seated half and the 1838 Small Stars half dime. I probably spent 3 hours after work looking at images of 1847 Seated halves in different online archives before I convinced myself that there are none out there with these characteristics; all pieces, including proofs, have heavy, block-like letters. What finally convinced me is that something is not right with the lettering in LIBERTY. This coin is likely an extremely well-made counterfeit, and the counterfeiter went so far as to fake realistic carbon spots and add toning. I have NEVER seen a Chinese fake Seated half before, in contrast to Seated Dollars and Trade Dollars, which have been faked en masse. However, could this be the first one of many to turn up? Note that 1847 is the most common date of counterfeit Seated Dollar by a mile. I'm still not 100% certain it's fake, but I would have liked to weigh it and then do a reed count, had the coin been shipped to me.
The good news is that the seller is indeed legit, and he canceled my transaction upon request. I'm sure he did not think it was fake, and may still think it is real. If it is fake, it would have fooled a lot of people, including me, a person who specializes in Seated material and has collected coins for 32 years. Now watch someone else buy it and get it graded SP66 at PCGS.
These images are a genuine 1847 half dollar from my collection for comparison.
The good news is that the seller is indeed legit, and he canceled my transaction upon request. I'm sure he did not think it was fake, and may still think it is real. If it is fake, it would have fooled a lot of people, including me, a person who specializes in Seated material and has collected coins for 32 years. Now watch someone else buy it and get it graded SP66 at PCGS.
These images are a genuine 1847 half dollar from my collection for comparison.
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Comments
TD
But 'Stone' brought up a good point asking "where's the rims??"
Then I looked carefully at yours and other genuine pieces.
One red flag on yours is at the very tip of the toes, there doesn't seem to be a small border, whereas there's a border on genuine coins.
My hunch now is the coin is a well crafted counterfeit piece.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
The takeaway I'm getting since joining the forums is that eBay may be more trouble than it's worth- or at least requires much more exhaustive due diligence.
The absence of the upset rim all the way around with even denticles threw up a flag for me. That plus the thinner letters.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
<< <i>I jumped the gun yesterday and called it an ms64.
But 'Stone' brought up a good point asking "where's the rims??"
Then I looked carefully at yours and other genuine pieces.
One red flag on yours is at the very tip of the toes, there doesn't seem to be a small border, whereas there's a border on genuine coins.
My hunch now is the coin is a well crafted counterfeit piece. >>
The detailing around the toes can be ground away on a genuine die.
I didn't like the flat high parts of USA. They look "motheaten."
TD
Thankfully, the Secret Service is finally getting interested in the problem.
<< <i>Assuming that these fantastic counterfeits start gaining speed and showing up in droves, the impact I assume would be for the collectors to stop buying raw and stop buying off ebay and only purchase specimens in slabs. The TPG's wuld obviously benenfit from the scare, which is interesting....almost like they would want to see more counterfeits hit the market in a way if you know what I mean. Prices for these types of coins would rise changing the colelcting landscape ie no more of the raw steals. And coins would accordingly increase in value across the board. The new thing concept would be slabs for all and everything to completely protect oneself. And all raw would be frowned upon and shunned forcing the counterfeitors to duplicate the slabs themselves or lose their marketshare. >>
Too late folks it's been that way for several years already IMO.
<< <i>Assuming that these fantastic counterfeits start gaining speed and showing up in droves, the impact I assume would be for the collectors to stop buying raw and stop buying off ebay and only purchase specimens in slabs. The TPG's wuld obviously benenfit from the scare, which is interesting....almost like they would want to see more counterfeits hit the market in a way if you know what I mean. Prices for these types of coins would rise changing the colelcting landscape ie no more of the raw steals. And coins would accordingly increase in value across the board. The new thing concept would be slabs for all and everything to completely protect oneself. And all raw would be frowned upon and shunned forcing the counterfeitors to duplicate the slabs themselves or lose their marketshare. >>
What logic did you use to draw the conclusion above. I don't follow. The rest made sense, but that didn't. Just curious....Mike
Id gamble that the TPGs arn't all that thrilled about more fake coins comming in.
That would be a safe gamble.More fakes ultimately results in more discouraged collectors.
Discouraged collectors quit the hobby.The customer base shrinks for dealers and TPG's alike.
Coin collecting is a buyers market.
No buyers,no money.
It's a no brainer.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>Discouraged collectors quit the hobby.The customer base shrinks for dealers and TPG's alike. >>
Yes, the likely result, watch out below.
<< <i>Id gamble that the TPGs arn't all that thrilled about more fake coins comming in. >>
There are two clashing effects here -- one that would help TPGs and one that would hurt them.
On one hand, the need to buy "slabbed" would rise, so presumably that could mean more business for the TPGs. BUT...
Overall, this could reduce interest in the hobby enough to offset (or even more than offset) the increased need for TPG services in the marketplace.
<< <i>The confusing thing is that minor details in the sandal could very well differ between different die marriages or even die states. There are several "WB" varieties for 1847, so could we really indict the coin based on a minor variation? >>
I am certainly not an authority on the die states or die marriages of that particular date, and the difference in clarity and size of the two images makes even seeing these differences between the two difficult. Just a casual observation of what I saw, not an indictment. Maybe someone with more knowledge of the varieties of this date can give their opinion. In looking through the archives in Heritage I'm not seeing the "flat" foot on the overdate, the '45-O or the proof (
Lost my WB when moving 7 yrs ago
TRUTH
Is the wing always close to the leaves on all known real dies?